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Thread: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Quote Originally Posted by johnno View Post
    Suzy, very nice! What timber are you using for the stringers, just out of interest?

    ps: my wife just looked over my shoulder and asked whose 'very organised' shed that was!!!
    I'm using 20mm x 12mm Tassie oak. From memory the plan calls for 20x15, but I figure I can go a tad undersize because the Tassie oak is good strong stuff. There's not a lot of quality timber available locally. I don't want to use Meranti because of sustainability concerns, jarrah is way too heavy (though I'd like to use it for the outer gunwale), western red cedar is way too soft, and pine is questionable... So Tassie oak it is.

    I think my garage is a complete shambles. It used to be reasonably organised when it was just motorbike stuff and metalworking tools, but I've been acquiring lots of woodworking tools and just don't have anywhere to put them. My kitchen is organised though!

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    That's good to know Suzy. I am using it too, at least it's what is called Tassie Oak up here. Others have said to me that what I buy is actually probably mountain ash from Victoria but I am not an expert in identifying timber species by any means.

    Looking at your build again, partly because of the way the Navigator is put together, but also because of your 'relative' neatness, it reminds me of a aircraft build. It's certainly very sculptural at all stages, but that might be the architect in me speaking.

    Onwards! And please don't post photographs of your kitchen or my wife might get jealous, and I'd be diverted from boatbuilding to more indoor modifications!
    Flat bottomed boats, you make the rockin' world go round.............

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Got the inner gunwales installed. They turned out quite easy. The secret was to steam them in two halves, then glue the now thoroughly bent timber down.



    I'm really liking the curves.

    I added some proper hatches in the forward seat, to make the area more useable.



    Fitting the centerboard turned out to be fairly straightforward as well. I just enlarged the holes to 25mm and fitted some turned bronze bushes, then got Perry to push the (unfinished) pivot pin through while I held the board up while laying under the boat.



    Yes, that is a 5mm ball driver stopping the centerboard from dropping back down.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Really coming along, looks great!

    But needs a cat for scale...
    "what could go wrong?"

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    I had a couple of goes at doing a mast tabernacle. The first one is shown below:



    I thought I could make a piece up that slid down either side of the spine, and attach it to the sides. Alas the reinforcing on the spine was pretty thin, so the attachment point was only about 30mm deep. The end result is it looked really dumb, a big heavy lump of jarrah sitting on a spindly spine.

    So after much moaning, I chucked it out and started again. I hacked away at the spine and removed the reinforcing piece. I put a thicker one on, along with a horizontal bridge, so the spine at this point forms a T shape. The bridge piece is now wider than the tabernacle base, so the tabernacle sits on top, rather than going down the sides. I think it's a big improvement. The tabernacle is also quite a bit beefier than the original, despite looking smaller. Rather than a 20mm thick bit of Jarrah running down the back to locate the back of the mast, I made a 60mm thick 45 degree wedge. I'll cut the base of the mast to 45 degrees to locate solidly on that.



    I also finished my inner deck support piece. I decided to do a curved piece joining the front to the king plank, making the back of the fo'c's'le a simple curve.


  6. #76
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Quote Originally Posted by johnno View Post
    That's good to know Suzy. I am using it too, at least it's what is called Tassie Oak up here. Others have said to me that what I buy is actually probably mountain ash from Victoria but I am not an expert in identifying timber species by any means.
    Just so you know, Tassie Oak is not really any particular tree at all. It's one of three trees:

    Eucalyptus delegatensi: also known as alpine ash, gum-topped stringybark, and white-top

    Eucalyptus obliqua, commonly known as Australian Oak, Brown Top, Brown Top Stringbark, Messmate, Messmate Stringybark, Stringybark and Tasmanian Oak

    and more/most commonly:

    Eucalyptus regnans, known variously by the common names giant ash, mountain ash, Victorian ash, swamp gum, Tasmanian oak or stringy gum

    The names are from Wiki, but that sits well with my understanding that Tasmanian Oak(TM) is just that, its a brand name of eucalyptus that may or may not a lot to do with Tasmania (there are large stands of regnans down there). The tassie oak at bunnings et. al. may come from a mixed supply with similar characteristics and properties. That said, it's classified and tested to fit within the Tassie Oak classification, so it'll all be practically the same.

