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Thread: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

  1. #1
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    Default Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Or will they break their treaty with the Ukraine?

    A treaty signed in 1994 by the US and Britain could pull both countries into a war to protect Ukraine if President Putin's troops cross into the country.
    Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma – the then-rulers of the USA, UK, Russia and Ukraine - agreed to the The Budapest Memorandum as part of the denuclearization of former Soviet republics after the dissolution of the Soviet Union.
    Technically it means that if Russia has invaded Ukraine then it would be difficult for the US and Britain to avoid going to war.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2um62TnBu

    Ukraine pleads for Britain and US to come to its rescue as Russia accused of 'invasion'
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-invasion.html

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    No.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    The USA? With 0 as CiC?
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

    Grieving love unsaid. | Tomorrow will fail someday. | Tell them today, OK?

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    No.
    There is no treaty. Treaties must be approved by Congress.
    A "memorandum" was signed by the US, UK, and Russia.
    Not sure what constitutes a memorandum, or what the legalities are.
    Last edited by Jim Bow; 03-02-2014 at 12:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Hope not. The main goal of getting nukes out of the Ukraine has long happened. There's a long and confusing history down in that area but right now the parts where Russia is posturing are the parts that turn towards Russia and are rejecting the provisional government anyway. Bad stuff happens in nations that let their ethnic tensions get the upper hand and that's where Ukraine is at just now. If Russia acts to protect civilians from some form of terror, not a bad thing. If, as is probably more likely given Putin, Russia uses this as a way to annex part of the Ukraine, a part that was a thousand or so years ago the real start and heart of the Russian kingdom, then things will get very messy.

    But western military intervention is nuts. Even if we had a clue as to how to make things better, which we have not, there is no way we can get armed forces into any useful position.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    I would hardly think so.

    But the more Putin follows his own agenda tactically, the worse off for Russia strategically, as in reduced business investment, etc.

    Putin has allowed his KGB innards to get control of his faculties. Obama told him already that we recognize their strategic interests and there are venues for hashing it all out. Putin's willful actions will not play well in the UN.
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Would you like that?

    Wars offer a great many business opportunities.

    Just ask Dick Cheney.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    What would Romney have done?
    Not go to war I'd say. Maybe look at the business side though………………..

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Will Geng find peace?

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Need to keep an eye on the situation. if Russia escalates the crisis with drone strikes,, rendition, water boarding, collateral damage,.....then something must be done.

    I see a russia ship has just made a port call in Cuba..they say to pick up supplies...perhaps surplus water boards.

    Be alert

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by slug View Post
    Need to keep an eye on the situation. if Russia escalates the crisis with drone strikes,, rendition, water boarding, collateral damage,.....then something must be done.

    I see a russia ship has just made a port call in Cuba..they say to pick up supplies...perhaps surplus water boards.

    Be alert
    Irony becomes you slug…………..

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    Would you like that?

    Wars offer a great many business opportunities.

    Just ask Dick Cheney.
    It's pretty obvious Russia doesn't have any Weapons of Mass Destruction otherwise the Right would be baying for war.
    Try to work out what the marketing guy wants you to do then do precisely the opposite.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?


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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    I certainly hope not, Geng.
    "It is what you read when you don't have to that determines what you will be when you can't help it." - Oscar Wilde

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by htom View Post
    The USA? With 0 as CiC?
    0, you say?
    You just aren't used to a Commander in Chief who might consider diplomacy as a primary tool.

    Your heros lie and provoke to get into battle for the riches, while pushing our youth into the meat grinder.

    Obama has his hands full keeping the hawks off the lawn, screeching for blood.
    Study Peace

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    There is no treaty, nothing was ever ratified by the Senate. There is simply a memorandum of understanding, surely no military obligation.

