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Thread: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives?

  1. #1
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    Default Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives?

    Okay, so now that they are just now pulling the defibrillator off my chest from me having just heard that epoxy resin goes for at least $100 a gallon, it leaves me in aftershock. I will not mention any names of any specific ship's chandlery, however, I just got off the phone with me mates over there at "Best Sardine."

    After you stick and glue her and puddy in the epoxy paste along your seams, what are your natural alternatives, or, as you are putting fiberglass sheets and fiberglass tape, that is the process, so they sort of have you by the monkey fists, all do respects, of course.

    You clever old salts, what else could lay over that fiberglass sheet? $99 is just one gallon, and that would just about do the plywood duck that I made for my bathtub.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    20 litres of international epoxy is 500 retail. 20/3.8= 5.2 so your prices are probably ballpark for a retail purchase walk in if the supplier has a generous mark up. Shopping around or getting trade rates should drop that figure considerably.

    There is a lot of skill in using epoxy, the more accurate your woodwork and understanding of the material plus the use of good design can reduce your epoxy bill by half. That said boatbuilding is expensive, either in money or investment in skill. Traditional construction is not inexpensive if its done correctly, but in all methods of boatbuilding the most expensive part is your time.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Better double the one hundred if you need the hardener, fillers, a handy pump, some containers, sticks, gloves.....and shipment.

    nothing cheap with boats.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Epoxy was invented because there were no alternatives that meet its design brief.
    Gerard>
    Everett, WA

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Oh, if you want to build your own boat to save money, you're delusional. That won't happen.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    At those prices you're probably looking at one of the highly marketed brands. Lots of cheaper, low profile brands around. I used inexpensive epoxy in four of the eight S&G boats I've built and can't tell any difference from the expensive stuff. No issues, no failures. That said, I wouldn't buy any epoxy from Ebay.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim907 View Post

    You clever old salts, what else could lay over that fiberglass sheet? $99 is just one gallon, and that would just about do the plywood duck that I made for my bathtub.
    Once you've committed to a fibreglass sheet, you have already gone down the synthetic pathway. You could boil a horse and impregnate canvas, but once again you're unlikely to manage it for a hundred dollars a gallon. The other alternatives are carvel, traditional lapstrake, or paint over a natural glue join with a busload of faith.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    I've been at my build for an awful long time now, so I've noted the jump in epoxy prices going from about 99 dollars for the .94 gallon resin and near quart of hardener going up to today's near 140 dollars for the same item at the same nationwide boating chain/store. Prices have jumped everywhere, all due, I believe to the sharp rise of oil, thanks to the usual suspects.

    Long term, it's going to squeeze a lot of hobbyists out or force them to think of smaller boat designs.

    Best Regards,
    Mike

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Yeah epoxy ain't cheap, but neither are boats.

    I once overheard a guy at a racetrack complain about the cost of racing his 911. Another driver responded " so what part of Porsche racing did you think was gonna be cheap, the Porsche part, or the racing part?"

    Only horses, airplanes and mistresses cost more (I've owned the first 2, no desire for the 3rd)
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    If by "Best Sardine" you mean "West Marine" you can get much better pricing if you look around a bit. Right off the bat I can find the .86 gal of 105 for about $82. But you still have to add the hardener and the pumps and the shipping (to AK!) so, yes what everyone else is telling you, it is not an inexpensive hobby, or obsession as the case may be.
    Steve Martinsen

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim907 View Post
    Okay, so now that they are just now pulling the defibrillator off my chest from me having just heard that epoxy resin goes for at least $100 a gallon, it leaves me in aftershock. I will not mention any names of any specific ship's chandlery, however, I just got off the phone with me mates over there at "Best Sardine."

    After you stick and glue her and puddy in the epoxy paste along your seams, what are your natural alternatives, or, as you are putting fiberglass sheets and fiberglass tape, that is the process, so they sort of have you by the monkey fists, all do respects, of course.