    Down here in Vic, Tassie oak is interchangeably called Victorian ash/Tasmanian oak with equal indiscretion!

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Quote Originally Posted by asrainox View Post
    Just so you know, Tassie Oak is not really any particular tree at all. It's one of three trees
    Yes, I know. I find it odd that people always bring this up when you mention tassie oak. Most wood has different species names and marketing names. Oak. Teak. Mahogany. The common names for any particular bit of timber generally encompass a range of different species of tree.

    Whats important is that when I buy timber marketed as tassie oak, I get timber with a certain set of characteristics. Eucalypt. Straight grain. Medium density. High strength. Light colour with somewhat open grain. Same as if I bought a piece of mahogany, I'd expect dark timber, etc.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Quote Originally Posted by suzyj View Post
    I'm using 20mm x 12mm Tassie oak. From memory the plan calls for 20x15, but I figure I can go a tad undersize because the Tassie oak is good strong stuff. There's not a lot of quality timber available locally. I don't want to use Meranti because of sustainability concerns, jarrah is way too heavy (though I'd like to use it for the outer gunwale), western red cedar is way too soft, and pine is questionable... So Tassie oak it is.

    I think my garage is a complete shambles. It used to be reasonably organised when it was just motorbike stuff and metalworking tools, but I've been acquiring lots of woodworking tools and just don't have anywhere to put them. My kitchen is organised though!
    I used Tasmanian Oak for the stringers in my Pathfinder build. At 20x40mm there was absolutely no way they were going to go around the bend and twist needed. I wound up ripping every single one down the middle, and laminating the two 20x20ish strips in situ - which was actually much less traumatic than it sounds. I had scarphs in most of the stringers, about 12:1 IIRC, and only had one let go on one of the rubbing strakes.
    Apart from the odd sap inclusion, it is fantastic straight grain timber, and seemed to glue up well. It looks nice finished bright, too.
    Damn sure my garage never looked like yours! Nice tidy build all round.

    Eta it was sold as Victorian Ash, here in NZ. 200x25 quarter sawn boards about 5m long.

    Pete
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  9. #79
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Quote Originally Posted by suzyj View Post

    Whats important is that when I buy timber marketed as tassie oak, I get timber with a certain set of characteristics. Eucalypt. Straight grain. Medium density. High strength. Light colour with somewhat open grain. Same as if I bought a piece of mahogany, I'd expect dark timber, etc.
    That's true enough! That's why I ended by saying : "That said, it's classified and tested to fit within the Tassie Oak classification, so it'll all be practically the same".

    It's not a bug-bear of mine or anything but just that Johnno seemed unsure whether his wood was Tas Oak or Vic Ash, when actually it's both.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    After a bit of a detour prototyping my mast, I started planking this week. John recommends starting with a nice little bit at the aft end, stitched and glued to the floor. Then a second piece forward of there up to bulkhead 3. For once I did exactly as I was told and just put it on, exactly to plan. Here's a photo showing the midships port garboard plank (say that five times quickly!) all clamped up.



    I used mainly spring clamps except toward the front where it's starting to bend, where I had to use some proper F clamps. This was a whole lot of plank - I went nuts with the epoxy, getting it on my clothes, in my hair...

    After everthing had set up I cleaned up the excess goop and put some bits of 200gsm fibreglass tape along the seam to strengthen it.



    Now for the hard bit, the bow.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Looking fantastic Suzy!

    Rick

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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Very tidy build, Suzy! What are you using to seal the plywood? Epoxy? CPES?

    It's nice to see a bit of hardware and rigging (CB pendant?) on there.

    Cheers,

    Mike
    "near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    I had to google to find out what CPES was. I'm using ordinary bote cote epoxy for everything.

