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Thread: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    We have a production boat in the UK I think the numbers, shape and design are worth close study. Called the K1 by Paul Handley.

    It's hull shape isn't so dissimilar to Phoenix. She's actually narrower. Carries 10 Sqm sail. A light hull and rig allows an all up weight of 125kg to include a 60kg lifting ballast bulb.

    The boat has relatively round sections but can plane, it self rights and self drains. All with a narrow width of 4ft 3" and fairly semi circular sections.

    By building a light hull and rig, total weight is still ballpark.

    Swapping form stability for keel stability allows a narrower hull to carry sail, which would give the rowing advantages under oar.

    Special care was given to healed waterlines as it doesn't expect to sail flat upwind.

    Look beyond rig choice, the keel bulb would be awkward if beaching without integrating it into a keel or recess, but it shows numbers that work to add self draining, self righting and planing if we wished on a 10 Sqm/ 125kg narrow boat using ballast not conflicting form stability to carry sail. Irrespective of one's view on self righting it presents an alternative solution to sail carrying on a narrow boat.

    www.rondarboats.com/us/wp-content/uploads/.../K1-design-statement-.pdf

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 02-10-2014 at 06:50 PM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    There are many many possible solutions to the design problem for a boat of this genre, each one fitting a particular set of circumstances. For example even the difference in water temperatures between where Ross lives and where Brian lives can make for a different approach, the strong prevailing winds where I live will need a different approach to a boat that might be ideal for an area with very light winds, an exposed coast with prevailing onshore winds will be different from a sheltered shoal draft environment.
    John Welsford
    I don't think John's point can be overstated.

    The cold waters, strong currents, frequent calms, occasional high winds and gnarly sea states we experience here in the Salish Sea and on the west coast of Vancouver Island I suspect call for different solutions than elsewhere. It may even speak to the smaller/larger question posed by Tom in his original post. I have an Alaska and certainly wouldn't want anything smaller for the kind of cruising I do, which is mostly solo is the aforesaid conditions. While a bigger boat might be a little more work to row in the calms, I've been more than grateful for Alaska's size in the gnarly stuff and often wished it were bigger. Having the ability to sleep aboard when there is no beach handy, a common occurrence for us, is also useful.

    So, to re-cap, I believe there is no single answer to Tom's question. For our neck of the sea and the kind of cruising I do, I think larger rather smaller, within the range of sail and oar boats, is the answer.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    I agree with Alex, and John. To each cat his own rat, right?

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    This is one of those lucky threads where everyone has some worthwhile knowledge or pertinent question. Hail!

    One particular fork in the decision tree seems to be whether your chosen waters are more suited to sleeping at anchor, onboard, or to beaching and pulling the boat above the tide line, then camping ashore. In the former case, a bit of extra weight is no great issue, nor are added beam and length. In the latter, it can mean a struggle, night and morning.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    When I managed to capsize my Caledonia Yawl here in Florida during the spring of last year, it was a wonderful although expensive education. I learned that mainsheets can jam and cause a capsize especially if they are installed improperly. But what was most significant was how lucky we were. The water wasn't that cold, my crew was a couple of strong young bucks who didn't panic, the wind was really blowing hard but moving everything that floated to the nearby shore including us and the boat and although we lost some expensive items that weren't tied in properly, nobody got hurt.

    But to this day by far the most amazing thing about the capsize was the way the boat got pulled over in slow motion after it had almost come to a full stop. It was about as graceful as a feeding swan reaching down underwater for a choice morsel. With the boat at almost a full stop there was no longer any steerage. The jammed rig just powered the boat over and water (and lots of it) just started coming over the rail.

    It will be interesting to compare that to the planned capsize of my SCAMP this summer. Not that SCAMP is a real sail and oar boat by most definitions, she is a boat that can be rowed effectively in a pinch (with a good set of oars) and she's a surprisingly good sailor. It will be interesting, especially for my modified SCAMP, to see how well she handles the planned rude dip in the water compared to how difficult it was to recover a completely flooded Caledonia Yawl with minimal flotation and no bailing bucket! My CY was never in danger of being lost because the wind just blew us right to the shore of the Matanzas River but I'm looking forward to a having a much easier time of it with SCAMP's smaller size, lighter weight, and much more flotation. Of course, it will also be nice having lots of support staff around, warmer water, and especially knowing that it's going to happen before it actually does. I'll never forget the shock of standing in my CY, Xena, and watching her rig slowly and powerfully pull her down into deep water without a darn thing I could do about it.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 02-11-2014 at 08:18 AM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    Very simple and ingenious. For two persons, building the sliding seats with a second layer, hinged along the outside edge, would provide a full-width fold-out sleeping platform, for which I'd use plywood rather than slats. Judging by eye, with the two platforms pushed to the outside, there'd be a narrow footwell in the centre. It would increase the weight, but not by a great amount.
    My brother did something very similar with his boat, and it was comfortable (enough) sleeping both of us (at 6' 2"+) aboard, with one on each side of the centerboard case. Not a lot of room to move around and get at gear, but the sleeping positions were fine.

    Tom
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  7. #42
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I'm intrigued by the apparent contradiction between this:

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    I have cruised in a fairly full bodied 13 footer and a 16 footer. Between the two for single handing I actually prefered the smaller boat I did not have to work as hard, and I do not think there was an appreciable difference in the overall cruising speed. The smaller boat was definitely easier to handle in rougher water.
    and this:

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    While a bigger boat might be a little more work to row in the calms, I've been more than grateful for Alaska's size in the gnarly stuff and often wished it were bigger.

    Can anyone shed some light on what looks like opposite conclusions from similar experiences here?

    Or does "easier to handle in rougher water" in the first post refer specifically to rowing, whereas Alex is talking about sailing in the gnarly stuff?

    It seems fairly simple to understand how increased freeboard would lead to increased security, but other aspects of size (especially length) don't seem to relate as directly to how capable a boat is. For example, big steep waves are (to me) the scariest part of all this small boat cruising stuff, and it seems like any wave that would give a Walkabout or Phoenix III a hard time would also challenge a Sooty Tern or something similar.

    Can anyone share any thoughts or explanations about that?

    Tom
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    For my part, I was mostly rowing. The smaller boat, while perfectly good for tracking straight, was easily maneuvered under oars. When perched on a wave, or in the trough, I could very easily turn the boat to accommodate the needs of the moment.....it became natural and instinctive. There was ample buoyancy for me and my kit. I was traveling in fresh water and did not have to carry much fresh water.
    The longer rowing boat was a relatively flat floor lake rowing boat with almost no rocker. She carried a much bigger load. Maneuvering required effort compared with the other boat. She was a good sea boat, and easily weathered a Salish Sea gale, albeit a controlled run before the wind, till I could turn and row hard to get into the Lee of Bellenas Island and set up camp.
    I never felt I was in a situation I was not able to handle with either boat. I was rowing almost exclusively, and really only experimented with sailing these boats.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I'm intrigued by the apparent contradiction between this:



    and this:


    Can anyone shed some light on what looks like opposite conclusions from similar experiences here?

    Or does "easier to handle in rougher water" in the first post refer specifically to rowing, whereas Alex is talking about sailing in the gnarly stuff?

    It seems fairly simple to understand how increased freeboard would lead to increased security, but other aspects of size (especially length) don't seem to relate as directly to how capable a boat is. For example, big steep waves are (to me) the scariest part of all this small boat cruising stuff, and it seems like any wave that would give a Walkabout or Phoenix III a hard time would also challenge a Sooty Tern or something similar.

    Can anyone share any thoughts or explanations about that?