    You clever old salts, what else could lay over that fiberglass sheet? $99 is just one gallon, and that would just about do the plywood duck that I made for my bathtub.
    Thank you fellows with more experience for adding your views and experience.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Occasionally I'll buy a gallon from my local building supply store. during the 5 years I've been building my boat, I've seen the price go from around $80/gal to near $120/gal. The increase has made it more than practical to run the 25 miles to the chandlery. Plus, since I buy so many supplies from them, they give a very good, preferred customer discount.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    While I know that the price seems high, and we may all bi justified in being indignant about it, really, epoxy is not anywhere near the largest expense on a wooden boat. At somewhere between $5/BF and $35/BF, lumber is going to dwarf any build that isn't made with the cheapest of ply slathered with epoxy...

    You can expect most good quality builds too run at least $500 in wood, some as much as $5K (I am talking boats under about 18 feet..above that then the lumber costs rise significantly).

    So search around and find an unknown epoxy for $75/gal, and use that, then cry in your beer when it fails and all the lumber and all the work are down the drain (so to speak)..

    Honestly, and I mean this with all respect, if a $50 epoxy premium is going to put a huge dent in your boat build, I suspect you might want to consider a different hobby..
    Now is a good time!


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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    It is still a small percentage of the cost of most builds. Wait till you start buying stainless or bronze boat bling - if you're moaning now, you'll be catatonic with shock by the time you finish perusing a chandlers catalogue.

    Pete
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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    David G
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    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Need to groom a better class of friends. Find someone who has a Port Supply account and bring beer... Prices are amazingly lower! One of my childhood friends has a boat business so I use his account for one buy a year. Saves me a ton of money, but pisses me off about the rape and pillage of West Marine retail prices. They came in as the Walmart of boat chandleries and "we" all ran there for great prices slowly strangling all the mom and pop shops. Now that they are all gone, WM turned their pricing dial to "Blatant Rape"!!!

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    I'm definitely in the camp that says you just need to suck it up, buttercup. $99 bucks a gallon ain't squat. Wait until you find out the price of bottom paint or good varnish or quality sailcloth. And you know what? High-quality materials are worth every penny. Don't be a cheapskate and settle for cut-rate, lowest-common-denominator crap. If you're really strapped, better to downsize and build a smaller boat properly than to build a shoddy big one.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim907 View Post
    After you stick and glue her and puddy in the epoxy paste along your seams, what are your natural alternatives,
    You can use whatever you like in place of fibrerglass tape/cloth but if it does not have the tensile strength of fiberglass you may may find your creation coming apart while your afloat.
    Not long ago one bloke said he used some kind of drywall tape as an alternative. He never testified about how that worked out so we don't know whether he had to swim for it or not.
    S&G construction is not cheap but it is a well thought out way to build boats. It is particularly good at keeping weight down. For those of us who transport our boats on our shoulders or on our car roofs it is a godsend.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Cogeniac View Post
    While I know that the price seems high, and we may all bi justified in being indignant about it, really, epoxy is not anywhere near the largest expense on a wooden boat. At somewhere between $5/BF and $35/BF, lumber is going to dwarf any build that isn't made with the cheapest of ply slathered with epoxy...

    You can expect most good quality builds too run at least $500 in wood, some as much as $5K (I am talking boats under about 18 feet..above that then the lumber costs rise significantly).

    So search around and find an unknown epoxy for $75/gal, and use that, then cry in your beer when it fails and all the lumber and all the work are down the drain (so to speak)..

    Honestly, and I mean this with all respect, if a $50 epoxy premium is going to put a huge dent in your boat build, I suspect you might want to consider a different hobby..
    $500-$5K for wood, what are you talking about building, a skiff? Last fall I spent over $5k for materials to build a new cabin house. Almost $1K of that was for window glass.

    I buy epoxy in 5 gallon lots. It is significantly cheaper that way. Same goes for fiberglass cloth. If you buy a full roll you can save more than 50% off the per yard cost.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    One of the reasons I did not continue on a S&G design(Devlin) was a distaste of the epoxy gloop. The one I did build was a glued lap, much less gloop as it is only as a glue for close-ish joins as apposed to fillets. Hate to mention it, but, I scored a 50 gallon drum of epoxy + assorted hardeners from a failed project. That, with about $500 of ply and other woods, will build me a 16ft cabin mini cruiser. Since it is is a Bolger derivative, no bling on the fittings, and I expect to spend around another $500 on sailcloth and other bits. Need another 200 odd lbs of lead to add to the stuff I have.
    Apart from that, looks practical. Masts will be birdsmouth with local ' red pine'. Same as I used for the last three spars.
    Standing joke with a friend who built a gaff cutter of the same LOD.. What he spent on his trailer, bought nearly all the materials for my Oughtred build... including the trailer bits.
    Just looked at some coating resin I bought a year ago. Cost about 60 euro for 4 kg. We normally expect to pay more than US prices, so perhaps you should look harder?

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    There is a rumour ................





    that people used to build boats before epoxy existed

  22. #22

    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Apparently some of the historical natural substitutes are still available.... river bank mud, pine sap, natural tar deposits, guano.....

    One thing to keep in mind if you are a novice, is that a gallon of epoxy and associated hardener will go a fair distance if you keep the waste down.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by dobrosailor View Post
    Need to groom a better class of friends. Find someone who has a Port Supply account and bring beer... Prices are amazingly lower! One of my childhood friends has a boat business so I use his account for one buy a year. Saves me a ton of money, but pisses me off about the rape and pillage of West Marine retail prices. They came in as the Walmart of boat chandleries and "we" all ran there for great prices slowly strangling all the mom and pop shops. Now that they are all gone, WM turned their pricing dial to "Blatant Rape"!!!
    I understand that there are sources for epoxy which are significantly cheaper than West Marine, and I use some of those sources. However, here in Colorado we have ONE boating supply store (other than a sideline for some boat dealers), and it is West Marine. So I am thankful for West Marine and use it whenever they are close to being competitive price-wise. Even if I have to drive fifty miles to the store, sometimes that is better than looking a a picture on the internet. I have a part ordered right now from a Florida source because it cannot be found in Colorado.

    The discussion of what it takes $-wise to build a boat is spot-on. My first boat had no epoxy; close-fitting resorcinol joints and marine paint. There are alternatives, but you always give up something. When I read how much epoxy some designs require, I cringe at the cost. I think I used 7 gallons of epoxy for my latest build, 6' by 18.5' powerboat. But that is peanuts compared to some other items. How about $7000 for an outboard? $5000 for canvas work and upholstery? Wood, hardware, fuel-instrument-lighting-engine controls, etc. But it provides 2-3 years of enjoyment in the building, which is cheaper than a golf club membership, and eventually we'll even get it out on a lake.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    The Last simple 19 ft ply and glass outboard skiff i built was 9 thousand dollars in materials only.

    quality ply , epoxy, glass , fairing compound, marine paint and consumables are expensive.

    Its possible to choose a design that eliminates most of the epoxy, glass, consumables cost

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    I built a stitch-and-glue daysailer. It turned out nicely. U.S. Composites epoxy worked well and was nicely priced. I think this will be the first and last SNG design I ever build though. Epoxy is unpleasant to use even when you learn work neatly after a while. My next build will likely be a glued lap boat -- less epoxy. The price of hardware and fasteners was the part of the project that stung me the most though.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Timo

    What are you building and what is its purpose? All the advice here is good, and the discussion it provoked is worth having. But, lets say all you want is a simple outboard skiff: you could build it with plywood and some dimensional lumber and no epoxy.

    The use to which you intend to use the boat and your expectations for its lifespan can help drive a better materials selection decision.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd D View Post
    $500-$5K for wood, what are you talking about building, a skiff? Last fall I spent over $5k for materials to build a new cabin house. Almost $1K of that was for window glass.

    I buy epoxy in 5 gallon lots. It is significantly cheaper that way. Same goes for fiberglass cloth. If you buy a full roll you can save more than 50% off the per yard cost.
    1/4 to 3/8 Hydrotek runs about $100/sheet. If you figure on at least 5-6 sheets, that will put you well over $500, before you add any hardwood bits.. Make it out of solid lumber and use good quality wood, and the sky is the limit. Clear AYC runs about $6-$10/BF. A smallish boat, say an Oughtred Acorn will probably use 60-80 BF of planking (depending on waste) . Assuming you do the resawing and planing yourself, the raw stock will run at least $800. Add in a mahogany transom, oak gunwales, etc, and you are over $1K in a heartbeat..probably more like $2.5K including trim bits, frames, and waste. I am sure others here can provide hard numbers...

    And then there is hardware, fasteners, etc.. At $30/100 smallish bronze fasteners can add up fast!