    I did the port bow garboard plank today. Turned out heaps easier than I was dreading. I used lots of spreader clamps off the building frame rather than clamping in to the stringers.



    Here's me getting another dose of epoxy in my hair.


  14. #84
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Great pictures, great work. I can't believe how neat and tidy you get all of your fillets, epoxy joints, and wood-to-wood joints. Mine, um, arent. A terrific project. Thanks for sharing from all the way around the world.

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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Instead of just clicking on "Subscribe to this thread" I think I will give a few comments and questions.

    First, its refreshing to see a woman in boatbuilding. I wish I could get my wife of 20 years into building a boat with me.

    Second, I really like your attention to detail.

    Third, (and this is something I have wondered about before on other build threads) How do you keep water from leaking in around the pivot point on the centerboard?

    Fourth, Did you remember limber holes to allow water to drain back or forward to the lowest point? I see a couple in the pictures.

    Fifth, nice cat, our all white cat died, and we now have a mutt, but I miss the white one. Don't tell my wife....
    Fish and ships or is that chips

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Sixth, sorry to be such a pain, How is the mast tabernacle attached to the boat? I like how you attached the centerboard case, that seems a lot stronger than just butting the plywood together with epoxy and fillets....
    Fish and ships or is that chips

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Nice boat......
    I too built my Navigator as a Sloop though I did also put in all features required should I decide to change to the Yawl at a later date.
    However " Lady Eliana" is only a powered dinghy at the moment as I have run out of money to complete the rig....though I hope to one day.
    I once thought I was wrong, but I was wrong, I wasn't wrong.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Quote Originally Posted by shade of knucklehead View Post
    Instead of just clicking on "Subscribe to this thread" I think I will give a few comments and questions.

    First, its refreshing to see a woman in boatbuilding. I wish I could get my wife of 20 years into building a boat with me.

    Second, I really like your attention to detail.

    Third, (and this is something I have wondered about before on other build threads) How do you keep water from leaking in around the pivot point on the centerboard?

    Fourth, Did you remember limber holes to allow water to drain back or forward to the lowest point? I see a couple in the pictures.

    Fifth, nice cat, our all white cat died, and we now have a mutt, but I miss the white one. Don't tell my wife....
    First, I know I'm not the first woman to build a boat. Before starting this I read through Barrett Faneuf's flickr stream from end to end. She makes me feel humble. I'm lucky in that my husband helps me out, whenever something is awkward to hold etc.

    Second, all I see when I look at the boat is dodgy bits, where things aren't fitting properly, where fillets are untidy, where lines aren't fair... I do my best, but my best often doesn't reach my own standards. I'm getting better as I go though. I look at some of the early work I did on this and cringe.

    Third, the centerboard pivot is a work in progress. The pin needs to be cut to length and threaded for a cap held in by a screw. The bushings have a groove for an o-ring, which is held in place by the yet-to-be-made cap. I'm hoping that will keep the water out.

    Fourth, there are limber holes in bulkheads 1 thru 4. I've made a drain tube under the forward thwart, so water can drain from the front of the boat to the cockpit without filling the watertight thwart. I didn't do any limber holes in the cockpit seats, as they're supposed to be watertight. The holes in bulkheads 1, 2, and 3 are alongside the keelson rather than at the garboard.

    Fifth, my cat's really gorgeous. I love him to bits, though he barely tolerates me.

    Sixth, the tabernacle is screwed down with four 12 ga x 51mm screws, plus lots of epoxy, into the 25mm thick plank atop the spine. The plank is held to the spine by ten 8ga x 38mm screws, and yet more epoxy. It's not going anywhere. I'm confident I could lift the boat by the tabernacle.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Help!

    I put the starboard garboard bow plank on yesterday. When I took the clamps off this morning, I found this:



    Looks like the split only goes down a little further than the area I'd be cutting back with the gain, so perhaps I could fill it with epoxy and continue???

    I'm really not looking forward to removing this plank and redoing it.

    Edit: Here's the damage in context:

    Last edited by suzyj; 11-17-2014 at 06:48 PM.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    The second ply layer in from the outside looks like a factory join, not a void or a break of that layer. Probably weak at that internal butt joint, causing all the stress to go to the outer thin layer. I would inject epoxy with a syringe, place plastic sheet or wax paper over the area, and clamp a piece of slightly thicker (9 mm) ply over it. Clamp at the break, and just to each side of it, then look at the plank edge to be sure you are not causing a hard spot. Most of the visible damage will be planed away for the bevel, this will be fine.

    Rick

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    In that first photo, the fracture seems to align with a very straight-edged split in the first thick light coloured lamination. Is that right or is it an optical illusion? If it's right, it might explain the failure. Also, the plank doesn't seem to be glued to the stringer back from the split? Or is what I'm looking at the internal face lamination breaking away from the next lamination? Maybe it is the latter. But that could also explain why it split there.

    Personally, I would get as much epoxy as possible dribbled down into the split, then reclamp it back together with a 100mm square 19mm thick ply plates either side of the plank (plastic separation layer as well) to get it squashed back together as smoothly as possible. I'd also of course clamp it separately back to the stringer. I'm pretty sure that will do the job. The epoxy will stuff your plane a bit when you cut the gain. Any slight imperfection left can be sanded away before finishing coats applied.

    The trick is to stop the spilt going farther. But I certainly wouldn't pull the plank off, nor would I look at reinforcing with a butt block inside as yet. Good luck. These trials are sent to test our patience.
    Flat bottomed boats, you make the rockin' world go round.............

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    What they said!
    Fish and ships or is that chips

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Quote Originally Posted by suzyj View Post
    First, I know I'm not the first woman to build a boat. Before starting this I read through Barrett Faneuf's flickr stream from end to end. She makes me feel humble. I'm lucky in that my husband helps me out, whenever something is awkward to hold etc.

    Second, all I see when I look at the boat is dodgy bits, where things aren't fitting properly, where fillets are untidy, where lines aren't fair... I do my best, but my best often doesn't reach my own standards. I'm getting better as I go though. I look at some of the early work I did on this and cringe.

    Third, the centerboard pivot is a work in progress. The pin needs to be cut to length and threaded for a cap held in by a screw. The bushings have a groove for an o-ring, which is held in place by the yet-to-be-made cap. I'm hoping that will keep the water out.

    Fourth, there are limber holes in bulkheads 1 thru 4. I've made a drain tube under the forward thwart, so water can drain from the front of the boat to the cockpit without filling the watertight thwart. I didn't do any limber holes in the cockpit seats, as they're supposed to be watertight. The holes in bulkheads 1, 2, and 3 are alongside the keelson rather than at the garboard.

    Fifth, my cat's really gorgeous. I love him to bits, though he barely tolerates me.

    Sixth, the tabernacle is screwed down with four 12 ga x 51mm screws, plus lots of epoxy, into the 25mm thick plank atop the spine. The plank is held to the spine by ten 8ga x 38mm screws, and yet more epoxy. It's not going anywhere. I'm confident I could lift the boat by the tabernacle.
    That's normal...we all have bits we reckon could have been done better
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Many thanks for the good advice guys, It does appear to have broken at an inner ply join. The back of the ply is well and truly joined to the stringer - It's delaminated.

    So I just cheated shamelessly. I ducked up to work and borrowed a high zoot factor paste dispenser, which we normally use for dispensing tiny little dots of highly viscous solder paste on printed circuit boards. I used it to dispense highly viscous epoxy deep into the fracture.

    Here's the mixing process. I sieved the silica to ensure it's free of lumps.



    Here's the dispenser. A cool little tool that allows you to dispense beautifully measured dots of glue. I just ran it for a couple of minutes to put about 1.5ml of goop deep into the fracture.



    You can see how deep the needle is buried in the fracture here:



    And finally I clamped some ply on the face with builders film to stop things sticking together.



    Fingers crossed!

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Should do the trick very well.
    Flat bottomed boats, you make the rockin' world go round.............

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    @Suzy - The repair should be fine and all but unnoticeable to someone who didn't know to look for it. BUT.....
    You've created a monster.
    Now and forevermore people will be asking where they can beg, borrow, buy or steal one of those high-end epoxy applicators.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Hmm, we have Nordson pneumatic dispensers where I work. Had not considered borrowing one before...

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Hey, that worked surprisingly well!

    Here's what I got this morning after pulling the clamps off, giving the face a few wipes with 80 grit emery to remove the excess epoxy, and cutting the plank down flush with the stringer:



    The fracture is right in the middle of the photo. If you look really carefully at the top of the fracture you'll see the small 1mm odd void (now filled with epoxy) in the ply immediately under the face that caused all this trouble.

    It's as fair as I'm able to tell, looking at it from every conceivable angle.

    Again, thanks Rick and Johno! I was all ready to start tearing the plank off - I had absolutely no idea a repair of the fracture would end up so neat.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    We'd never know if you hadn't told us.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    That's what this forum is so good for , there are so many people who really know what they're talking about ..... and aren't emotionally invested in the horrible thing that just happened !

    She's a lovely boat !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Nice work, Suze!

    Regarding the sternsheets, could you not put a 'bridging thwart' across the stern, supported at each end by the side benches, and under which your feet in a sleeping-bag would still fit? Helming from sternsheets can be pretty comfortable in the right conditions, and it seems a pity to me to do away with them.

    You could even put a removable front face on the space and turn it into a semi-dry storage locker for when you're not camping out.

    Mike
    Visit us to see how we help people complete classic boats authentically.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    And people whinge about epoxy. I reckon it's bluddy brill covers up most of my dodgy carpentry and the rest I'll paint. What would you have done before the wonder goop.
    but I reckon you still need to pull that plank cos you'll be worried about it in future, ha ha gotcha. The next plank will double it over and reinforce the lap anyway. Well done. Btw I have one of those wounds on my boat too.
    just in case you're interested Suzie I got a new one of those bronze rudder fittings from England and they made it backwards so now it's take three!!

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Second row of planking done. Easy peasy!

    I'm continuing the theme of cheating with a bloody big power planer. I feel so dirty using it, but god it's fast.

    I also, after spending a small fortune on screws, chickened out and didn't use them, as I was afraid I'd go right through the stringers. Instead I just used some short lengths of timber between stringers to allow me to clamp the plank with equal pressure to both stringers.

    I did gains the way John recommends, using chisel and saw. Again, easy.



    Anyway I'm really happy with how it's going.


  34. #104
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Quote Originally Posted by Wooden Boat Fittings View Post
    Nice work, Suze!

    Regarding the sternsheets, could you not put a 'bridging thwart' across the stern, supported at each end by the side benches, and under which your feet in a sleeping-bag would still fit? Helming from sternsheets can be pretty comfortable in the right conditions, and it seems a pity to me to do away with them.

    You could even put a removable front face on the space and turn it into a semi-dry storage locker for when you're not camping out.

    Mike
    Hey what a great idea. I could make a custom fitted esky!

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Elena, a Welsford Navigator cruising sloop

    Hi Suzy J, I have been drawn to your posts originally because of your name Suzy J. That is the name of my little B & B Spindrift 11N I built (links below), whose namesake, my mom, the boat is named after. She wasn't a boat builder, but if she wanted to, she could have. Like you she was very talented. She built fine furniture, was an art teacher, skilled in upholstery and just all round talented. While most of my friends Dads were their mentor, mine was my mom.

    Unfortunately, when my kids were at the age she could have taught them so much, her health was deteriorating, so when she passed, I built my first boat to share some of the things she had taught me. I have shared this thread with my kids and told some stories about my mom. Thanks for sharing this in such detail. It's so hard these days to inspire kids when all their friends are hooked on tiny screens!

    I'd love to hear the path to how you became so talented.
    Take Care,
    Steve W

    Honeoye Falls, New York
    Building a B & B Core Sound 20 Mark III "Jazz Hands"
    Spindrift 11N Suzy J Build Pictures
    A little video of the Suzy J and my youngest son

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