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Thread: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

  1. #596
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    This report from the New York Times has been featured as breaking news over the last 12 hours.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/wo...ref=world&_r=0

    This is the biggest piece of drivel that I've sen for a while.

    The article contradicts itself in a few places.
    For example:
    Instead of manually operating the plane’s controls, whoever altered Flight 370’s path typed seven or eight keystrokes into a computer on a knee-high pedestal between the captain and the first officer, according to officials. The Flight Management System, as the computer is known, directs the plane from point to point specified in the flight plan submitted before a flight. It is not clear whether the plane’s path was reprogrammed before or after it took off.
    Flight 370’s Flight Management System reported its status to the Acars, which in turn transmitted information back to a maintenance base, according to an American official. This shows that the reprogramming happened before the Acars stopped working.
    Allan of the Grove
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  2. #597
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Full Tilt View Post

    The aircraft climbed to 43,000 feet which is only two thousand feet above the average cruising altitude for the 777. It then descended to 23,000 feet and changed course.



    Mike
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  3. #598
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Best theory yet: http://www.businessinsider.com/malay...ne-fire-2014-3

    This comes from a very experienced pilot who would rather deal with facts and probabilities than fantasy.
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  4. #599
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by S/V Laura Ellen View Post
    I could speculate that the loss of the plane was caused by it flying into a rift in the time-space continuum caused by the LHC, but I won't because that would not add any value to the discussion.
    I give this the same credibility as some of the other scenarios being floated.
    And I probably shouldn't have posted my tounge-in-cheek scenario. The link in post 605 is pretty level headed.
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  5. #600
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Huge flaw in that experienced pilots theory. How does smoke from a tire fire get inside a pressurized vessel. The pressure is higher inside than out. Not to mention the fact that I have never heard of a nose wheel fire in flight, and maybe not even on the ground, at least not without some other major issue. I've seenlenty of tires separate and leave the rim but still no fire. Wheel fires are usually from brakes overheating. No nose wheel brakes installed. And especially not at 35,000 ft, that long after takeoff. The possibility of a tire fire in the nose wheel well is remote enough that there is not even overheat of fire sensors located there.

    Electrical fire in the electrical compartment, maybe, but a fire outside the pressurized area isn't going to let any smoke in.
    Last edited by Tom Wilkinson; 03-18-2014 at 11:42 AM.
    Tom

  6. #601
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Good points Tom.
    Ratus ratus bilgeous snipeous!

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  7. #602
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    I also highly doubt the crew would shut down all the electrical busses to the point of losing all comm. Left VHF comes of your hot battery bus. No was are they gonna shut that off. It's essential for flight. They may do some bus isolation to narrow the problem, but shutting down all the electrical busses is not going to happen. There is a lot of redundancy built in here.
    Tom

  8. #603
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    CNN and CTVNews are reporting that Thai radar has detected the plane after it changed course.
    If this is factual, why are the Thais just releasing this info now?

    http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/investig...land-1.1734438
    Allan of the Grove
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  9. #604
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    I read a W.E.B. Griffin book recently that the plot was eerily similar.

    Book I in THE PRESIDENTIAL AGENT series
    by W.E.B. Griffin
    No one in 2005 wants to believe that an aged Boeing 727 missing in Africa is a threat to the United States, mostly because no one—not the FBI, not the CIA, not any intelligence agency—can find the plane or confirm the rumor that terrorists hijacked it with plans to crash it into an American landmark.

    The President, angry and anxious, wants answers, and personally assigns Charley Castillo, a U.S. Army Delta Force major on loan to Department of Homeland Security Secretary Matt Hall, to get them.

    Undercover and alone in Europe and Africa, Castillo goes in deep. He finds credible evidence that Somalia terrorists have readied the 727 for an attack—a threat that scrambles Delta Force’s elite Gray Fox team on high-risk insertions in Africa and Central America to find and possibly—if not probably—destroy the elusive aircraft. Worse, Castillo’s covert work reveals that the intel community is more concerned with protecting itself at any cost—while his sources pinpoint the 727 getting closer and closer to the U.S. Nothing Castillo learned at West Point prepared him for this..
    Tom

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  10. #605
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by MiddleAgesMan View Post
    Best theory yet: http://www.businessinsider.com/malay...ne-fire-2014-3

    This comes from a very experienced pilot who would rather deal with facts and probabilities than fantasy.

    Sorry guys, this doesn't hold water.

    Notice once again the misinterpretation of the final satellite fix that put the A/C on Line of Position (LOP). We're talking about the two red arcs on the previously posted chart.

    Anyone who continues to consider those arcs as representations of the course MH 370 took is demonstrating their ignorance.

    CNN was saying the same thing last time I looked.

    Read what S/V Laura Ellen wrote in post #525. He is 100% correct.

    This chart doesn't mean that the aircraft flew across China undetected as so many people (including the ones in MAM's link) have been saying.

    It's critical that everyone understand this.

  11. #606
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Full Tilt View Post
    Sorry guys, this doesn't hold water.