    Sure, if you go to Lowes and get "marine" ply for $25/ sheet, you might build a flat sided skiff for a few hundred bucks, but it will be unlikely to last, and you may find yourself regretting buying marine wood that isn't...

    S
    Now is a good time!


    Steward of MAKOTO [WB Magazine #232], and Honored Member of the LPBC

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim907 View Post
    Okay, so now that they are just now pulling the defibrillator off my chest from me having just heard that epoxy resin goes for at least $100 a gallon, it leaves me in aftershock. I will not mention any names of any specific ship's chandlery, however, I just got off the phone with me mates over there at "Best Sardine."

    After you stick and glue her and puddy in the epoxy paste along your seams, what are your natural alternatives, or, as you are putting fiberglass sheets and fiberglass tape, that is the process, so they sort of have you by the monkey fists, all do respects, of course.

    You clever old salts, what else could lay over that fiberglass sheet? $99 is just one gallon, and that would just about do the plywood duck that I made for my bathtub.
    Check these out. I've had good luck with these materials from Paul Oman and they are 1.5 gallons for $97.00

    http://www.epoxyusa.com/category_s/3.htm

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Patience and Craigslist can get you decent lumber at $3/ or less per board foot. Western Red Cedar in Oregon at the price or better is common. Many of the quotes people have been throwing around are for those in a rush with less concern than you have for money spent.

    I bought 300 bf of very tight grained Douglas Fir (all old growth) 2"x6"s at 10' lengths for $0.90 bd-ft. A few nail holes but otherwise topnotch stuff dirt cheap. Just gotta be patient.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    The alternative is to not use laminates. Use mechanical fasteners and bedding compound.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    I'm using epoxy because I read about GLUE here in WBF. It's the best: sticks very hard, waterproof, easy to use. Caution to be considered like: wearing nitril gloves and adequate cloth to protect skin, wearing cartrige respirator when sanding (power or hand), ventilated area. Some special care when thickening epoxy with CABOSIL or fumed silica (great for thickning epoxy but bad for lungs - use cartrige respirator. Don't be cheap with respirator, it's a life saver.
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    Check these out. I've had good luck with these materials from Paul Oman and they are 1.5 gallons for $97.00

    http://www.epoxyusa.com/category_s/3.htm
    I am also very happy with Paul's epoxy, though I think the website is horrid and hard to read/navigate. Paul was extremely responsive and helpful though.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by capefox View Post
    I built a stitch-and-glue daysailer. It turned out nicely. U.S. Composites epoxy worked well and was nicely priced. I think this will be the first and last SNG design I ever build though. Epoxy is unpleasant to use even when you learn work neatly after a while. My next build will likely be a glued lap boat -- less epoxy. The price of hardware and fasteners was the part of the project that stung me the most though.
    My last shipment of US Composite epoxy was $54 per gallon to my door within 3 days for a 7.5 gallon kit. I find no difference between this product and WEST,MAS,System Three, etc.
    Just more money

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Boats are still built without epoxy. Good, cost effective, beautiful, hardworking boats. Not that you would know by reading the (ply)wooden boat forum. Or looking at the "launchings" section of the magazine.

    Some days I think its good because it leaves the local boatbuilding woods for those of us who need them.

    Most days I just think its sad.

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    Default Re: Epoxy Resin, $99 a Gallon Plus Resin? Que? What are some "Natural" Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Yevsky View Post
    At those prices you're probably looking at one of the highly marketed brands. Lots of cheaper, low profile brands around. I used inexpensive epoxy in four of the eight S&G boats I've built and can't tell any difference from the expensive stuff. No issues, no failures. That said, I wouldn't buy any epoxy from Ebay.
    While I agree in principle, I have had great success with http://www.polymercompositesinc.com/index.htm. $90 will get you 2 gallons of marine grade epoxy as this company sells to the public at wholesale prices. (+ $25 for shipping) They only sell through ebay, which is a bit of a hassle. At first I was skeptical, but am a huge fan of their low viscosity product for wetting out fiberglass and of their thixotropic blend for making fillets. The ratio is 1-1, so you can measure and mix by weight or by volume, with no pumps and very little waste.

    I'm not a chemist, and I haven't done any product comparison tests, but it has worked well for me. YMMV.

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