    This is moronic, are you really pining for WWIII? Nuclear holocaust? You had better damned well hope that "O" does nothing.
    Steve Martinsen

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    The solution seems simple, however. Just as Czechoslovakia did after the Soviet Union collapsed; form two separate countries. The West with it's cultural ties can go the path to the EU, the East with it's Russian ties can align with Russia. People seem to be as politically and culturally gregarious as cattle at feeding time.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by HeliPilot View Post
    The solution seems simple, however. Just as Czechoslovakia did after the Soviet Union collapsed; form two separate countries. The West with it's cultural ties can go the path to the EU, the East with it's Russian ties can align with Russia. People seem to be as politically and culturally gregarious as cattle at feeding time.
    You are assuming Putin will go along with having 2 countries.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    True, but even a former KGB agent with natural 'hawkish' tendencies must realize that dealing with some sort of on-going insurrection in western Ukraine would not be in Russia's, or anyone else's, best interests.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Gee...what about the Hungarian Ukrainians...will they get their own country to ?

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    If Putin wants to put himself, his military, political and financial assets in the midst of a civil war, let him. He learned as much from Russia's experience in Afghanistan as we learned from ours in Vietnam - nothing.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    If Putin wants to put himself, his military, political and financial assets in the midst of a civil war, let him. He learned as much from Russia's experience in Afghanistan as we learned from ours in Vietnam - nothing.
    The Ukraine is mostly open spaces easy to control.
    Afghanistan is mostly mountains hard to control.
    Vietnam is mostly jungle also hard to control.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Query: would Medvedev have pulled this? For some reason I think he is more rational than Putin.

    The more Putin pushes, the greater the blowback economically and diplomatically. It's not going to be fun to be Russian for awhile.
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    The Ukraine is mostly open spaces easy to control.
    Afghanistan is mostly mountains hard to control.
    Vietnam is mostly jungle also hard to control
    Geography isn't demographics. I see you've learned nothing as well.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by slug View Post

    Be alert
    There are already too many lert's in the world.
    Stay calm, be brave....wait for the signs. Possibly precariously prevaricating.
    .

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    I heard on the BBC that America may retaliate with the Magnitsky Act, applying it to Russian politicians who authorized the intrusion into Ukraine

    G8 meeting in Russia looks canceled.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    I hope not, we haven't the forces to do anything.

    It appears to me that Putin has defined his own version of the Monroe Doctrine, Russia can do whatever it deems necessary within it's sphere of influence.

    Nick

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    If Russia enters the Ukraine lets invade Cuba.
    We get beaches and rum, and it's all 90 miles from Key West.

    Seems like a good trade.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    No, the US and UK will not go to war with Russia. What are you, crazy?

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    bump

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    No, the US and UK will not go to war with Russia. What are you, crazy?
    I also do not think the US or the UK will go to war with Russia.

    I just wonder now many people knew we had a treaty (or agreement) with the Ukraine and the world is going to view us as weak and not trustworthy.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by genglandoh View Post
    I also do not think the US or the UK will go to war with Russia.

    I just wonder now many people knew we had a treaty (or agreement) with the Ukraine and the world is going to view us as weak and not trustworthy.
    The world already views the US as untrustworthy. Unless you meant you personally

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Accidental war is the danger but I wouldn't put it past Putin to stage a 'Gulf of Tonkin' type charade to justify interference. In fact he may have already. I don't think shooting war will not be to the Ukranian's advantage in the long term but it depends on whether they are content to be patient. Russia may be working on the 'possession is 9/10 of the law' principle.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    The notion that we and the Brits would have obligated ourselves to go to war for Ukraine shows a slim grasp of how things work. asking how medvedev would have handled this is really telling. Medvedev was holding the seat for Putin.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    If Russia enters the Ukraine lets invade Cuba.
    We get beaches and rum, and it's all 90 miles from Key West.

