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Thread: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

  1. #71
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    James, while I was struggling to get the above Michalak model post together you slipped your skinning report and pics by. Congratulation on your Whitehall progress. Would you, when you have time, briefly tell why you choose nylon over polyester and Cory's goop instead of another finish? I'd like to seriously consider other options for my SoF builds, where I've always used polyester fabric and first oil based varnish and now water based varnish.
    It's exciting for me to see you and Tim building these boats.
    Steve Chambers
    blindeyeboats.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I have so far used aircraft Dacron (polyester), #10 Duck canvas, and nylon for skins, with oil based polyurethane, butyrate dope, old fashioned linseed oil/paint/turps, hypalon rubber paint and two-part urethane for coatings. Honestly, they all work okay. But the über-toughest is the urethane coating over either polyester or nylon, which is what I used on my 20' umiak.

    Corey's urethane goop is a pain in the ass to apply, and not the prettiest, but it is total rhino-hide, man. Just ridiculously tough and bulletproof. My second choice would be the hypalon like what Dyson specs. But canvas and paint works surprisingly well too. For the fabric? Polyester is easier to heat-shrink. Nylon is easier to sew and stretch tight. The cotton duck is the most pleasant to work with by far, and it's cheaper, and it shrinks tight effortlessly just by pouring a kettle of boiling water over your boat. I dunno. Try some different ones out and see what you like.

    I live in the same town as Corey, so it's pretty easy for me to get his stuff, but he does have a website and ships all over.
    Last edited by James McMullen; 03-10-2014 at 11:39 PM.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    James or Tim, I seem to recall that your newly built SoF rowboats were going to be launched this past weekend. If so, I/we would like to read a report and a few pics would be great. Lots of interest in both boats, especially James' stretched one.

    Steve C.
    blindeyeboats

  4. #74
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I launched a new Pygmy Coho kayak on Sunday. (Boat floated. I lived.) I think the new rowboats will have to wait for another weekend. Instead, we did two solid days of bronze casting. A rough life, indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    I launched a new Pygmy Coho kayak on Sunday. (Boat floated. I lived.) I think the new rowboats will have to wait for another weekend. Instead, we did two solid days of bronze casting. A rough life, indeed.
    What for do you pour?
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  6. #76
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    For fun, mostly. I cast a gudgeon and part of a u-joint for Andy McConkey's new Harrier, a sounding and a bronze hammer head for me, and a carved orca for Kara. (James taught a bronze casting class at Cama Beach. He's got another coming in late April, I think.)
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    I launched a new Pygmy Coho kayak on Sunday. (Boat floated. I lived.) I think the new rowboats will have to wait for another weekend. Instead, we did two solid days of bronze casting. A rough life, indeed.
    Tim, I take it that your SoF rowboat is finished or nearly so? James' posted pics a couple weeks ago showing the finish being applied to his version. And he mentioned that you were following suit soon. I'm looking forward to the launch pics and how they work for both of you.
    Steve C.

  8. #78
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    Yes, it's basically done. I need to install my oarlock pads and rubrails. That's all. Probably a few hours work. It could be a few weeks before I get to float her though. I'll add photos once the deed is done.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Congratulations on the double launch this year! Pygmy Coho & upcoming SoF. Nicely done. I look forward to seeing the photos and stories here. And...I think you deserve a special medal for patience or tolerance for putting up with Mc.....(O.K. never mind. Gopez out...again).

  10. #80
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    This may be a really stupid idea, but I've been thinking about how I might tackle the build of the LFH17 in SOF with ply frames. And I started thinking about the gunwale set up. While the inwale and out wale with blocks between looks good, it seems to be a fair amount of work with all those blocks. If you're using lathes as frames it makes a lot of sense, but seems rather vestigial with ply frames. And with ply frames, you have the thickness (if that makes sense) oriented at 90° to what the lathes would be, so you don't have much strength where the ply frame joins the gunwale. And you've also got the rubbing strip which is needed to cover the top of the skin.