    Tom
    Increasing length does increase stability. If you have a given beam, but one boat that has twice the waterline length it will have roughly twice the resistance to tipping. Kind of like if you bolted two boats end to end it would take double the moment to heel them a given amount because the stability is doubled. It is much more complicated than that, but increasing length certainly has an effect on stability side to side. It also allows enough beam to inspire confidence while allowing the waterlines to remain smooth.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    HV 16 Bandwagon is 15'9" LOA x 4 1/2'. I have a fair amount of confidence and experience in a wide variety of PNW ('Salish Sea') conditions. The transom stern gives me enough volume to sleep aboard without resorting to extraordinary measures. I like sleeping board. Habitability is adequate. That really is a word, I checked. Love the adventures I've had with the boat, plenty more out there. Handy enough off the trailer for a daysail or row. From a solo perspective, I think the 18 will have greater habitability, and cover more ground under sail, particularly against adverse conditions. Obviously greater load carrying capacity which could include passengers. I suspect going from 16 to 18 rowing solo is a wash. I refer to others experience - the bigger boat requires a different pace of exertion while loosing no boat speed. In my cruising grounds sandbars and mudflats are not a great concern. There is almost always an opportunity to drop the hook. Plank on frame Bandwagon weighs 250 lbs empty. Glued lap/less furniture, lower weight.

    There are strategies for hauling something that heavy or a little heavier up the beach, but that is not really my first concern. I would still build an 18 with an eye towards minimizing weight. To balance tracking and maneuverability I like some drag and rocker to the underwater profile.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    ... From a solo perspective, I think the 18 will have greater habitability, and cover more ground under sail, particularly against adverse conditions. Obviously greater load carrying capacity which could include passengers. I suspect going from 16 to 18 rowing solo is a wash. I refer to others experience - the bigger boat requires a different pace of exertion while loosing no boat speed. ...

    Soooo.......


    when can we expect to see some plans?
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    I'm only 90% happy with the lines developed recently. Back to the drawing board. Close. A fella can bat around numbers all day and night, but in the end it's got to be . . . just so, eye sweet.

    Or utterly and uncompromisingly utilitarian.

    Thanks for asking Ben. I might want to do a model before releasing something.

    ---------

    The baseline of my 'habitability' scale would be a sea kayak. Zero relative to a sail and oar boat, but a supreme machine for traveling from campsite to campsite and totally withdrawing, transportation and all, to the embrace of land.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Thanks, everyone, for your responses. I'm intrigued by the apparent contradiction between this:



    and this:


    Can anyone shed some light on what looks like opposite conclusions from similar experiences here?

    Or does "easier to handle in rougher water" in the first post refer specifically to rowing, whereas Alex is talking about sailing in the gnarly stuff?

    It seems fairly simple to understand how increased freeboard would lead to increased security, but other aspects of size (especially length) don't seem to relate as directly to how capable a boat is. For example, big steep waves are (to me) the scariest part of all this small boat cruising stuff, and it seems like any wave that would give a Walkabout or Phoenix III a hard time would also challenge a Sooty Tern or something similar.

    Can anyone share any thoughts or explanations about that?

    Tom
    Tom,

    My starting assumption is that rowing is pretty much always for the calms and if it is rough it is because it is windy and therefore I will be sailing
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  14. #49

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    This thread got me thinking about a question I've never settled in my own brain completely:

    But I've also been really impressed with Ross Lillistone's Phoenix III for this kind of cruising. It's a shorter boat, but gets a little extra room for the length by having a transom. My best guess is my brother's Phoenix III weighs under 100 kg empty. Rowing steadily in flat water, it was fairly easy to keep ahead of a Hobie tri powered by Mirage drive--it may not be a speedster but it sure moves easily under oars.

    Tom

    I'm glad I came across this thread. Yesterday I was taking a good at Ross Lillistone's plans for the first time. I am really taken with his Phoenix III. It is a great looking boat that appears to be a fairly simple and inexpensive build. I was so impressed that I could not understand why I hadn't heard more about Mr. Lillistone and his designs. I won't be building a Phoenix III as I need something that will carry more beer, but it is still a great design. I would recommend this boat to a first time builder who wants to check out beach cruising without having to spend a great deal of time and money to get started. I also found an explanation and illustration of an easy way to do scarfing that even I could understand. No need for embarrassing butt blocks. That alone should secure a place in Heaven for RL. I am interested in seeing more of his work as he continues to practice his craft.

    Thank you for a great thread. - John

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Landlockedvoyager View Post
    I also found an explanation and illustration of an easy way to do scarfing that even I could understand. No need for embarrassing butt blocks. That alone should secure a place in Heaven for RL. I am interested in seeing more of his work as he continues to practice his craft.
    I agree. I've found that Ross Lillistone's website and blog and youtube videos and even his plans are really good at explaining how to do things without going into an overwhelming amount of detail--I've picked up lots of building tricks and techniques from him that I'm putting to good use on my Alaska.

    Tom
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    I think the important thing is to have a boat you can right yourself be it 13ft or 18ft. I would put self rescue at the top of the list, and usually,the smaller boat will be easier to right solo, given the same layout as the larger craft.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by AJZimm View Post
    Tom,

    My starting assumption is that rowing is pretty much always for the calms and if it is rough it is because it is windy and therefore I will be sailing
    There are days when the rig needs to be doused and you are working the boat using oars. Not many open boats will stand to windward in F6. It isn't just the wind, its the spray coming aboard. One of the critical components in open boats is the ease of getting the rig including mast up and down. Even in a calm with an old sea, having the mast up can really mess up your rowing, and if there is a zephyr that would propel you at a knot and you want to get somewhere you will have the mast down and oars out.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    There are days when the rig needs to be doused and you are working the boat using oars. Not many open boats will stand to windward in F6. It isn't just the wind, its the spray coming aboard. One of the critical components in open boats is the ease of getting the rig including mast up and down. Even in a calm with an old sea, having the mast up can really mess up your rowing, and if there is a zephyr that would propel you at a knot and you want to get somewhere you will have the mast down and oars out.
    Of course. That was my starting assumption and a generalization. There are always exceptions.
    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    There are days when the rig needs to be doused and you are working the boat using oars. Not many open boats will stand to windward in F6. It isn't just the wind, its the spray coming aboard. One of the critical components in open boats is the ease of getting the rig including mast up and down. Even in a calm with an old sea, having the mast up can really mess up your rowing, and if there is a zephyr that would propel you at a knot and you want to get somewhere you will have the mast down and oars out.
    Not too may boats will work to windward under oars in F6 either, rig struck or not, at least not in the range of boat and crew sizes under discussion.

    Allan
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    You can row to windward in force 6 but not too far.......here....smaller weight with some length... not 8 feet...is better. boats under 10 feet are dismal in those conditions and larger boats catch too much wind. My 13 footer was as good as I have experienced in these conditions. I'd prefer to have a boat with better buoyancy flooded, more able to self-rescue in the event of an accident.
    I have to say I have little cruising experience in a real rowing/ sailing boat. My sailing rigs were add on to old rowing boats and really only useful for reaching and running.
    Building a new boat designed from the start for both jobs would encourage me to look larger. For a straight rowing beach cruiser, I'd be thinking 14 odd feet.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    The following photo gives some idea about the difference between "length" and "size". It is a screen shot from a video, but is of high enough resolution to make the point.

    The camera boat in the foreground is Paul Hernes' Phoenix III (the very first one built, as Paul was the person for who the design was drawn) and in the near background you can see Rick Sutton's John Welsford Navigator. Phoenix III is longer than Navigator by a few inches, but while it takes only one person to run Phoenix III up a beach, Navigator is a totally different kettle of fish. It is simple for one person to right Phoenix III after a capsize, but although I have not had the opportunity to try the same in a Navigator, I suspect that she would be a handful. As for rowing, give me the slim Phoenix III any day of the week.

