Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 56
Results 176 to 202 of 202

Thread: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

  1. #176
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,992

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Fixed rudder under the boat??

    Apparently this is all the rage in International Sailing Canoe racing, according to Phil Morrison who just designed a new one

    "...the rudder located under the hull was more efficient than a transom hung rudder due to less cavitation, smaller blade and smaller turning circle".

    http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=97esigns-morrison-design-overview&catid=65:ic-design&Itemid=70

    Don't know how he makes it work for beaching etc though. Guess it slots in casette style.



    Rudder cassettes would also be a compromise solution for those that don't like push pull tillers on yawl boats.

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 03-05-2014 at 12:41 PM.

  2. #177
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,323

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    When launching an IC, you position the DB in the trunk and the cassette mounted rudder in the rudder trunk. Give her a shove jump on the stern, shove the rudder down, then shove the db down assuming that you have shoved hard enough. Reverse the procedure landing. Dry shod, not.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  3. #178
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    8,817

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Interesting that some people take the less drag and a smaller turning circle so serious and give up on the beachabilty.....to each their own i guess, certainly a cracking wee boat though.

  4. #179
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,323

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Development classes are about doing whatever is the fastest, a pretty ruthless efficiency laboratory. IC's had fat head sails maybe 10 years before the now fashion. We had carbon masts back in 81. Getting wet launching is irrelevant anyway as you are going to be wet sailing.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  5. #180
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Location
    Sultan, WA
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    The disadvantage of a smaller boat is, its a smaller boat!

  6. #181
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,323

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Matt,

    Pleased that you have revived this thread. There is a lot of useful info in it. But it is 4 years old, ending in a discussion of rudder and daggerboard/ centerboard design. Do you have any specific questions?
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  7. #182
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Blacksburg, VA
    Posts
    399

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Most people who had done extensive cruising (I'm not one of them) say that stowage for supplies is the major problem with small boats. Maybe you should take an analytical approach to this. Make a list of everything you'll need to bring with you, including both perishables (food and drink) and equipment (like clothes and a sleeping bag). Figure out the total weight and volume. See how it fits into the designs you are contemplating.

    Eric Hiscock's "Cruising Under Sail" has some good guidelines for required supplies.

    You don't say whether you'll be in fresh or salt water. If in fresh, bringing a campers pumped water purifier could reduce your need to carry water.
    I will beg you for advice, your reply will be concise, and I will listen very nicely and then go out and do exactly what I want! (Apologies to Lerner and Lowe.)

  8. #183
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    447

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Kayak people have also lots of information and they are longer around then our kind. We can use their kno wledge.

  9. #184
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    447

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Best source is Roger Barnes book, The Dinghy Cruising Companion, or Catalan Castaway from Ben Crawshaw I think .
    Last edited by FF; 03-01-2018 at 05:21 AM.

  10. #185
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,206

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by alkorn View Post
    Most people who had done extensive cruising (I'm not one of them) say that stowage for supplies is the major problem with small boats. Maybe you should take an analytical approach to this. Make a list of everything you'll need to bring with you, including both perishables (food and drink) and equipment (like clothes and a sleeping bag). Figure out the total weight and volume. See how it fits into the designs you are contemplating.
    I've had no problems sailing the Great Lakes for up to a month at a time on the Great Lakes with no resupply stops in a Phoenix III (one of the "small" sail-and-oar designs this thread began with). There is really a LOT of room aboard even the smaller boats if you are used to backpacking or kayaking. Fresh water cruising, of course, so no need to carry water (just a small filter), which helps a lot. But I've done up to a week at a time with two people on salt water as well, carrying a gallon/person per day.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  11. #186
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Ballard
    Posts
    7,854

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    It's pretty much the same amount of gear for either a night out or a month out. A few more pairs of socks and baselayers. Food takes up a bit more room, but a lot of it can be dehydrated and vacuum-sealed ... and suddenly food storage isn't such a big deal anymore. It's the water situation that matters most.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  12. #187
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Rockford, IL
    Posts
    9,153

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    I should think you'd want "bullet proof" boats; in other words, fiberglass hulls, aluminum spars, aluminum & plastic oars.

  13. #188
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,164

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    We're all very aware of what excellent ballast water makes. I was carrying 60 gallons on the floor of Udforske most of the summer. In a Sail and or Oar boat it's just nice to know that if you get stuck out, or blown off shore for a week or two you've plenty of fresh water readily available.

    the trick is having somewhere secure to stash the jugs where they will not shift or get stepped on, a low sleeping platform can be a great way to lock in gallon jugs. and a deck or seating/ full lenght risers that you can walk across will keep the jugs from being crushed in the course of sailing.