    So, I wondered about a different approach:



    (Apologies for my drawing skills.) (Stringers not shown)

    I'm thinking:
    - single gunwale
    - a triangular ply brace screwed and epoxy filleted to the ply frame (probably deeper, top to bottom, than in the sketch)
    - the brace glued and screwed to the gunwale
    - then the rubbing strip (with the fabric sandwiched between it and the gunwale)

    Does this seem like a workable plan? My aim here is to reduce the complexity and hence the time to build.
    Osbert
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    Scratch, a Welsford Walkabout, and Selkie, a Clint Chase Drake 17 rowboat

    http://forthsailoar.osbert.org

  11. #81
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gopez View Post
    Congratulations on the double launch this year! Pygmy Coho & upcoming SoF. Nicely done. I look forward to seeing the photos and stories here. And...I think you deserve a special medal for patience or tolerance for putting up with Mc.....(O.K. never mind. Gopez out...again).
    Sail & Oarseason will be here soon. Then that'll be the end of building for me. It'll just be repairs until then. I really need to work on Big Food's centerboard trunk, among other things.

    I also need to finish a suite of sails that I'm sewing for my upcoming Hvalsoe 18/19, (start and launch date never to be announced).

    Back to the thread, I'd like to make a SOF St. Lawrence River skill with a sliding seat. I have documented offsets and a lines drawing from Mystic. I think it'd be great.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I'm thinking:
    - single gunwale
    - a triangular ply brace screwed and epoxy filleted to the ply frame (probably deeper, top to bottom, than in the sketch)
    - the brace glued and screwed to the gunwale
    - then the rubbing strip (with the fabric sandwiched between it and the gunwale)

    Does this seem like a workable plan? My aim here is to reduce the complexity and hence the time to build.

    ******
    Osbert, Of the four SoF rowboat I've built, I've used only blocked gunnels. All Douglas Fir. 2- 1/2"X1 1/2" w/ 1/2"X 1 1/2" blocks = 1 1/2X 1 1/2 gunnels. The 1/2 X 1 1/2 pieces bend Ok, but seems to me trying to bend a solid piece, close to this size, is going to be a lot of work, defeating your intent. I've only followed what a lot of wood framed kayak builders use, and it seems to work out well.
    After you've built both ways then you'll be able to compare.

    Steve C.
    blindeyeboats

  13. #83
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Sail & Oarseason will be here soon. Then that'll be the end of building for me. It'll just be repairs until then. I really need to work on Big Food's centerboard trunk, among other things.

    I also need to finish a suite of sails that I'm sewing for my upcoming Hvalsoe 18/19, (start and launch date never to be announced).

    Back to the thread, I'd like to make a SOF St. Lawrence River skill with a sliding seat. I have documented offsets and a lines drawing from Mystic. I think it'd be great.
    Tim, A friend on Saltspring Island recently was talking of building a SoF to the SLRS lines. Yours should be another beauty when built next winter (or following?). I'm still awaiting the launch of yours and James' Whitehalls.

    Steve C.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Osbert View Post
    ...

    I'm thinking:
    - single gunwale
    - a triangular ply brace screwed and epoxy filleted to the ply frame (probably deeper, top to bottom, than in the sketch)
    - the brace glued and screwed to the gunwale
    - then the rubbing strip (with the fabric sandwiched between it and the gunwale)

    Does this seem like a workable plan? My aim here is to reduce the complexity and hence the time to build.
    I think you end up with a heavier or weaker, harder to construct gunwale -- heavier if you increase the size to match the strength and stiffness of the gunwale with blocks; weaker and not as stiff if you don't increase the size. (In some ways, a gunwale made of a 1x1, 1x1 blocks, and another 1x1 is mechanically like a 1x3; leaving out the blocks would make it like a 1x2.)
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

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  15. #85
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    Thanks for the feedback. What I didn't make clear was that i was thinking to make the 'rubbing strip' the same dimensions as the gunwale.

    So the same timbers as inwale outwale combo, but with the fabric between rather than the bblocks. Does that change your views at all? Or does the block system add extra strength?

    Cheers
    Osbert
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    Scratch, a Welsford Walkabout, and Selkie, a Clint Chase Drake 17 rowboat

    http://forthsailoar.osbert.org

  16. #86
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Osbert View Post
    . . .My aim here is to reduce the complexity and hence the time to build.
    Um. . .I think you might be seriously overestimating both of these, amigo. Didn't you follow along just now where Tim and I built a couple of these over no more than a few consecutive weekends?

    And besides, the open gunwale is wholly functional, providing a substantial amount of stiffness and strength for its weight due to its girder cross-section. It's just like an I--beam structurally, with the inwales and outwales forming the flanges and the intermittent blocking serving as the web. You have to transmit the force of your rowing to the boat through this structure too. I don't think you've got any improvement at all in your proposed mods.

  17. #87
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I for one have "discovered" those who provide only a drawing. In reference to post #30.
    An I won't be going back.
    Glad to hear a report on those who do a better job.

  18. #88

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    how much does a sof lfh 17 weigh?
    i have noticed quite a bit of framing and stringer are used.
    my 3mm lfh 17 with deck and transom weighs 55lb. and has no stringers.
    also noticed a sof being lanched with a dolly.
    this should not be necessary when portability is what we strive for in these craft.
    my frail 70 yr, 168 lb frame has no trouble carrying the glued lap model.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/79191071@N04/13487875935/

  19. #89
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by salkaln2 View Post
    how much does a sof lfh 17 weigh?
    i have noticed quite a bit of framing and stringer are used.
    my 3mm lfh 17 with deck and transom weighs 55lb. and has no stringers.
    also noticed a sof being lanched with a dolly.
    this should not be necessary when portability is what we strive for in these craft.
    my frail 70 yr, 168 lb frame has no trouble carrying the glued lap model.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/79191071@N04/13487875935/
    Congratulations on your 55# LFH17 and being frail and able to launch w/o a dolly. The first SoF LFH 17 I built weighed a bit over 60# and the second ended up same as yours 55#. I must be frailer than you, as I like to use the dolly for launching and moving them around. But then I'm older at almost 74.
    Yes there are frames and stringers in these SoF rowboats as that's how this type of construction turns out. I don't see a transom in the plans for a LFH 17 in John Gardner's book. Please explain where your transom comes from? And would you post some pics of your LHF17 showing inside and maybe you rowing it? Thanks.
    Steve C.
    blindeyeboats
    Last edited by asloth; 03-29-2014 at 11:20 PM. Reason: requesting pics

  20. #90
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I am building Dave Gentry's kidyak and wee lassie for the grandkids , and want to build a crab claw splinter for myself.
    I also want to lash them , rather than screw and epoxy.
    Are there any tutorial videos on lashing SOF boats?.
    Regards Rob J.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Portland View Post
    I am building Dave Gentry's kidyak and wee lassie for the grandkids , and want to build a crab claw splinter for myself.
    I also want to lash them , rather than screw and epoxy.
    Are there any tutorial videos on lashing SOF boats?.
    Regards Rob J.
    I've lashed a couple of different ways and they've all worked. Search and you will find examples. First boat I started in the center of a length of sinew tied a surgeons knot, second boat I went with the eskimo knot finishing with half hitches. Prefer the second method both worked. You can easily get it tight enough to dent the wood and knots hold well in artificial sinew. Same as most things just get started and you will figure it out.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Yes , I guess you are right.
    I've seen a couple of youtubes of lashing.
    My hands are pretty arthritic , but I note that apparently the artificial sinew will "hold" for a bit.
    Which may be all I need.
    I've got everything made , just stalled at this lashing a bit.
    But yes , I guess the advantage of lashing is you can just keep trying , till you get it right.
    Thanks for your reply.
    Regards Rob J.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    G'day Rob.
    I used this Instructible as a guide.

    A few links here on this google page. I used Kevlar string and a basic square lashing but all lashings connected as the string web stiffens the frame and keeps the boat from working too much in operation.
    http://www.google.com.au/search?clie...Eq3r8AfwkoGIAw

    http://capefalconkayak.com/howtoskinakayak.html

    http://seawolfkayak.com/skin-on-frame-kayak

    I think enough info here Rob.
    I didn't ever cover my frame and passe it on to someone else to finish.
    You might look up Geodesic boats as well.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Yes , I studied Geodesic boats many years ago , and got close to building one.
    This is the youtube I've been watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy9JOv3mHgw .
    I got a scroll saw to cut out the frames , my hands have locked up several times , cutting out each frame.
    Thats ok , I can just turn the saw off , stretch my fingers , and start again.
    I want to lash the boats , and don't want to get too pissed off , if I have to stop , and start again too often.
    If the artificial sinew will hold for a bit , I can try to keep my hands working , and just keep at it.
    I'll give it a try , I'll get there in the end.
    Rob J.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    2.13. I bored two holes in the frame corner and laced through the holes Rob.
    Keel lashing as video says.

    Make a bent lever to tighten the lashing from a stick with a knob on the upper part. Then if you have to stop half way you hang a weight on it to keep the tension.
    Look out for a PM.
    Jeff

  26. #96
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I guess I'll figure something out.
    It is something completely new to me , lashing , but I'm looking forward to seeing positive results.
    And then the stitching on the skin.
    I'll be really happy to see the first one finished.
    And so will my grand daughter.
    Rob J.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Rob,

    If you have that much trouble with your hands, perhaps lashing is not for you.
    What is your problem with screw and glue?
    Seemed much easier to me, and I don't have problems with my hands.
    Drilled holes for lashing seems to be the absolute worst for starting rot, IMHO.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Portland View Post
    I am building Dave Gentry's kidyak and wee lassie for the grandkids , and want to build a crab claw splinter for myself.
    I also want to lash them , rather than screw and epoxy.
    Are there any tutorial videos on lashing SOF boats?.
    Regards Rob J.

    The Kidyak is a fun boat for a small kid. My daughter loves hers. You're not going to find an easier boat to build.



    Fighting arthritic hands, I might suggest using a short cut from a dowel rod or an old tool handle to wrap your sinew around for pulling it tight. Also, I use sail needles to thread any holes in the frames or stems, rather than trying to poke stiff sinew ends through on their own. The sail needles also work nicely for doing the cinching part of your lashings before you tie them off. They cut time and wear and tear on your hands. After six skin boats and a model SoF peapod build, I'm kind of over the build medium for a little while, but I'm sure I'll come back to it at some point. It's really the easiest way to put a pretty boat together.



    Trevor

  29. #99
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Thanks Trevor , that is the sort of thing I wanted to read.
    Your daughter , and her kidyak , are they the ones on Dave Gentry's site , in the pool?.
    My grand daughter that I am building the kidyak for is the same size as your daughter , and all she wants to do is paddle out with the dophins at Mandurah , in WA (Aust).
    A handbuilt lashed SOF kidyak built by her grandpa to me is the perfect boat to do it with.
    Regards Rob J.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Portland View Post
    Thanks Trevor , that is the sort of thing I wanted to read.
    Your daughter , and her kidyak , are they the ones on Dave Gentry's site , in the pool?.
    My grand daughter that I am building the kidyak for is the same size as your daughter , and all she wants to do is paddle out with the dophins at Mandurah , in WA (Aust).
    A handbuilt lashed SOF kidyak built by her grandpa to me is the perfect boat to do it with.
    Regards Rob J.
    Yup. Had to double check, but yes, that's her on Dave's website. When you have the boat finished, I suggest making your granddaughter tip it over in shallow water, under direct supervision, before turning her loose. That way she knows how to climb out. She's not going to like it, but it's good safety knowledge to have. I've made my daughter do it at the start of the past two summers. It's a fast little boat and she nearly outruns me in my Chuckanut 12.

    Good luck with your build.

    Trevor

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Thanks Trevor.
    Yes , you can be sure that she will learn recovery , and well.
    Her father was a top rower , he knows the dangers.
    I suspected the little girl in the kidyak in the pool might have had a dunking.
    That photo is my screensaver , for now.
    Regards and thanks Rob J.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I got my sail repair kit needles in the post today.
    Hopefully I'll be lashing the kidyak soon.
    Regards Rob J.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by trefor View Post
    Yup. Had to double check, but yes, that's her on Dave's website. When you have the boat finished, I suggest making your granddaughter tip it over in shallow water, under direct supervision, before turning her loose. That way she knows how to climb out. She's not going to like it, but it's good safety knowledge to have. I've made my daughter do it at the start of the past two summers. It's a fast little boat and she nearly outruns me in my Chuckanut 12.

    Good luck with your build.

    Trevor
    Very good idea and if you can get to rolling the boat you'll need a spray skirt, then that can be a lot of fun as well as an advantage in a breaking sea. I make a point of a couple of rolls and a tip out and recover in deep water most every trip.
    Well……………….. maybe not in midwinter…………...

  34. #104
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Yes , I can see plenty of "play time" with the boat , tipping it over , getting out , getting back in again.
    Of course she would be wearing a PFD , and I would imagine that would make a roll a lot more difficult.
    But in time , I'm hoping that yes , she will be rolling her skirted kayak with the best of 'em.
    Regards Rob J.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    PFDs actually help rolling the boat. Makes for more counterforce to lever you up again. It's all in the hips

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