    Both of these designs are well proven, and appear to deliver satisfaction to owners all over the place. However, even though they would both be called "15 footers", they are vastly different in their character. Neither one is "better" than the other, but they are certainly different. Maybe we shouldn't be talking about 15ft Vs 18ft boats in this discussion.....?

    Last edited by Ross Lillistone; 02-13-2014 at 07:25 AM.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Binnacle Bat View Post
    Not too may boats will work to windward under oars in F6 either, rig struck or not, at least not in the range of boat and crew sizes under discussion.

    Allan
    Some place on the forum is the note I wrote from an interesting winter adventure last year, pulling up into Camden Harbor into a really stiff wind. Flat sea but enough wind to stop people in their tracks. (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ats&highlight=) The point is that with rig up you'd have no chance, would have ended up on a ride across Penobscot Bay. With rig down and pulling easy, working the waves with a low windage hull, you can hold your own, maybe wiggle a little. At least that's what I've found with the ducker and the dory and other such craft. You'll want them to be short enough so a touch of the oars can control their direction. Even if you had the power to push it you'd need to work around the crests to keep the spray down.
    Last edited by Ben Fuller; 02-13-2014 at 08:24 AM. Reason: more info
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Some place on the forum is the note I wrote from an interesting winter adventure last year, pulling up into Camden Harbor into a really stiff wind. Flat sea but enough wind to stop people in their tracks. (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ats&highlight=) The point is that with rig up you'd have no chance, would have ended up on a ride across Penobscot Bay. With rig down and pulling easy, working the waves with a low windage hull, you can hold your own, maybe wiggle a little. At least that's what I've found with the ducker and the dory and other such craft. You'll want them to be short enough so a touch of the oars can control their direction. Even if you had the power to push it you'd need to work around the crests to keep the spray down.
    Lacking experience with tides and coastal waters, I do have quite a bit with rowing against the wind. On the rivers I've been running for 25 years or so, strong upstream winds are frequent. On some trips, I've rowed against the wind for several long days in a row. Some factors that make a difference include windage in general, but particularly high windage at the bow, resulting from greater curve to the sheer and also more bottom rocker (which combined can allow a gust to shove the boat across the wind). This is most likely to happen as the boat crests a wave. Any sort of keel helps tracking while a flatter bottom makes it harder to hold into the wind.

    It helps a great deal if you can feather the oars when they come out of the wateró I learned to row with a wrist roll that not only feathers the oars but seems to be easier on my joints. If you want to see the difference feathering makes, simply feather one oar and keep the other blade flat to the wind, which will spin you rather quickly. Old-timey pinned locks and square-shafted oars make feathering impossible. This can be worked around by having narrower blades on the oars (although it gives less forward push).

    Since my favorite rivers run through deep canyons, I got quite good at reading the terrain and the water surface to gauge wind strength, and avoiding the worst spots, finding wind-eddies near the walls, using riverside trees as windbreaks, etc. The same tactics can be used on sheltered waters when wind is a problem.

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    On the rivers I've been running for 25 years or so, strong upstream winds are frequent. On some trips, I've rowed against the wind for several long days in a row.
    Yes, on my one trip rowing through Grand Canyon NP in March, I was surprised by those upstream winds (though in hindsight, with a narrow canyon, it's not that surprising, is it?)

    I could really tell the difference between my extreme-windage 18' baggage raft, and the low-windage cataract boat/dory replicas. And as you say, feathering was a must. It was the only time I've bothered with it at all, but if I hadn't, I think I'd still be parked in the middle of a canyon somewhere, rowing in place.

    By the end of the 24-day trip, I got fairly competent at working the eddies and windbreaks to make progress upwind.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Lillistone View Post
    Both of these designs are well proven, and appear to deliver satisfaction to owners all over the place. However, even though they would both be called "15 footers", they are vastly different in their character. Neither one is "better" than the other, but they are certainly different. Maybe we shouldn't be talking about 15ft Vs 18ft boats in this discussion.....?
    I'd certainly rank Navigator in the "big" category by volume, weight, and beam. Still a great boat, I bet. It certainly shows you don't have to compare different lengths to see different sizes.

    But I kind of like comparing the 15-footers to 18-footers. I'll like it even more when I launch my 18-footer and can sail alongside my brother in his Phoenix III.

    To my eye, Alaska and PIII seem to have the same usable interior space/volume, so they're close to the same "size" even though one is three feet longer. It'll be interesting to observe the advantages and disadvantages of each on some longer cruises.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    [QUOTE=WI-Tom;4064322]Yes, on my one trip rowing through Grand Canyon NP in March, I was surprised by those upstream winds (though in hindsight, with a narrow canyon, it's not that surprising, is it?)
    [QUOTE]

    We had a huge cat, 30" tubes, that was blown upstream despite a fast current and a strong rower. We chased him with small boats and towed him down to the lunch stop.

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    There are days when the rig needs to be doused and you are working the boat using oars. Not many open boats will stand to windward in F6. It isn't just the wind, its the spray coming aboard. One of the critical components in open boats is the ease of getting the rig including mast up and down. Even in a calm with an old sea, having the mast up can really mess up your rowing, and if there is a zephyr that would propel you at a knot and you want to get somewhere you will have the mast down and oars out.
    I think you can sail to windward in far stronger winds and rougher seas than you can row to windward, although this does of course depend on the type of boat.

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Lillistone View Post
    The following photo gives some idea about the difference between "length" and "size". It is a screen shot from a video, but is of high enough resolution to make the point.

    The camera boat in the foreground is Paul Hernes' Phoenix III (the very first one built, as Paul was the person for who the design was drawn) and in the near background you can see Rick Sutton's John Welsford Navigator. Phoenix III is longer than Navigator by a few inches, but while it takes only one person to run Phoenix III up a beach, Navigator is a totally different kettle of fish. It is simple for one person to right Phoenix III after a capsize, but although I have not had the opportunity to try the same in a Navigator, I suspect that she would be a handful. As for rowing, give me the slim Phoenix III any day of the week.

    Both of these designs are well proven, and appear to deliver satisfaction to owners all over the place. However, even though they would both be called "15 footers", they are vastly different in their character. Neither one is "better" than the other, but they are certainly different. Maybe we shouldn't be talking about 15ft Vs 18ft boats in this discussion.....?


    Its interesting in to note that one sailor is sitting on the rail while the other is inside.

    Im not putting one over the other, it's just another indicator of what "size" gets you.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Its interesting in to note that one sailor is sitting on the rail while the other is inside.

    Im not putting one over the other, it's just another indicator of what "size" gets you.
    Yeah, but the Phoenix III looks like it's sailing quite a bit flatter, doesn't it? He may be choosing the side deck for extra performance rather than out of necessity.

    I haven't been in a situation where I felt I needed to be on the side deck of the PIII for safety, and I don't think my brother has either. And it has seen some wind--granted, that's with the 76 sq ft balance lug rather than the 104 sq ft spritsail sloop (I think) in Ross's photo.

    Also, the side deck is pretty comfortable--it's nice to have varied seating options to stretch out and move around a bit.

    I suspect that reefing for conditions allows PIII sailors to sit inside the boat if they choose. It'd be interesting to hear from other PIII sailors, or from Ross again on this.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by John Perry View Post
    I think you can sail to windward in far stronger winds and rougher seas than you can row to windward, although this does of course depend on the type of boat.
    Maybe, if you're holding a close reach and don't need to tack. But waves and high winds combined can make tacking difficult or even impossible, and it's a heck of a lot colder and wetter than rowing, too.

    There might be occasions where oars are the better choice for windward work. If it gets that bad, though, I usually decide that the best choice is to hang out on the beach for a while if I can--or pick a new route.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Yeah, but the Phoenix III looks like it's sailing quite a bit flatter, doesn't it? He may be choosing the side deck for extra performance rather than out of necessity.

