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Thread: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

  1. #36
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    How would these boats tolerate being heaved up on a car roof on a regular basis? I have often contemplated a SOF row boat for exercise rowing to get away from either leaving a boat at the water or needing a trailer.
    I do this to my Ruth on a regular basis, and have car topped her for somewhat more than 8000 miles. The Shenandoah Whitehall is heavier and more awkward to carry around by one's self, but only in comparison to Ruth or a kayak, etc. Certainly no trailer is needed.

    Yeadon: This is the first Dave Gentry designed boat that I've built. His directions are solid, and the boat has gone together in a fairly straightforward manner.
    Thanks for the feedback. We have all seen plans that consist solely of drawings and (hopefully) a building key. Without going into a boat building treatise, I have tried to illustrate, with more or less detail, each step required. It's always good to find that others can decipher what I am trying to get across.

    I recently sent James the updated building guide, if you haven't seen it. More pictures, metric conversions, etc.

    Looks like you are doing a bang up job, in any case. What are you using for lashing?

  2. #37
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I believe we're using this waxed nylon twine, which is from Corey Freedman's skinboat school in Anacortes. We've also used some lighter weight waxed twine from Fisheries. The stuff from Corey's site is great.

    The only thing that I did different from your directions was that I fastened the transom knee to the transom before tying everything together at the stern. (Later, James said you do that these days, too, but haven't updated your directions quite yet.) I found that I did a lot less swearing than James did when installing the transom.

    I plan to use this boat for cartopping. For instance, last year we drove out to Glacier National Park. It would have been nice for my wife and I to go for a quiet row in the Whitehall around Lake McDonald. We're headed to Yellowstone this summer, so we'll have the boat for that trip. At some point, I'd love to build a Ruth and add a sliding seat. I'd use her to hurry up and down the Ship Canal and other in city locales. I have a couple other boats to build between now and then, though.
    Last edited by Yeadon; 02-20-2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason: I keep thinking of things to add.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Has anyone tried using cable ties to lash stringers to frame? I'm not obsessed about traditional appearance, and cable ties would seem a quick and easy solution.
    Osbert
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    Scratch, a Welsford Walkabout, and Selkie, a Clint Chase Drake 17 rowboat

    http://forthsailoar.osbert.org

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I don't think you can get cable ties as tight, they're very much not as strong. And they would leave a much bigger lump poking into the skin. You just need to learn how to lash properly. It's not that hard, it's very effective, and as Tim says, it's really quite pleasant in a way.

    You might use a few cable ties as temporary positioners, I suppose. I used baling wire in a couple of spots to hold things close until I could get down to lashing them properly. But I strongly doubt that cable ties would be a sufficient permanent fastening.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    With the right tools, you can get the cable ties very tight, but you're probably correct on the strength issue more than anything else. We use 70# test artificial sinew - although the stuff you bought appears to be much nicer.

    ETA : You can get some seriously beefy ones if you want, but they're not really good for the application. To wit:

    http://www.panduit.com/heiler/PartDr...127BS--ENG.pdf - some go up to over 1000 pounds!
    Last edited by Canoez; 02-20-2014 at 03:19 PM.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    James and Tim,
    a few questions if you don't mind;
    Did you laminate the wales on the frames or on the bench?
    Did you over bend them when you glued them up?
    How much did they spring back if any?
    What kind of glue did you use?
    Thank you
    Royce

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Our jigging method for making the compound cuts on the stringers worked well and we're making a few changes to the jig itself. It worked like a charm on the 6 boats that we've used them on. The right cut, made by inexperienced students the first time around.
    Canoez,
    It seems like i have to sneak up on those fits a little at a time so they don't end up shy.
    Would it be possible to see a pic of your jig?
    Thank you
    Royce

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oyster View Post
    Did you laminate the wales on the frames or on the bench?
    On the bench, inwales and outwales all in a stack so they'd take the exact same curve.
    Did you over bend them when you glued them up?
    Yes, about 5 inches of rocker over 16'.
    How much did they spring back if any?
    Some, an inch or so, I guess.
    What kind of glue did you use?
    Titebond III.

    Thank you
    Royce
    You're welcome! What are you thinking of building?

