Page 1 of 4 12 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 108

Thread: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Santa Cruz CA.
    Posts
    186

    Default skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    The recent and ongoing oar and sail thread prompted this one focused on SoF rowboats. I've been interested in and have built four SoF rowboats over the past few years. A Dave Gentry Whitehall, now two Herreshoff/Gardner/Michalak LFH17's and a BC Handliner. A model of another of Jim Michalak's, a Oracle modified to SoF, is in process. One of the LFH17 was on display at the 2012 WBF in Port Townsend, as Yeadon mentioned on the oar/sail tread. I hope to answer SoF rowboat questions here when I can, and ask SoF rowboat questions (and others) here when needed.

    Steve Chambers
    Blindeyeboats

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    coastal BC
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Hi Steve - I've been following your skin on frame boats with interest . So far I've got a number of SOF kayaks under my belt . Considering what rowboat to build SOF of course. My rowing experience is nil . So probably will lean towards a general purpose 14' type , Dave Gentry's Shenandoah Whitehall / Handliner look great . Not sure if i need a longer boat .... the LFH17 style are beautiful but seem larger than needed . What are the advantages of the LFH 17 ?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Santa Cruz CA.
    Posts
    186

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Three Cedars, After I built and rowed Dave's Whitehall, a double ended guideboat type called to me. After lots of searching around I settled on adapting Jim Michalak's LFH17, a plywood version of the Herreshoff/Gardner rowboat. Advantages are, no transom, some frames are doubled, longer and narrower = faster than the Whitehall. Disadvantages = less stable, longer for storage/transportation, and building. I still have Dave's Whitehall and row it frequently. its an excellent SoF boat. You couldn't find a better first SoF to build, plus he sells frame patterns and all. Hope this answers your question.

    BTW. Do you know of Rich Crook who builds boats in Pender Harbor BC?

    Steve C.
    blindeyeboats.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    coastal BC
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Thanks for your response . Dave Gentry's Shenandoah is looking pretty good for my use. He has plans now for a Chamberlain Gunning Dory , impressive ! http://gentrycustomboats.com/Gunning%20Dory.html

    I don't know Rich Crook but i guess this is him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOGDF1fQbLA Do you know what boat is that ?

    Keeping a SOF boat free of grit is always a bit of concern , for me it is second nature to go barefoot in season and taking care to keep footwear clean. In a kayak one can use a sea sock .. in an open boat i've considered using a treated canvas tarp , fitted and removeable to deal with sand and grit . Have you had any issues with grit in your SOF boats ?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,637

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Well, here are a couple more Gentry Shenandoah's in progress. Started 'em last weekend, and we're almost ready for skinning here at the end of the second. This is kind of an experiment: One of them is built to the standard 13'-6" length, and the second one, using the exact same stations, stretched out to 16'. We'll have 'em side by side at the Anacortes Messabout for comparison testing.

    [img]1782154_711514535559262_561431864_n.jpg[/img]

    Can't think of a much quicker or more economical way to build a sexy little rowboat. Skin-on-frame rocks!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Everett, WA
    Posts
    24,502

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Let me guess, you are building the larger, Yeadon the smaller?
    Gerard>
    Everett, WA

    RESIST. FIGHT THE POWER.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,637

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    We're kinda building them together and side-by-side, gang-cutting out parts when possible, but yes, Tim's gonna keep the smaller one and I'm taking the stretched version.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    coastal BC
    Posts
    648

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    James - nice bandsaws . Will be interesting to compare the two boats . Are you going with the same weight of fabric for both ? Looking good

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,637

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    We are using Corey Freedman's 1050 ballistic nylon fabric and urethane coating on both. Come to our Messabout in May, and you can try them out for yourself.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Devonport, Auckland NZ
    Posts
    1,241

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    "Old boats are like teenage girlfriends: there is a certain urgency to their needs & one neglects them at one's peril"


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kilmarnock, Virginia!
    Posts
    1,875

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Here is James' pic, which, for some reason, didn't load correctly for me on his post. His long version looks a lot different than the standard Shenandoah Whitehall.
    And, thanks for all the kind words, everyone.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Santa Cruz CA.
    Posts
    186

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Three Cedars View Post
    Thanks for your response . Dave Gentry's Shenandoah is looking pretty good for my use. He has plans now for a Chamberlain Gunning Dory , impressive ! http://gentrycustomboats.com/Gunning%20Dory.html

    I don't know Rich Crook but i guess this is him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOGDF1fQbLA Do you know what boat is that ?

    Three Cedars, I believe that's Rick's stripper version of Dave Gentry's RUTH SoF boat. I met Rick at 2012 WBF in Port Townsend, where he talked about building the SoF RUTH in preparation of a stripper, his type of boat building.

    Keeping a SOF boat free of grit is always a bit of concern , for me it is second nature to go barefoot in season and taking care to keep footwear clean. In a kayak one can use a sea sock .. in an open boat i've considered using a treated canvas tarp , fitted and removeable to deal with sand and grit . Have you had any issues with grit in your SOF boats ?
    I wear sandals while rowing and "rinse" them one at a time as I board from a shore/beach. Usually only bringing water aboard. Another advantage of a plywood bottom/floorboard is keeping most debris inside the ply's supporting stringers.

    Steve C.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Santa Cruz CA.
    Posts
    186

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    We're kinda building them together and side-by-side, gang-cutting out parts when possible, but yes, Tim's gonna keep the smaller one and I'm taking the stretched version.
    James, Congratulations on your SoF rowboat buildings. Would you please post a pic of how you butted the stringers into the transom or a brief description? That part of construction was for me very difficult w/ the compound angles. Each stringer/transom connection turned out different.

    Steve Chambers
    blindeyeboats.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ballard
    Posts
    7,416

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    A couple photos.





    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Pender Harbour BC Canada
    Posts
    69

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    the boat in the video is a cedar strip version of Dave Gentry's "Ruth", which I built first in skin on frame, and then re-designed for cedar strip. Where in coastal bc are you?

    Rgds

    Rick Crook

    oysterbayboats.ca

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    SF Bay Area- Richmond
    Posts
    15,161

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Here's Steve with one of his Herreshoff SOF boats at Elkhorn Slough last year. Is this the one you sold to Rick?



    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kilmarnock, Virginia!
    Posts
    1,875

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick in Pender Harbour View Post
    the boat in the video is a cedar strip version of Dave Gentry's "Ruth", which I built first in skin on frame, and then re-designed for cedar strip.
    Wait . . . what?
    Just checked your site - very nice, a wooden Ruth!

    OK, back to SOF.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Queenstown, NewZealand
    Posts
    308

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    Here is James' pic, which, for some reason, didn't load correctly for me on his post. His long version looks a lot different than the standard Shenandoah Whitehall.
    And, thanks for all the kind words, everyone.
    I like the look of the longer Shenandoah Whitehall. Sliding seat rowing? Sleep on board capable?

    How are you finding that these boats maintain their designed rocker over time and use? There seems to be a lot of forces tending to make the hull hog, is that proving a problem / how are you counteracting that?

    Ian

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Santa Cruz CA.
    Posts
    186

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Yeadon, Thanks for the pics of your two builds. Interesting lashing of stringers to transom, screwed and lashed. You and James will have two exceptional rowing boats when completed. Any thoughts on down wind sails? Looking forward to progress as made.

    Thorne, Yes the pics you took at Elkhorn Row are the same LFH17 I sold to Rick Thompson. #1 built summer/fall of 2011 and at WBF in 2012. Since the Elkhorn Row I have built another LFH17 w/ slightly different construction details. Thanks for posting the pics.

    Ian, Most hold their shape/rocker over time , but those that do not, the usual suspects are the gunnels. My understanding is: SoF boats hold most of their strength in their gunnels, so they are very important. Robert Morris of "Building Skin-on-Frame Boats" makes this point and says use the most select wood you have for the gunnels. And size them to support the boat. Pre-bending gunnel stock can work when needed, but having flare to get shear w/o compound bends works better. Hope this helps.

    Steve C.
    blindeyeboats



    I

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,637

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by asloth View Post
    Would you please post a pic of how you butted the stringers into the transom or a brief description? That part of construction was for me very difficult w/ the compound angles. Each stringer/transom connection turned out different.
    Sure thing, Steve. I used a lashing to hold the stringer in to the transom, with a bronze ringshank nail through to keep it from sliding around any. You could use a peg or a dowel or a screw just as easily as the nail, I suppose. Because it is into endgrain, I wouldn't rely on just that nail or screw for the tensile strains--that's what the lashings, and eventually the skin stretched over it all, is for. The nail is just to locate and pin it in place.



    A bit of skin boat subtlety here: the skin is going to stretch over from highest point to highest point. If you bring your stringers in a little bit inset from the edge of the transom frame like this, then the chine formed by the stringers will die out and blend into the curve of the transom better--not unlike how the gains in lapstrake planking fair the facets of the planking into a stem or stern with a smoother curve. Use a batten to establish where your high points will be and fair to them.



    The only trick for cutting those compound bevels is just to cut them perfectly and evenly the first time, as you'll get no second chance. I recommend a kesagiri stroke with a japanese katana, if you can manage it, because that would be awesome.



    We laminated a curve into the gunwales and inwales before assembling. Nothing more aggravating than a hogged boat. You definitely gotta watch out for that when building skin-on-frame.
    Last edited by James McMullen; 02-18-2014 at 09:45 PM.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,637

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    I like the look of the longer Shenandoah Whitehall. Sliding seat rowing? Sleep on board capable?
    I suppose you could adapt it to either of these, but I won't be doing either for myself, already having both features available in other boats. I am wanting to keep this particular one as light, simple and carefree as possible.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ballard
    Posts
    7,416

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Kesagiri, loosely translated, obviously means "shimmed to fit."
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kilmarnock, Virginia!
    Posts
    1,875

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    James: The only trick for cutting those compound bevels is just to cut them perfectly and evenly the first time, as you'll get no second chance.
    Actually, you get as many chances as you need . . . but, of course, one's boat gets a little shorter each time. James' joinery is pretty sweet, but I think a wakizashi is more appropriate for indoor work.