    Seems like a good trade.
    You tried that once and blew it.
    Try to work out what the marketing guy wants you to do then do precisely the opposite.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    If we just lifted the sanctions on Cuba, I don't think we'd need to invade.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26410431
    Putin is playing a dangerous game in my opinion. As for the West going to war, I think it would opening the gates of hell.
    At the age of 62 I have come to realise that you can't breed out stupidity.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Russia has nucs and Putin , there won't be a war with the West. The Russian version of the Munroe Doctrine at play.
    Try to work out what the marketing guy wants you to do then do precisely the opposite.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Gerard>
    Everett, WA

    Aux barricades

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    This is a longshot and I may be wrong. Putin might be like Palin and not read the papers but think he might be aware that our armed forces are reeling from over ten years of continuous combat? Maybe we should threaten to cut off wheat sales. Think the tough talking pols from the wheat belt can sell that to their owners....agribusiness? This is very complicated stuff. Obamas going to do exactly what I want him to do....nothing.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Russia has nucs and Putin , there won't be a war with the West. The Russian version of the Munroe Doctrine at play.
    Russia has another weapon, all Western Europe's gas supplies . Any talk of a trade embargo is a joke.
    Try to work out what the marketing guy wants you to do then do precisely the opposite.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Russia has another weapon, all Western Europe's gas supplies . Any talk of a trade embargo is a joke.
    What are they ( the Russians) going to do with the gas? Eat it? Seems to me they need the commerce as much as Europe needs the gas.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Another good reason for not getting in this one is that we cannot be sure of what side is about what anyway. The provisional government has more than a whiff of fascism about it, the alleged sniper crimes against the previous administration are very peculiar and the snipers may have been provocateurs, not government agents. Or not. Hard to know but there were a lot of western right leaning forces in the run up to the coup. So much of the Ukrainian military is defecting that the whole bit is too weird.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Bay View Post
    If we just lifted the sanctions on Cuba, I don't think we'd need to invade.
    Give that man a (Cuban) cigar!!

    Of course, it would take cooperation from the idiots who dominate the House...

    If it could be done by executive order, it looks like a master stroke, at first blush.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Russia has nucs and Putin , there won't be a war with the West. The Russian version of the Munroe Doctrine at play.
    I agree completely.
    Steve Martinsen

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    A very pertinent piece, especially the last two para's.
    As regards treaties are concerned, they get ripped up on a regular basis by the most powerful party to the contract when it suits, and ignored when it suits, and brutally enforced when it suits.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    What are they ( the Russians) going to do with the gas? Eat it? Seems to me they need the commerce as much as Europe needs the gas.
    How long could the Europeans do without the free flow of gas and how long could the Russians survive with a reduced gas income. The answer would take less than a winter to work out.
    Try to work out what the marketing guy wants you to do then do precisely the opposite.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Putin will do what he wants, and the Russian people are tough enough to survive some disruption in their income. The West, however, can't do without that gas. I favor a hands off foreign policy, so I approve of Obama's restraint. However, I do wish he'd quit being such a blowhard. And that hands off policy does embolden every ambitious, unscrupulous jerk of a leader to make a grab.

    regards,
    Waddie
    I started with nothing and I still have most of it....

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Waddie View Post
    Putin will do what he wants, and the Russian people are tough enough to survive some disruption in their income. The West, however, can't do without that gas. I favor a hands off foreign policy, so I approve of Obama's restraint. However, I do wish he'd quit being such a blowhard. And that hands off policy does embolden every ambitious, unscrupulous jerk of a leader to make a grab.

    regards,
    Waddie

    Actually the Russian people are fed up with poverty. One of the reasons Putin is strong arming Ukraine is to set an example and warn his own Russians that street protests aren't very wise.

    The average Russian has a very hard life.

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    Default Re: Will the US and the UK go to war with Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by slug View Post
    Actually the Russian people are fed up with poverty. One of the reasons Putin is strong arming Ukraine is to set an example and warn his own Russians that street protests aren't very wise.

    The average Russian has a very hard life.
    I'm sure they do, I didn't comment on that in the post, though, just that they are a tough people and can take it. I think most poor people get fed up with poverty. However, few do much about it, though it can sometimes lead to revolution. I think it would have to get much worse in Russia before anybody revolts. Besides, many Russians like having a strong man in charge. When they do get "fed up" with Putin, they'll put a clone in place. Maybe worse than Putin.

    regards,
    Waddie
    I started with nothing and I still have most of it....

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