    I haven't been in a situation where I felt I needed to be on the side deck of the PIII for safety, and I don't think my brother has either. And it has seen some wind--granted, that's with the 76 sq ft balance lug rather than the 104 sq ft spritsail sloop (I think) in Ross's photo.

    Also, the side deck is pretty comfortable--it's nice to have varied seating options to stretch out and move around a bit.

    I suspect that reefing for conditions allows PIII sailors to sit inside the boat if they choose. It'd be interesting to hear from other PIII sailors, or from Ross again on this.

    Tom


    Well, I have posted the full video on youtube and you can see what was going on there. Paul was using a Joel White Poohduck Skiff rig, which is much smaller in sail area than the standard 104 sq ft on Phoenix III. However, he was doing very well against the Navigator until Rick Sutton tried to squeeze him on a channel beacon!



    I've also put up a short post on my blog at http://rosslillistonewoodenboat.blog...oenix-iii.html

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    That the Navigator, is as fast as a very good Sail and Oar boat even in light-medium air while still eating his sandwiches, is very impressive...

    That Phoenix is as fast as a Navigator but can also row is also very impressive...

    Phoenix gets back what is lost in sail carrying ability with lower wavemaking resistance and wetted area. Navigator gets back what is lost in wetted area and wavemaking resistance with greater sail carrying ability.

    It's the confluence of ratio's, weights, shapes and areas over a varied windrange that makes boat design so interesting.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 02-14-2014 at 10:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Concur with the above.

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    I'm finishing up a new sail-and-oar dinghy and gave a lot of thought to many of the design factors discussed here especially regarding size. The boat is intended to be an eventual replacement for my Goat Island Skiff which doesn't track well rowing over distance and struggles to beat into a choppy sea. The key in designing the Calendar Islands Yawl was foremost keeping it very light for rowing, having the transom just out of the water, but not so much that when sailing off the wind there's good bearing aft and the boat will plane with the right person at the helm. Another major factor was the length oar I wanted to use, but more importantly stow. Because I won't be rowing it as much as I like (love rowing!), I had to determine how long an oar I really wanted to stow and 10' was my absolute max. So the beam of the boat was designed with this in mind (about 5'2"). Freeboard is also a factor for oar length but very much so for stability and reserve capacity. I thought either go low freeboard with decking, or slightly higher freeboard and no decking which I think will make a lighter boat, so I went that way. Most people who build this will likely sail more than not, so the helm seats you see or for those folks to be comfortable. So this is a big dinghy and ought to be a great sail and oar boat. I'm keeping a log of the design on my blog

    http://clintchaseboatbuilder.blogspot.com/
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

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    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Again both Navigator and Phoenix are both excellent boats.

    The first minute of this video is interesting.





    In this light to medium air battle, at this particular moment in time, in these conditions Sail Area to Displacement ratio is triumphant.

    The smaller reefed lug sail tested on the Phoenix at the time isn't being compensated enough by her lower wetted area, wave making resistance and likely slightly lower displacement.

    The bigger sails hoisted on the Navigator are more than compensating for its greater wetted area and wavemaking resistance.

    Under sail, at low Froude number speeds how much sail you can hoist is as if not more important, than how slippery the hull is. This is because wavemaking resistance only gains momentum as the boat does.

    Had the Phoenix hoisted equivalent sail area, she would have gone faster, as sail area can be more easily held in light air even on a less form stable hull. Alternatively devoid of wind, under fixed and very low and identical oar power, she would also be expected to go faster because she has a lower resistance hull at low speeds.

    It shows above the speed at which they are faster under oar and below the wind speed that requires reefing due to lower stability, to use the lower Sail and Oar resistance hull to advantage to avoid getting smoked, Sail and Oar boats must hoist then sit and and hold at least equivalent sail area.


    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 02-14-2014 at 01:51 PM.

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