  9. #44
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Thanks for the info James,
    I was thinking a 14' to 20' sailboat next winter.
    I crewed on a rawson 26 sloop for my dad and sailed what I remember being called a tahoe 10 as a boy, 40 odd years ago.
    Thought it would be fun to give it a whirl again.
    Thanks again
    Royce

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oyster View Post
    Canoez,
    It seems like i have to sneak up on those fits a little at a time so they don't end up shy.
    Would it be possible to see a pic of your jig?
    Thank you
    Royce
    Royce - Sorry for the delayed reaction - I've been a busy guy. I did a blog post about the method we're using, but we've simplified what we're doing since I wrote it.

    Take a look at this:


    We've simplified the jig and got rid of the bracket. The long finger on the blue part (the actual jig) is gone. What you see is a simple fixture that mimics the stem in thickness, profile and the notch for the keel stringer. Above the keel stringer are two large holes cut with a Forstner bit for clamps to hold the part to the keel stringer. A small piece of stock that runs athwartships at the middle stringer is screwed to the back edge of the form and clamped to the stringers to assure that the jig is vertical. A bakuma style saw (no spine) is used to cut the stringers flush with the form where they pass through the jig. The offset line marked on the jig face is the point of the cut stringer so that you don't get bits poking too far forward at the stem.

    Works like a charm
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  11. #46
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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Reasons for going with a fully lashed frame as opposed to screw and glue?

    Are you epoxying those joints as well or are these boats held together completely by lashing apart from the laminated gunwale structure?

    Thanks,

    Ian

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Osbert View Post
    I'm still interested in building the SOF LFH17. I discussed with Alec Jordan of Jordan Boats whether he'd be willing to make up a kit of floor and frames cut with his CNC set up. But unfortunately he's got too much other work on at the moment to take on kit development. He did say that if I produced a CNC cutting file, he'd be happy to cut it.

    I've got no idea how I'd go about producing such a file, and suspect I'd be quicker to just cut the frames by hand, though I find it a tedious job. Does this seem plausible? Does anyone else have cutting files, or interested in producing them and sharing them? (I'm aware of the IP issues and the need to buy the plans and license from Jim Michalak).
    One possibility would be to draw the frames in sketchup using the offset table. Once you've got a cutting plan laid out in sketchup, export it as a dxf file which the CNC cutting folk should be able to use.

    I'm working on some software that produces dxf files of all the frames of a SOF boat from a design of my own, it could take an offset table from another design as input, but the shapes are currently related to my decked SOF rowboat design, would need some modification for an open boat with gunwales in the Gentry and LFH17 style. I'll probably get around to implementing creating cross frame files in that style as well, will post when I have it sorted, but it may not be in time for your needs. There would also be issues with sharing someone else's design with me - the designer would have to approve of course.

    Here is a picture of a dxf cutting plan for a SOF rowboat I'm working on, it fits on a 4 x 8 ft sheet of ply. As you can see, the frames come in to meet a cockpit rim stringer. It's also got supports on the inside for two straight and parallel stringers that support 20mm dia alu tubular runners for a sliding seat. I'm not far of sending this off the CNC folk, just a few small bits to add.



    Ian

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    Are you epoxying those joints as well or are these boats held together completely by lashing. . . ?
    No epoxy, yuck! I deal with plenty of that in my day job. No screw joints either. Screwing things together is boring. And it doesn't let you tweak and adjust, and fair to a sweet curve on the fly. Lashing is far more adaptable and malleable than rigidly defined joints. Besides, trunnels, rivets, clench nails and lashings are where the flavor is, at least for me. I'm building this boat off the clock, and my client this time is me.

    We don't need any more boats, honestly. Going for getting the maximum enjoyment for the minimum expense. It would be awfully easy to add extra hassle, weight and money to these boats, none of which are part of our design brief. I wouldn't tolerate letting a CNC have all the fun of shaping parts for me either, but we all find different elements that give us satisfaction in our boatbuilding hobby.

    The whole point of building your own boat is so you can do it how you like it. If CNC, screws or epoxy brings you contentment, by all means go for it.
    Last edited by James McMullen; 02-23-2014 at 05:54 PM.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Thanks canoez,
    Even on a a one off, I would not think twice about doing that.
    Well done.
    Royce

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    No epoxy, yuck! I deal with plenty of that in my day job. No screw joints either. Screwing things together is boring. And it doesn't let you tweak and adjust, and fair to a sweet curve on the fly. Lashing is far more adaptable and malleable than rigidly defined joints.
    Steve's LFH17 is lashed together. He did a great job with the boat, but I have one question about lashing. The twine wraps on the outside of the stringers, making it it slightly proud of the wood. Surely not a performance concern, but it does make for wear points as can be seen after a couple of years use. Wear shows particularly at the chine lashings.