    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 03-21-2018 at 09:07 PM.

  14. #189
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,164

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    I should think you'd want "bullet proof" boats; in other words, fiberglass hulls, aluminum spars, aluminum & plastic oars.
    I'd put my 1 3/4 inch thick pine bottom up against any "bullet proof" production glass boat out there

  15. #190
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    On the river, Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    4,409

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    Best source is Roger Barnes book, The Dinghy Cruising Companion, or Catalan Castaway from Ben Crawshaw I think .
    Good book, some of us have different ideas about some things, but Rogers ideas work, he's been there and done that and is willing to share.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  16. #191
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    On the river, Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    4,409

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    I'm working up to a seriously long coastal passage in a "sail and oar" boat, one which will involve up to three days at sea on some legs. I'm rowing for an hour three days a week to work on fitness, and am making steady progress on the build of a boat I've drawn specifically for this voyage.
    "Long Steps" ( I have "Walkabout" and "Tread Lightly" in my plans range) Is just over 6 metres long, ( 19 ft 7inches) water ballasted, offset 'board, SCAMP type cuddy, self draining cockpit, balanced lug main with triangular mizzen. I've had comment about the boat being "too big to row any distance" but bear in mind that the typical single handed cross ocean rowing boat is around 24 ft, and somewhat heavier than Long Steps. She's narrow on the waterline, a very slippery shape and gets her sail carrying stability from very flared sides just above the static waterline.

    I think that the optimum length for a "normal" sail and oar boat is around 17 ft, at that length there is space, load carrying ability, and in a reasonably slick hull thats where the crossover between resistance from wetted area crosses over with wave making resistance. I've gone longer with this boat as the rowing is to be secondary to the sailing, and I wanted speed under sail across a wide range of conditions.
    There is too, the "single finger salute" element in that many of our harbour authorities require a lifejacket to be worn at all times in boats under 6 metres long, and I dont feel like wearing what amounts to a bulky insulated vest when rowing my little ship into a marina where I'm not allowed to sail, in hot weather ( dont get me started on those inflatable things) and I'm not interested in being earwigged by an overly zealous official.

    Progress on Long Steps "here". If you scroll back a ways there are drawings. http://jwboatdesigns.blogspot.co.nz/

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  17. #192
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dorset, UK
    Posts
    768

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats



    John it's hard to see the numbers on the drawing. Could you clarify Long Steps final dimensions in ft and inches, weight in kilos, sail area in sq ft for us:-

    LOA
    LWL
    Waterline beam
    Oarlock beam
    Gunwale beam
    Freeboard above the waterline
    Estimated final (empty of stuff but with rig etc) boat weight in Occume plywood
    Designed optional waterballast
    Designed displacement
    Maximum displacement
    Main sail area
    Mizzen sail area
    Main mast length.

    If you have it to hand...any naval architecture: prismatic, position of LCB etc for the froude speed you chose to optimise for etc.

    Is it all 9mm, 9mm bottom/ 6 mm sides, 12mm bottom 9mm sides?
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 03-21-2018 at 08:34 AM.

  18. #193
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    3,417

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    I have not cruised an open boat. I have cruised a 20' Pennant Sloop and a 26' Friendship Sloop without engines. I took these boats up and down both shores of Long Island, including through inlets and the East River NYC, and alongshore in the Atlantic. Each of those and my 19' dory had oars as an auxiliary. The dory was a beamy sailing dory, high sided too. Not a great rower, but could be rowed slowly and steadily for hours. The Friendship was very slow to row, about half a knot in a calm. The Pennant was a keelboat too, rowed a bit faster and easier. I managed these boats well by working with wind and tide, waiting or rowing short distances when necessary. I never intended them to be long distance rowboats.
    The Townie is probably less capable than any of those boats, I think a small outboard and a good pair of oars is a makes sense.
    I think Long Steps can cruise the coast without often having to row far, using currents and wind and patience.

  19. #194
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    447

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    John, I am also interested in the dry weight of your boat: I am thinking of something new with the features you are describing, but I want to tow her with a small car, 1.4 l motor, Peugeot 206, so in order to to use a cheaper, unbraked trailer the whole packet should be under 500 kg.
    I really like your expedition boats and I am glad we will have at least one of your designs at the Punterweekend. Frank

  20. #195
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,164

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by johngsandusky View Post
    I have not cruised an open boat. I have cruised a 20' Pennant Sloop and a 26' Friendship Sloop without engines. I took these boats up and down both shores of Long Island, including through inlets and the East River NYC, and alongshore in the Atlantic. Each of those and my 19' dory had oars as an auxiliary. The dory was a beamy sailing dory, high sided too. Not a great rower, but could be rowed slowly and steadily for hours. The Friendship was very slow to row, about half a knot in a calm. The Pennant was a keelboat too, rowed a bit faster and easier. I managed these boats well by working with wind and tide, waiting or rowing short distances when necessary. I never intended them to be long distance rowboats.
    The Townie is probably less capable than any of those boats, I think a small outboard and a good pair of oars is a makes sense.
    I think Long Steps can cruise the coast without often having to row far, using currents and wind and patience.

    any photos off your dory? was it a wood boat or glass?

  21. #196
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    3,417

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Hi Dan, I think have some pics that I will try to post. The boat was built in the eighties by two brothers in Connecticut. I bought it from one when he was old and ill. His wife told me that they had enlarged a dory skiff from The Dory Book. Judging from the boat they expanded a rowing dory 50% in all dimensions and added a rig. The boat was built of lapstrake plywood, wire tied and glass taped. She was quite seaworthy and had good overall stability, and at times was quite fast. If I were to do it, she would have less rocker and be narrower. I added ballast, and built a low bench to get my weight inboard for light air.

  22. #197
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    3,417

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    IMG_0804.jpgIMG_0805.jpgIMG_0806.jpgIMG_0807.jpg

    Here she is at Cape Cod a few years ago. Sorry for the reflections, these are pics of pictures.

  23. #198
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,164

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    oh wow, pretty hull. The Chamberlain dory skiff is a powerfull hull to start with I can only imagine it at 19ft!!!


    I wonder if any lack luster performance may have been due to conservative amount of sail area?

  24. #199
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    3,417

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    I don't know if I ever measured the sail area. I know I never took a gps to measure her speed. Reaching in a fresh breeze she seemed to plane. Beating in light air was her worst performance. Overall I was quite happy with her.

  25. #200
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    On the river, Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    4,409

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post


    John it's hard to see the numbers on the drawing. Could you clarify Long Steps final dimensions in ft and inches, weight in kilos, sail area in sq ft for us:-

    LOA
    LWL
    Waterline beam
    Oarlock beam
    Gunwale beam
    Freeboard above the waterline
    Estimated final (empty of stuff but with rig etc) boat weight in Occume plywood
    Designed optional waterballast
    Designed displacement
    Maximum displacement
    Main sail area
    Mizzen sail area
    Main mast length.

    If you have it to hand...any naval architecture: prismatic, position of LCB etc for the froude speed you chose to optimise for etc.

    Is it all 9mm, 9mm bottom/ 6 mm sides, 12mm bottom 9mm sides?
    I'll get back to you on that Ed.
    Give me a day or two.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  26. #201
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
    Posts
    8,164

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by johngsandusky View Post
    I don't know if I ever measured the sail area. I know I never took a gps to measure her speed. Reaching in a fresh breeze she seemed to plane. Beating in light air was her worst performance. Overall I was quite happy with her.
    reaching must have been a blast! sometimes hose ballanced jibs have difficulty setting just right, up wind, but pull like crazy off the wind.

    how did this boat row? it's pretty big, but Chamberlain seemed to have a way with row boats, the 13' Dory skiff is an excellent one man boat for rowing in rough water and against wind, just the right mix of free board with out too much windage, even the 21' Alpha dory rowed pretty well with one and was a real performer with 2 at the oars.

  27. #202
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    3,417

    Default Re: Size in Sail-and-Oar Boats

    I once rowed her a few miles in a calm as darkness fell. The oars were only 8', pretty short for a beamy dory. I just stroked slowly and easily, she went along well.
    That boat had some interesting characteristics. The builders had made the sails and spars too. The rudder went into a case forward of the mizzen, but the blade was tiny, about the size of a canoe paddle, maybe less. That and the bottom rocker made trim and balance essential in steering. Those same traits let me steer her over flats (after a fashion) without the board or rudder by sail trim and balance. I really enjoyed that boat, and would have kept her except that she did not fit in my garage.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •