perhaps it can be of some interest for you?...
perhaps it can be of some interest for you?...
Thanks for the great video,
I am going to be a bit naughty, mainly playing devils advocate, here goes...
I come from a background of international canoe racing (new very successful but had a ball). Built and developed a couple of small proas to my own design, now sail a Streaker (12ft wooden light weight single handed dinghy for those not familiar). Building a lightweight open canoe which will get a small rig eventually.
So what is the appeal? and there clearly is a lot, over open canoe sailing. They appear to be developing into more and more complex trimarans.
Can they be easily car topped anymore?
How long does it take to get them from the top of the car to sailing?
What sort of speeds are they getting?
To my mind is not a small traditionally rigged boat on a trailer an easier way to open water cruise.
Please don't be offended, that is not my intention, I love these boats, just want to clarify the direction of my next design, Either an open sailing canoe or a robust small trailer sailing dinghy.
P.S. clearly the healthy camaraderie goes without saying, I don't think the Dinghy Cruising Association is a 'buoyant' as you guys, or many dinghy sailing clubs for that matter.
I agree, look good to sail but those are not canoes, they are trimarans!
My personal view on that is that a 50:50 sailing canoe is an excellent compromise between paddling and sailing. It is a magic carpet, able to reach your daily target under nearly all wind & weather conditions, except those that will turn you upside down. Add exteme simpicity and portability to that, and you have a tempting package for the cruising sailor / paddler. It is my decision because I travel a lot and like to take the boat with me on the roof rack. I do find use for it in anywhere where the water is at least one foot deep, and it is used a lot because it is so easy to use.
On the other hand, sacrifice some of the paddling ability, throw some simplicity and portability overboard, and enjoy other options. A trimaran has an improved safety against capsize, and the ability to manage a bigger rig will mean somewhat faster sailing. Or choose a bigger footprint and take the sailing dinghy, to cope somewhat better with high waves or take more gear with you. All of that can make sense depending on what you want to do with your boat, and the wind and weather conditions in your area. All of these options include some complications, so will effectively reduce your time on the water.
Last edited by canoe_sailor; 04-30-2015 at 12:10 AM.
Jeremy and Tink, here's the thing, my first sailing canoe was a Solway Dory ketch lug rig Curlew. My dinghy at the time was one of the highly developed local racing Scows.
Ed took the Scow and I took the canoe. Nice breeze, bone in the teeth of the Scow as I sailed along side her. Pretty close on speed, but with each gust the canoe could respond, accelerate and be enjoyed, the Scow was at max speed already.
So there I was, in a sailing canoe that cost half as much, half the sail area and weighed half as much. Yet she was more fun, more enjoyable and much easier to move around.
What at came into my head was, Less is More. That really sums up sailing canoes.
However, the Curlew was an open boat, not really safe in the open Solent, so I swapped her for the fully decked Shearwater, with outriggers. The outriggers take about an extra 5 minutes to rig. Just two wing nuts on bolts through the gunnel for the ama, and same again for each outrigger fastening to the ama. Are the benefits worth the hastle? On open rough water yes. A few minutes give great security when gybing. No worries, sailing in the conditions seen in these videos.
Howard and Axel are good enough sailors to use Bufflehead safely in open waters, the outriggers give much added extra security to less mobile and less confident sailors. See how many are out at the meet, and in rough weather. It makes it a more accessible form of sailing, for just a few minutes rigging.
As for trimarans. I see trimarans as boats that always have the leeward float immersed and always need it to support the rig. The French even sail on it alone. These small highly held outriggers do little support most of the time. Even when immersed just about all the rig load is still being counteracted by the helmsman.
An an additional difference is after a capsize. A trimaran is in real trouble. These small outriggers are designed to immerse fully and go right under the boat when the helm is righting the boat. They then steady the boat while climbing back in from the water, another huge benefit. There is a video showing all this, will try and find it.
I guess this form of craft with small volume highly carried outriggers needs a new name.
Here's another video from the recent Scottish meet.
I have no doubt that these canoes are both fun to sail and self sufficient.
I am interested in how much moving stuff about is involved. Five minutes to attach the outrigger is clearly no big deal. If the all the kit is roof racked this seams like a lot tieing down and I imagine the canoe can't be easily roof racked single handed. With the canoe on the roof all kit you need would have to be in the car. It all seams like a lot of moving stuff about that has to be done four times. Packing at home, unlaod at the lake, river etc and then reload ant finally unpack at home.
Compare with a traditional dinghy on a trailer, every thing needed kept on board, hitch up and go.
So I would be interested in the logistics of moving these craft about.
In my wife's mind sailing starts the moment I start packing and stops when it is all away again. For me it is only the time on the water. I am keen to maximise the later...... but it must be good quality sailing
Very good points Tink.
Canoe on the roofrack upsidedown. Rolled sail and mast tied alongside on roofrack.
Everything else in the boot.
Loading any 16' decked canoe is a hassle and if it's with the wife it's stressful, feels like you are going to drop it. So I bought a second hand Karitek roof loader. Fantastic bit of kit, essential if you want stress free decked dinghy loading with a dodgy back.
To make shifting all the loose bits with an outrigger set up I made a cockpit bag that held everything.
I cheated in that my Shearwater was stored at the dinghy park at Keyhaven. Still it did take longer to put everything away than say a Scow, which was pull cover over and walk away. I now no longer have that space so I would not go through all the load/unload every time I wanted to sail. Trouble is I also hate towing and launching a dinghy everytime. Needs a lot of making sure boat is tied down, spars are secure and won't damage the boat etc etc. Where to put the trailer when unloaded. Will there be any parking spaces.
With my reduced sailing I am choosing to go the purer simpler route and build an Artemis. Light enough to carry, load and move around with a bicycle canoe trailer. I plan to sail her around Keyhaven salt flats. Will I sail in the Solent - probably not - although very experienced I still feel I want outriggers on the open sea. Best for me to stay on flatter water now anyway.
The hassle of outriggers is all about their worth on the sail you are doing that day. Open sea, expedition, Solent crossing, they have to be worth it. Others, mainly Bufflehead sailors, do the same without them. As did the UK canoe sailors up to SD creating them for a canoe sailor's wife who capsized and lost her confidence. Her husband thought them up and SD made them in 2005.
There is a terrific thread running just now on the OCSG Facebook page. Deep discussions about outriggers and are they taking people into more extreme conditions than they should? https://www.facebook.com/groups/1524...2948596298789/
Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 04-30-2015 at 01:15 PM.
sounds like some good ideas, certainly got me thinking. The trailer at the launch site was not a consideration I had made. Love the cockpit bag. Even new the Karitec is cheaper and easier to stow than a trailer, trolley. You have to strap down both on a rack and a trailer.
Here is a thought, if you fitted a self bailer in the right place you could roof rack the canoe the correct way up, no risk of filling with rain. Lighter bits of kit could then be kept in the canoe.
Will keep thinging......
Set up time is our bane, for sure, and I love that observation, that your wife thinks sailing starts when you start packing. Adding up the times is depressing: for me, say, 15 minutes to gather up the stuff I cannot leave on the boat when I park in my driveway, make a sandwich, then get out the masts and sails (cannot leave masts on boats -- addicts/thugs around here love to steal metal and sell at shady recycling places :-( ). Remove rain-covers, hook up trailer, attach lights, tighten straps: if under 10 minutes, not much under. Drive to ramp: 30 minutes for lake, one hour for shore. Set up and launch the proa: 30 minutes for cat-ketch, with the the new safety ama that must be rigged out. Reverse for ride home. I try not to think about it much. My next boat is supposed to be a bit easier with maybe a stayless rig, but since I am adding a folding ama (like a SeaClipper) any time saved with a drop-in rig will be probably lost folding out and securing the outrigger. Well, the world will still turn, and it will still be a good day. -- Wade
Axel has mentioned that Artemis is very easy to carry upright on roof rack bars.
Firstly she has in fact a flat bottom rear section. This is part of creating maximum sailing stability on her 31" beam designed for using a double kayak paddle. Also keeping her light in weight so she can be carried and loaded by a single person.
In this picture if you look closely you can see a under your seat is a single panel, then just forward this connects to two panels which start flat and then form the forward V hull shape.
So the rear section will be very stable and will strap down well. For the forward V section perhaps a wedge shape might hold her well on the roof bar. May not be needed, will see.
Also, it only take an hour to make a cockpit cover which fixes around the cockpit rim, so gear can be stowed there when travelling and will be dry.
The CLC Mill Creek 16.5 might also be a contender. She can be paddled (single or double), rowed and sailed. As for a sail, I'd probably go for a setup similar to the Arctic Skua shown earlier, including the centreboard built into the side deck.
Model: Length: Hull Weight: Beam: Max Payload: Cockpit Size: Paddler Weight: Sail Area: Mill Creek 16.5 16' 6" 62 lbs. 33 in. 450 lbs. 88" x 21" 230 - 400 lbs. 39 sq ft.
Last edited by Songololo; 05-25-2015 at 03:37 PM.
"Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors". African Proverb
The CLX Mill Creek 16.5 being rowed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMAiPr52k6g
What are the dimensions and paddling weight for the Artemis?
"Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors". African Proverb
From Artemis site. http://www.bootsbaugarage.ch/kit.htm
The prototype measures 481 x 77 cm (15.8' x 30.5"). On the existing set of planks, the boat could also be built 4 cm wider or narrower.
I love ultralight boats! At the moment, the cartop weight is 23,5 kg. Not sure whether I will meet or exceed the 25 kg.
Artemis creaming along at 57 seconds. Also with jib at 22 seconds, racing at 3.20.
nice to see a new Artemis being built on the east coast of the USA
Is Nautilus making any progress? (Nothing against Artemis, just curious). --Wade
It is nice to see another Artemis, thanks for posting that. Those are good pictures of it.
Whats the deal with the new Artemis?
Is that a sealed cockpit?
How will you access the rest of the boat?