    Notice once again the misinterpretation of the final satellite fix that put the A/C on Line of Position (LOP). We're talking about the two red arcs on the previously posted chart.

    Anyone who continues to consider those arcs as representations of the course MH 370 took is demonstrating their ignorance.

    CNN was saying the same thing last time I looked.

    Read what S/V Laura Ellen wrote in post #525. He is 100% correct.

    This chart doesn't mean that the aircraft flew across China undetected as so many people (including the ones in MAM's link) have been saying.

    It's critical that everyone understand this.
    Why is it critical. It doesn't matter one iota if people understand it or not. CNN has you beleiving all kinds of things that aren't true but it's not going to change the investigation any. How about we quit all the ridiculous speculation altogether and let the people who actually investigate these things do their job. It's critical that they understand it, but the WBF? Not so much.
    Tom

  12. #607
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    No one is forcing you to participate.

  13. #608
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    I'm not the one telling people it's critical that they understand it. Pretty sure I can participate in whatever I feel like. You spreading ridiculous theories sure isn't helping anyone, especially when you fill half your posts with things that are factually wrong.
    Tom

  14. #609
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    It's all speculation until somebody finds aircraft or aircrew.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  15. #610
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    CNN has you beleiving all kinds of things that aren't true but it's not going to change the investigation any.
    Tom, what news source have you found to be providing the best coverage of this story, in your opinion?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  16. #611
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    I'm not the one telling people it's critical that they understand it. Pretty sure I can participate in whatever I feel like. You spreading ridiculous theories sure isn't helping anyone, especially when you fill half your posts with things that are factually wrong.
    It's only critical to developing an understanding of the situation.

    If MOM understood the satellite chart he wouldn't have written "Best theory yet".

    I will engage in this thought exercise until we open Schrodingers box and see if the cat lives.

    If you find it so disturbing I suggest you just walk away.

  17. #612
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Full Tilt View Post
    Sorry guys, this doesn't hold water.

    Notice once again the misinterpretation of the final satellite fix that put the A/C on Line of Position (LOP). We're talking about the two red arcs on the previously posted chart.

    Anyone who continues to consider those arcs as representations of the course MH 370 took is demonstrating their ignorance.

    CNN was saying the same thing last time I looked.

    Read what S/V Laura Ellen wrote in post #525. He is 100% correct.

    This chart doesn't mean that the aircraft flew across China undetected as so many people (including the ones in MAM's link) have been saying.

    It's critical that everyone understand this.
    I think you didn't read that link carefully enough. The claim about the two arcs was one of the hypotheses that's been floated which that piece is discounting in favor of the sequence of events that was proposed by this Goodfellow guy and which is summarized in the second half of the piece.
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  18. #613
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    I haven't seen any that I really think are doing a good job, but I don't spend a lot of time watching tv. I have a boat to build, and about a million other things going on. The articles and news that I have read are full of misinformation. Like the ACARS not being able to be shut off or not being able to switch off the transponders. I can't find reliable info about where the altitude reports actually came from. If they were from ACARS they should have had lots more data with them.

    So much of the info is contradictory that its difficult to make any sense of it.
    Tom

  19. #614
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Full Tilt View Post
    It's only critical to developing an understanding of the situation.

    If MOM understood the satellite chart he wouldn't have written "Best theory yet".

    I will engage in this thought exercise until we open Schrodingers box and see if the cat lives.

    If you find it so disturbing I suggest you just walk away.
    As x-flow said above, the best theory yet didn't mention the arcs. You misread it. But that theory had plenty of holes as well.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    I have not followed closely, and I am not about to wade through a 13 page flight of fancy to find if it has been mentioned but James Fallows has written, he is an avid pilot, a regular commuter between CA and China and a very good writer over at the Atlantic. I have not read it, probably won't, google if you are so inclined, but I think that he has proposed some realistic scenario.
    Steve Martinsen

  21. #616
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by xflow7 View Post
    I think you didn't read that link carefully enough. The claim about the two arcs was one of the hypotheses that's been floated which that piece is discounting in favor of the sequence of events that was proposed by this Goodfellow guy and which is summarized in the second half of the piece.
    I read it again and see your point and what you're missing.

    The arcs are not a theory that was floated and now discounted as you say, but an extremely valid piece of information when interpreted properly.

    The writer is throwing the baby out with the bathwater by making no mention of what those arcs really mean.

    What that chart is saying is that the plane was on a LOP which after 7 hours flying was either in the southern ocean or on the ground near Kazakhstan.

    We've searched that southern ocean location but found nothing.

    What we haven't been able to do is get a low level view of the area at the other end of the LOP.

  22. #617
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Full Tilt View Post
    I read it again and see your point and what you're missing.

    The arcs are not a theory that was floated and now discounted as you say, but an extremely valid piece of information when interpreted properly.

    The writer is throwing the baby out with the bathwater by making no mention of what those arcs really mean.

    What that chart is saying is that the plane was on a LOP which after 7 hours flying was either in the southern ocean or on the ground near Kazakhstan.

    We've searched that southern ocean location but found nothing.

    What we haven't been able to do is get a low level view of the area at the other end of the LOP.
    How are you coming up with this statement?
    What that chart is saying is that the plane was on a LOP which after 7 hours flying was either in the southern ocean or on the ground near Kazakhstan.
    Allan of the Grove
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  23. #618
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    I understand exactly what that chart represents. I posted it and pointed out the prevalent misinterpretation in post #390. And, as lines of position, they don't mean that the plane can only have been in the Southern Ocean or in Kazakhstan after 7 hours of flying. They mean that at the time of the ping, it could have been anywhere on either of those two lines. That's what an LOP is.

    My reply above was only to point out that the theory posited in that piece did not depend on a mis-interpretation of that chart. But neither is it incompatible with the LOP chart.
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  24. #619
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Have they checked for it in North Korea?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  25. #620
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by SMARTINSEN View Post
    I have not followed closely, and I am not about to wade through a 13 page flight of fancy to find if it has been mentioned but James Fallows has written, he is an avid pilot, a regular commuter between CA and China and a very good writer over at the Atlantic. I have not read it, probably won't, google if you are so inclined, but I think that he has proposed some realistic scenario.

    Gosh, you're going to hate me (if you don't already).

    I googled James and found two glaring mistakes in two of his articles.

    First he refers to the satellite generated arcs as the aircrafts course, and secondly he is only looking at landing strips and runways.

    He is on the same track as me by suggesting the A/C is on the ground in Asia but he doesn't factor in the LOP so, the spots he suggested are too far south.

    The Satellite chart shows the LOP as far north as Kazakhstan but Mr. Fallows has indicated landing strips much further south.

    So I agree with much of what he says but can see how a person expecting the plane to be landed for re-use by the terrorists could make the same conclusion he did. If you allow for the possibility that the purpose of the hijacking was for the cargo or hostages and not to turn the plane into a dirty bomb as was bandied about a week ago, the possibility of a wilderness landing site would expand the search area.

    Thanks for the suggestion Steve.

  26. #621
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Have they checked for it in North Korea?
    Aw come on, like we have satellites looking down on North Korea?
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  27. #622
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Have they checked for it in North Korea?
    No, it could not have reached NK undetected.

  28. #623
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by S/V Laura Ellen View Post
    How are you coming up with this statement?
    On the LOP as far west as Kazakhstan would be more correct and on the ground because the report stated the signal was from the plane on the ground, due to the fuel being exhausted.

  29. #624
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Too many variables, insufficient facts leads to a lot of speculation.
    Undoubtedly there is information that will never see the light of day.

    Just have to wait for a wreck or debris to show up, or something far worse.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  30. #625
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Full Tilt View Post
    On the LOP as far west as Kazakhstan would be more correct and on the ground because the report stated the signal was from the plane on the ground, due to the fuel being exhausted.
    Big difference between 'it could be as far west as Kazakhstan' and your original statement 'on the ground near Kazakhstan'.
    You can't just make stuff off and pass it up as fact unless you are FOX News.
    Allan of the Grove
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  31. #626
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by S/V Laura Ellen View Post
    Big difference between 'it could be as far west as Kazakhstan' and your original statement 'on the ground near Kazakhstan'.
    You can't just make stuff off and pass it up as fact unless you are FOX News.
    Nitpicking and obfuscation.

  32. #627
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Too many variables, insufficient facts leads to a lot of speculation.
    Undoubtedly there is information that will never see the light of day.

    Just have to wait for a wreck or debris to show up, or something far worse.
    The cat is alive and dead.

  33. #628
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Full Tilt View Post
    On the LOP as far west as Kazakhstan would be more correct and on the ground because the report stated the signal was from the plane on the ground, due to the fuel being exhausted.
    So here's a question. Why is there only ONE set of LOP data, from supposedly the last ping? What about the previous six or seven pings? If an LOP was plotted for each of these, wouldnt that help remove the ambiguity about whether the aircraft was on the northern or southern arc? Given the aircrafts speed, wouldnt successive LOP's be spread further apart, in the direction of travel? Maybe the sattelites dont log that much data, or maybe its a conspiracy.
    Or maybe I am just too damn ignorant about old school navigation. Dunno!

    Pete
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  34. #629
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    Can anyone direct me to the emergency procedure for a 777 electrical fire?

    Having had one in a Cobra is far different than a fly-by-wire (FBW) airliner, but it was damned hard to breathe.

    The procedure was to check all the pressure instruments and warning lights, turn off the generator and battery to de-energize the entire system and (hopefully) put out the fire, pull all the DC circuit breakers, turn on the generator then push in the breakers one at a time to isolate the bad circuit.

    Obviously shutting down ALL the power wouldn't be plausible on a FBW airplane that relies heavily on a flight director/autopilot but going to minimum power would account for lack of communication and transponder signals. Then, if the crew was overcome the autopilot just kept on flying until fuel exhaustion.
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

  35. #630
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    Default Re: Malaysia Airlines 777-200 Missing...

    No idea. I think a plane has several power sources. The main power is probably cut to fight the fire and the systems are kept a active with low power emercency power.

    This is how a ship works.

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