    Would it be a lot of extra work to drill the stringers for the twine? Notches would weaken, but holes near the center of a stringer should not. Just wondering, thinking about this building method for a future boat.

    Thanks - Rick

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Rick, On your LHF17 I slightly notched the stringers for the lashing, but not enough, so as you observe, there are small bumps in the skin. I do notch stringers a bit deeper now for a smother skin. Where I do drill 1/8" holes for lashing is the gunnels to move the lashing from the top of the gunnels where it gets worn, especially if car topping inverted. I also tried to follow the Yost kayak building site, which has lots of SoF construction information.

    What future boat do you have in mind?

    Steve C.
    blindeyeboats

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Given this thread is about SOF rowboat designs, can anyone add some comments regarding designs that haven't been mentioned yet? I'm thinking Kudzu Craft has a couple of SOF rowboat designs that no-one has mentioned here yet.

    Ian

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by asloth View Post
    Rick, On your LHF17 I slightly notched the stringers for the lashing, but not enough, so as you observe, there are small bumps in the skin. I do notch stringers a bit deeper now for a smother skin. Where I do drill 1/8" holes for lashing is the gunnels to move the lashing from the top of the gunnels where it gets worn, especially if car topping inverted. I also tried to follow the Yost kayak building site, which has lots of SoF construction information.

    What future boat do you have in mind?

    Steve C.
    blindeyeboats
    Ah, there are small notches, I did not see that before. James' and Tim's pictures do not seem to show any notches. Surely not a big issue, especially if the boats are entered and exited from the water, and not beached often.

    I think we talked briefly about a possible future boat: a fast, car topped, rough water, slide seat rowboat capable of competing in races on the Bay. For now I'm not sure the LFH is that boat, but maybe with flotation and sturdy decking. Still like the looks of the boat Ian is designing.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    Reasons for going with a fully lashed frame as opposed to screw and glue? Are you epoxying those joints as well or are these boats held together completely by lashing apart from the laminated gunwale structure? Thanks, Ian
    Reasons? Great question. Mostly, lashing seemed like more fun than epoxy and fasteners. And I wanted to learn how to lash a boat together. And I wanted to enjoy myself. That's all.

    I won't be epoxying the joints, and I can't say that I feel compelled to do so. The lashings are really very solid. Doesn't seem necessary at all. Grooves for the lashings are an interesting idea, but I'm just not that concerned about the performance.

    I'm enjoying the build. I can't say I really need this boat but it will be fun to try out. It's certainly a nice looking hull form. I have a few other designs in mind for future SOF builds. A crabbing skiff for one. I'd also like a rowing shell with a sliding seat. A steamed frame skin kayak would be fascinating - maybe something from Harvey Golden's book.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    No epoxy, yuck! I deal with plenty of that in my day job. No screw joints either. Screwing things together is boring. And it doesn't let you tweak and adjust, and fair to a sweet curve on the fly. Lashing is far more adaptable and malleable than rigidly defined joints. Besides, trunnels, rivets, clench nails and lashings are where the flavor is, at least for me. I'm building this boat off the clock, and my client this time is me.
    If you don't apply epoxy to the lashing (as Yost describes on his website), do expect the same longevity from the joints? I'm thinking of tennis racket strings, and how they have to be replaced often. Also, do you plan to finish the wood before skinning, and if so how?
    Chris Smead

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    [QUOTE=IanHowick;4076194]Given this thread is about SOF rowboat designs, can anyone add some comments regarding designs that haven't been mentioned yet? I'm thinking Kudzu Craft has a couple of SOF rowboat designs that no-one has mentioned here yet.

    Ian

    I have both of Jeff's books and have suggested his Flyfisher to a fishing friend. Jeff also has an 18' rowboat that's like the LFH17 I've built twice, so will stay w/ it. Dave Gentry has said many times that a lot of the classic rowboats of years past can be adapted to SoF. I'm working on an adaption of a Jim Mickalak rowboat (Oracle) right now. The adaptation is a bit more complicated than I thought it would be but seems to be working out OK and the model looks good.

    Last year I bought plans for two of the BC Handliners and adapted one, the Evans, to SoF and built it. Some changes needed to be made from the original, but generally it looks close and rows well.

    And there are the SoF rowboats that Dave Gentry has designed, has built and sells. Seems to me he's been a major effort to get SoF rowboats designed and build over the last couple of years.

    There are more SoF rowboat choices all the time, which is good.

    Steve C.
    blindeyeboats

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    We've been building Jeff's Stonefly canoe designs with minor mods and the design works out well - haven't built other designs of his yet.

    He did a post showing our results on his blog. I think they were pretty good, really.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Royce - Sorry for the delayed reaction - I've been a busy guy. I did a blog post about the method we're using, but we've simplified what we're doing since I wrote it.

    Take a look at this:


    We've simplified the jig and got rid of the bracket. The long finger on the blue part (the actual jig) is gone. What you see is a simple fixture that mimics the stem in thickness, profile and the notch for the keel stringer. Above the keel stringer are two large holes cut with a Forstner bit for clamps to hold the part to the keel stringer. A small piece of stock that runs athwartships at the middle stringer is screwed to the back edge of the form and clamped to the stringers to assure that the jig is vertical. A bakuma style saw (no spine) is used to cut the stringers flush with the form where they pass through the jig. The offset line marked on the jig face is the point of the cut stringer so that you don't get bits poking too far forward at the stem.

    Works like a charm
    Canoez, brilliant jig and excellent description on your blog. I'd imagine a transom jig, somewhat like this stem jig, could be made up for cutting stringers there. Those end cuts are always difficult for me, and they only get slightly easier w/ time.

    Steve C.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by asloth View Post
    Canoez, brilliant jig and excellent description on your blog. I'd imagine a transom jig, somewhat like this stem jig, could be made up for cutting stringers there. Those end cuts are always difficult for me, and they only get slightly easier w/ time.

    Steve C.
    Thanks! We're thinking of something like that for an Annabelle build. However, we're also thinking of adding notches for the transom for the stringers and the outwales. Our thinking is that the bonds in the notches would be better than endgrain bonded to the face of the transom. The ends of the stringers will be covered by the fabric that wraps the transom, so there wouldn't be any cosmetic issues. The only transom stringers that we'd need to cut are where the inwales meet the quarter knees, but that's easy-peasy.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Floorboards in SoF rowboats. When I built Dave Gentry's Whitehall the floorboards were laid on top of the ply frames. I first used 1/2"X 1 1/2" Doug. Fir slats, but changed to 1/4" ply as the slats were likely to break and possibly puncture skin. The ply floorboard works very well altho doesn't look very boaty. My second build was the LFH17 w/ a "plank" bottom, where I attached a piece of spliced 1/4" ACX ply to bottom stringers. A bottom covered by skin and a floorboard all in one. Its worked very well as long as the skin gets "glued" to the plywood when applying finish and doesn't allow water to seep in. The ply bottom can be seen in this pic of LFH17 #2.



    I'm looking for other multi-chine "plank" bottom boats to adapt to SoF, and while there are many transomed examples, double enders are hard for me to locate. The Chamberlain Gunning Dory is one, and I can't recall the others. Its fun searching tho. Any multi-chine "plank" bottom double enders around 15' to 16' LOA that you're aware of?

    Steve Chambers
    blindeyeboats
    Last edited by asloth; 03-02-2014 at 11:58 AM. Reason: additional info

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Do you guys know where you can get info about clear plastic skin covering. David G says he uses the 20 mil plastic. I just basically need to know what glue you need to use to seal the stem seams and if you need to use heat to shrink the plastic tight. I am about ready to cove my 12' canoe frame. Thanks
    "I see!" said the blind man who picked up his hammer and saw.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Hi Eric
    It's 20 mil vinyl, and you'll want to use HH-66 vinyl cement to do any gluing. You should not heat shrink it - but it is best to skin the boat when the vinyl is good and warm, as if it had been left out in the hot sun for a while. Cold vinyl doesn't stretch at all, and won't conform as well to your curves.
    It should be noted that not all boat shapes will be conducive to skinning with vinyl, transparent or not. If you just can't skin it without getting big wrinkles, then you should likely move to a fabric to skin with.

    Good luck!
    Dave

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    Hi Eric
    It's 20 mil vinyl
    Dave
    Hi Dave, what's "20 mil" in units I can understand? 20 millimetres doesn't make sense as thickness, 0.2 mm doesn't make much sense either.

    Thanks,

    Ian

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    mil is 1/1000 of an inch

    20 mil = about .5mm (which seems a little thin to me . . . .)

    Often the thickness (as with thin steel plate) is expressed as "gauge" - which should not be confused with "gauge" when it relates to shotgun bores. I think the last stuff I used was called 16ga. Apparently "gauge" in this application is not always an exact measurement, which doesn't seem very helpful.

    You can often purchase transparent vinyl at fabric stores (and, in the US, even at some Wal-marts), in which case you must hunt around (or order) for the heaviest weight that they carry. Industrial fabric suppliers are your best bet, though - in the US try www.mauritzon.net

    I want to stress that transparent vinyl looks really cool, but it is not as strong and it does not have nearly the UV resistance as regular skinning fabrics, and it is harder to skin with. I typically do not recommend it.

    Also, and more importantly, Killer Whales, looking up, will only see a vaguely seal shaped object above them, rather than a boat, which could lead to some serious misunderstandings.
    Last edited by DGentry; 03-03-2014 at 07:02 AM.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Hi Eric
    It's 20 mil vinyl, and you'll want to use HH-66 vinyl cement to do any gluing. You should not heat shrink it - but it is best to skin the boat when the vinyl is good and warm, as if it had been left out in the hot sun for a while. Cold vinyl doesn't stretch at all, and won't conform as well to your curves.
    It should be noted that not all boat shapes will be conducive to skinning with vinyl, transparent or not. If you just can't skin it without getting big wrinkles, then you should likely move to a fabric to skin with.

    Good luck!
    Thanks Dave. I got some polyester fabric from Dyson but thought it might be fun to try the clear vinyl instead. and you don't have to paint it
    "I see!" said the blind man who picked up his hammer and saw.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    More photos, in a somewhat random order, from my ongoing build of Dave Gentry's Shenandoah Whitehall. I'm now at about hour 70.









    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)





    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Tim, you and James' are doing excellent jobs of constructing Dave Gentry's adaptation of a Whitehall. Please post progress reports, like skinning /w nylon as was mentioned, and pics as time allows.
    Steve C.
    blindeyeboats

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    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Well, I got done with my chores earlier than expected on this weekend, so I skinned and coated the one on Sunday afternoon. Used 10.8 oz nylon and Corey's urethane goop. It's stapled to the gunwales (which will be covered with a rub-strake) sewn around the stem and clench-nailed with copper tacks to the transom. It's pretty cold out, so the goo was still just a bit sticky this morning, but honestly, I don't expect to do much more with it until Tim gets here this weekend to finish up the other one, so I'll just let it keep curing. I expect we might well launch 'em together at Cama Beach on the next, next weekend at the bronze-casting workshop March 22.




  35. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Santa Cruz CA.
    Posts
    186

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Back in post #60 of this thread, I rambled on about "plank" bottom rowboats and how they can be adapted to SoF using 1/4"plywood "planks" for a bottom/floorboard. I first used this on the LFH17 build and it works well. Well enough for me to look for other designs for possible adaption.
    Jim Michalak's Oracle come to my mind as I built it a few years ago S&G and still row it frequently. It, along w/ many of Jim's designs has a "plank" bottom. Taking Jim's Oracle plans I've adapted it to a possible SoF build, keeping his below waterline shapes almost, if not exactly, as drawn. (why mess w/ what works?) But have changed above waterline shapes w/ one more chine/stringer, and flared sides at the gunnels. Flaring the sides/gunnels allows for less torturing of gunnel pieces.17 degrees flare in this case. I've made a 1/8" scale drawing and using it have made a 1/8" scale model. Frames in model are at 24" centers, the stem is very long at 48" +, and I got to spend some time getting the stringers to be fair and provide support for the skin. Also drawn up are full sized frames and the stem. Next step is to commit to building, then cutting pieces, assembling it and launching.
    Steve Chambers
    blindeyeboats

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