ARTEMIS is a 50-50 sailing canoe that is quite easy to build. We don't use permanent bulkheads. ARTEMIS was designed to have inflatable bow and stern flotation. In addition, we have two pool noodles tucked away on starbord and two on port, under the side decks. The whole interior is accessible from the cockpit. I have designed her in that way after I met a kajaker at Spiekeroog island, having cut his sleeping bag in half to get it stowed through the small hatch of his kayak. Building hatches is work (which I hate) and adding weight (which I hate even more).
Capsize trials have been done. She is so wide that righting her and climbing back into the boat is quite easy. For very challenging conditions, I might consider a sea sock.
Last edited by canoe_sailor; 03-18-2017 at 01:41 AM.
alex sent pics of another new Artemis today. She is rigged with the carbon spars and Bufflehead sail. very nice indeed
This picture doesn't look like the interior is accessible. There appears to be interior cockpit sealed sides, and almost looks like it has a double floor, but that might be illusion.
Any news on Nautilus ?
'' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
That I can finally see. Thanks.
website for Artemis to clarify things.
and video of her sailing
an update on Artemis explaining her features , including her mylar rig from Michael Storer.
Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 03-25-2017 at 03:35 AM.
Everyone is asking for a magic design here. it is not possible with the traditional methods. Foils WILL be required. Large ones at that. Foils on big boats scare me a bit so I do not recommend them but on a canoe they could be highly beneficial. I understand that you guys are traditionalist so a simple foil made out of composite wood should satisfy the majority of you. no carbon Kevlar here. Keep in mind that any seaweed or kelp will create a bad day for you. Simple stability assisted foils will solve your conundrum. add stuff all resistance if undeployed and can be made at home. . problem is no one can afford it to be designed so keep sticking windage on sea kayaks and best of luck!
True. If you want absolute performance, use foils. Canoes are a good testbed, because they can be built very light. Anything that has weight won't fly.
The nice gentleman with the yellow jacket above was an avid foiling Moth sailor. He built an ARTEMIS to go cruising, and to sail & paddle to places where you can't go with a foiling Moth. So, at the moment, he is building cruising-related stuff for his ARTEMIS and dreaming about bigger adventures. Might be extremely rewarding for him to camp-cruise the shoreline of his country and cover real distances with his small but very capable boat.
I am sure he has not forgotten the thrills of foil sailing. Yes, I would be happy to team up with him, again, and design and build a foiling canoe. We might even use the same hull...
Might be a small niche. You have to master two skills: composite boatbuilding, and then develop the skills, awareness and agiltily to handle foils.
Yes, I am really curious what the forum thinks about DIY foiling canoes.
Last edited by canoe_sailor; 03-26-2017 at 01:26 AM.
My wooden dinghy is for fleet racing on a shallow man made (but beautiful) lake, foiling would not work and I am after something different from my sailing. Sailed an IC for a while thrill sailing ok but now my preference is slower boat on boat racing.
My 12 x 30 sailing canoe is for rivers, shallow and narrow- no good for foiling.
if I lived somewhere where I could foil I wouldn't start with a canoe. Because of stability I think you would end up turning the canoe into a trimaran foils in the amas and rudder. AYRS did this ages ago but it is the moth and cats that broke through into widespread acceptance. Liking the Waszp and UFO, we keep being promised the peoples foiler, maybe on of these will be it
In some ways, having a form of additional stability that only works when all is going well can be worse than having no such additional stability.
Edmond Bruce was the chap. If you search for him and foils you find a wealth of AYRS old publications. It is quite amazing how much work was being done.
There was a variant of the Bruce foil that had a very thick section, getting thicker at the top so it becomes a float. The idea being it had enough buoyancy at low speed and then provided lift as the speed increased. There was a class of boat produced with this system, saw one sailing once but I was in 1906 gaffer LWL 17 ft so didn't see it for long.
"Capsize trials (Artemis) have been done. She is so wide that righting her and climbing back into the boat is quite easy. For very challenging conditions, I might consider a sea sock".
I have been mulling over whether a sailing canoe will meet my needs for a while now. The issue for me is the need for maximum seaworthy-ness, as I live in a very boisterous area. I had sort of assumed (wrongly) that Artemis would not be self rescuable at sea and would love to see some footage of how this is done, so I can gauge if it would work where I live.
In the same vein, any thoughts as to how the design could be made more seaworthy (what is a sea sock?), would be appreciated and Axel, is there any chance that a set of small raised outriggers (like the ones on the Solway Dory boats), could be developed? I'm all ears..........
Adrian, the thing is with sailing canoes is beam makes a big difference.
Artemis at 30" is a true 50"50 sailing canoe. really good paddling canoe and sailing canoe. that make her much less stable than a 36" wide Solway Dory.
the Wanderlust at 36" and very stable shape plus outriggers is much more stable. These small differences in beam make big differences in stability.
Here is a site with more pictures of Meade Gougeon's most recent sailing outrigger canoe, Elderly Care. A number of good detail shots. I appreciate the interior picture, it's good to see the hull shape. This one below, dual centerboards maybe? I get the concept if that is what it is, I have toyed with the idea but offset ones, to give you a range of rig options and reef situations. And these appear to be carbon fiber, so the extra weight not so much of an issue. Every time I see pictures of his canoes it brings up a handful of questions.