    IanHowick:
    I like the look of the longer Shenandoah Whitehall. Sliding seat rowing? Sleep on board capable?
    How are you finding that these boats maintain their designed rocker over time and use?
    You could sleep on either version of this boat, though your COG would be pretty high up at seat level, which would be the most likely spot. Both boats are too short to benefit (speed-wise) from a sliding seat.

    Hogging, or flattening of the gunwales are issues only during construction of the frame, I've noted. Once the boat is finished, it is pretty much as is for the rest of its life.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ballard
    Posts
    7,416

    Default

    Seems like the tensioned, somewhat hardened skin lends a lot structural support to the boat.

    I'm now thinking about building a SOF crabbing skiff. Maybe the 14 or 16 foot semi-dory from the Dory Book.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    13,016

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    Actually, you get as many chances as you need . . . but, of course, one's boat gets a little shorter each time. James' joinery is pretty sweet, but I think a wakizashi is more appropriate for indoor work..
    Our jigging method for making the compound cuts on the stringers worked well and we're making a few changes to the jig itself. It worked like a charm on the 6 boats that we've used them on. The right cut, made by inexperienced students the first time around.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  26. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Santa Cruz CA.
    Posts
    186

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Yeadon, James and all. Now I know lots more about stringer/wale to transom connections. Thanks for the pics and descriptions. On my next transomed SoF, I might try fitting the stringers/wales to transom first then work forward. In past I've begun in middle and worked towards both ends, ending in fitting nightmares at the transom.

    Steve C.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ballard
    Posts
    7,416

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I've never built a SOF before, so I have no idea if this is the best way of doing it. I'm curious to go out and try the boat in person. Honestly, I sort of want to drop the boat in and row straight for Hell's Half Acre, which is the large tidal rip just off Washington Park where the Guemes and Bellingham channels meet up in a very peppy, haystacky mess.

    If she performs well out there, and seems plenty tough, then I'm happy. I can't imagine the SOF Whitehall will enjoy it as much as my traditionally built cedar lapstrake peapod, but it'll be fun to compare.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lynden, Wa
    Posts
    3,094

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    Hogging, or flattening of the gunwales are issues only during construction of the frame, I've noted. Once the boat is finished, it is pretty much as is for the rest of its life.
    How would these boats tolerate being heaved up on a car roof on a regular basis? I have often contemplated a SOF row boat for exercise rowing to get away from either leaving a boat at the water or needing a trailer.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Firth of Forth, Scotland
    Posts
    538

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    I'm still interested in building the SOF LFH17. I discussed with Alec Jordan of Jordan Boats whether he'd be willing to make up a kit of floor and frames cut with his CNC set up. But unfortunately he's got too much other work on at the moment to take on kit development. He did say that if I produced a CNC cutting file, he'd be happy to cut it.

    I've got no idea how I'd go about producing such a file, and suspect I'd be quicker to just cut the frames by hand, though I find it a tedious job. Does this seem plausible? Does anyone else have cutting files, or interested in producing them and sharing them? (I'm aware of the IP issues and the need to buy the plans and license from Jim Michalak).
    Osbert
    -
    Scratch, a Welsford Walkabout, and Selkie, a Clint Chase Drake 17 rowboat

    http://forthsailoar.osbert.org

  30. #30
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ballard
    Posts
    7,416

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Here are a few more photos. We've now worked on the Whitehalls for four days. These photos are from days 1 and 2. (The above photos are from days 3 and 4.) Last weekend we worked a pair of 13 hour days, which I found very satisfying. I'd say that in all, we have 42-45 hours into each boat.

    This is the first Dave Gentry designed boat that I've built. His directions are solid, and the boat has gone together in a fairly straightforward manner. I've also found lashing to be my favorite new skill. It's very cathartic, and I'm impressed by just how well it works in comparison to glue and fasteners.

    James is a lot quicker than I am as a boatbuilder. It's pretty impressive. I'd say he's generally at least a few steps of ahead of me (and gaining) at any one point. For instance, while I was still working on lashing stringers, he was wrestling with his transom. But then, James does this sort of thing for a living while I sit at a desk and do desk-bound corporate things. I should note that he types with two fingers and smells of elderberries.

    Now then, these photos are somewhat random in order, but I'm okay with that. I hope you are too.









    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ballard
    Posts
    7,416

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)









    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ballard
    Posts
    7,416

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)





    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    13,016

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Oh no! Did James' worm drive saw get out of control on the anti-fatigue mats?

    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  34. #34
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ballard
    Posts
    7,416

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    There are also about a half dozen wooden sawhorses out back of James' shop that have been cut in half, too. He's a little loose with the worm drive, it appears.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    13,016

    Default Re: skin-on-frame ROWBOATS- design(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    There are also about a half dozen wooden sawhorses out back of James' shop that have been cut in half, too. He's a little loose with the worm drive, it appears.
    Either that or he hasn't discovered the little depth of cut knob on the machine.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •