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Thread: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    Tuscon AZ
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    4,961

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    This reminds me of a Parker Dawson.
    Photo coming......
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Waterbury, Connecticut
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    1,876

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Has anybody publish an accessible study of windage and its effects on a small sailboat? Especially its effect on windward courses. The fore- and aft-cabin look very useful for righting, but how do they effect one's day-to-day experience? -- Wade

  3. #73
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    Abbotsford, B.C.
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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    This guy makes some " can lean pretty far and come back up " boats.

    Kark Stanbaugh
    Chesapeake Marine Design
    basil

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    260

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes
    ...I would be interested to hear from Craic about the Bay Raider if he gets around to it, maybe start it's own thread...Has your Mag article run yet? can you tell us any more? this is a permanent version of my idea of strapping inflated Gloucester ball to the deck bow and stern... lots of bouyancy up high. Is the self righting achieved with bouyancy and hull weight alone or is there ballast involved? water or permanent? in the centerboard or internal?

    looks like a very capable craft, similar size and weight, little larger transom but very much along the lines of how I envision Centennial...
    Daniel,

    I never submitted the article. I wrote it, but then found it sounded all too self-important, and I did not want that publicity.
    I now have the boat I wanted, and that is enough for me.

    And in earnest, I today think the issue is not really of general interest. There are very few people who need a boat as tough as mine, and those who want one are perfectly able to fend for themselves, or otherwise do contact me privately.

    My starting point was the ocean rowing boats for single rowers. Only, minus too much of the rowing.
    I sent a brief to a few designers for an "oceanable" small shallow draught sailer.
    They came back with big numbers, in money, and especially in terms of timeframe.

    I then looked at making an ocean rowing boat sailable. Got nowhere, they are too tender. So I then looked at making a small shallow draught sailer oceanable.

    That was quicker, more economic, and much easier. I ended with having an already bullet-proof little sailer made practically bomb-proof by a yard with vast expertise in ocean rowing boats.

    Converted stowage area under the cockpit floor level into airtanks, fillable on demand to increase waterballast load, sealed the cabin watertight, added the watertight buoyancy structure over the stern, and reinforced the tiller and the rudder fastening.
    Built a stronger standing rig, modified the sails, and added handrails and fastening points, proper VHF and solar charging.

    I am not looking at crossing an ocean with it, presently, but I now have a boat well suited for my everyday tasks, i.e. mostly Mackerel and big Pollack fishing, and drinking cider on the way home, and which I could also take out much much farther.

    It's really a boat for everyday use, singlehandable of course, and fun to sail in challenging conditions too.

    The biggest benefit I enjoy from it, is the centre cockpit feeling of protection and comfort, and the feeling of having a boat more capable than I am myself. C.

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    Hamilton New Zealand
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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Thank you for mentioning John Welsfords Penguin and Francois Viviers Meaban in this context. And thanks to Ian McColgin for mentioning Phil Bolgers Birdwatcher.
    Would you know, have they been designed to be, or in practice already proven themselves to be self-righting from any angle i.e. a roller?

    These are cabin boats. Are there open boats out there yet to be selfrighting from any angle?

    As open sailers all I found are the ancient Stromness Lifeboats Good Shepherd and John A Hay at http://www.stromnesslifeboat.org.uk/...n-history.html , and one Phil Morrison designed ocean-rowing boat converted to a sailer.
    Any boat, even the self righting motor lifeboats, will have a range of stability when inverted. Some will have such a narrow range of stability inverted that they take only a little to start them rolling back so they're effectively self righting from any angle.
    To do that with an open boat is difficult, it requires narrow beam and a lot of very high up bouyancy, so you end up with what is effectively a "closed" boat with a big open cockpit in the middle and a lot of ballast as low down as possible.


    To get an open boat that will self right from 90 Deg though is much easier, same as above but less extreme. Note that only in very extreme circumstances will a small boat be rolled past that by wind alone, if she's designed to be able to right from that angle it normally takes wave action to keep her going over.

    I was in one of my 6M Whalers out on a mountain lake a few weeks ago when we were caught flat footed by a 30 knot gust, were knocked flat, and the boat self righted from mast parallel with the water. We had some bailing to do but carried on and won the race. She came up on her own, I was able to get the owner back aboard as she came up and she was stable when upright and swamped. Thats almost as important as being able to right her.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  6. #76
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    Sep 2002
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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    John Welsford's Pilgrim was designed to be self-righting from 90 degrees even when half full of water. Might be worth a look.

    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/pilgrim/index.htm

    Tom
    Yes, thats the case. The prototype has been tested and comes back up without assistance.
    Thanks Tom.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    260

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Yes, thats the case. The prototype has been tested and comes back up without assistance.
    Thanks Tom.

    John Welsford
    John,
    I applaud you wholeheartedly for making your designs so safe. In Europe minimum safety is a legal requirement for all production boats. Home-builts are still exempt, unless they are to be sold on. Beats me why many designers and home-boatbuilders still ignore even the most basic safety regulations re angle of vanishing stability and self-righting. They are there for good reason, and, if cleverly adapted, can still result in excellently performing boats. C.

  8. #78
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    Sep 2002
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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    John,
    I applaud you wholeheartedly for making your designs so safe. In Europe minimum safety is a legal requirement for all production boats. Home-builts are still exempt, unless they are to be sold on. Beats me why many designers and home-boatbuilders still ignore even the most basic safety regulations re angle of vanishing stability and self-righting. They are there for good reason, and, if cleverly adapted, can still result in excellently performing boats. C.
    Thanks Craic. I get to go sailing in quite a few of my boats, so its not only the safety of my customers thats a factor in the designing of my boats, but also my own hide is on the line.
    I was away cruising with a group of four boats in the Marlborough sounds a couple of weeks ago, a 6M Whaler, a pair of Navigators and a SCAMP. We had some challenging conditions, and a great deal of fun. Look up "Kenepuru Capers" on Weebly, we're going to try and do it again next year.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
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    3,242

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Most boats naturally meet the requirements in the ISO standards for their intended purpose. In this case for open boats it would be Design Category 'D' (.5 metre seas and F 4 or up to 17 knots wind) , or possibly 'C' ( 2.0 metre seas and F 6 26 knots wind). A small expedition boat should be easily righted or self righting from a mast in the water knockdown. It is not really that difficult but it does require intent.

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    Hamilton New Zealand
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    3,395

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    Most boats naturally meet the requirements in the ISO standards for their intended purpose. In this case for open boats it would be Design Category 'D' (.5 metre seas and F 4 or up to 17 knots wind) , or possibly 'C' ( 2.0 metre seas and F 6 26 knots wind). A small expedition boat should be easily righted or self righting from a mast in the water knockdown. It is not really that difficult but it does require intent.
    I find that to meet 'C', or "Small Expedition Boat" its much easier to start with a blank sheet of paper and the intention to design to that than it is to try and modify an existing boat. That might sound obvious but a lot of people try.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  11. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Shore, Massachusetts
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    5,502

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    Daniel,

    I never submitted the article. I wrote it, but then found it sounded all too self-important, and I did not want that publicity.
    I now have the boat I wanted, and that is enough for me.

    And in earnest, I today think the issue is not really of general interest. There are very few people who need a boat as tough as mine, and those who want one are perfectly able to fend for themselves, or otherwise do contact me privately.

    My starting point was the ocean rowing boats for single rowers. Only, minus too much of the rowing.
    I sent a brief to a few designers for an "oceanable" small shallow draught sailer.
    They came back with big numbers, in money, and especially in terms of timeframe.

    I then looked at making an ocean rowing boat sailable. Got nowhere, they are too tender. So I then looked at making a small shallow draught sailer oceanable.

    That was quicker, more economic, and much easier. I ended with having an already bullet-proof little sailer made practically bomb-proof by a yard with vast expertise in ocean rowing boats.

    Converted stowage area under the cockpit floor level into airtanks, fillable on demand to increase waterballast load, sealed the cabin watertight, added the watertight buoyancy structure over the stern, and reinforced the tiller and the rudder fastening.
    Built a stronger standing rig, modified the sails, and added handrails and fastening points, proper VHF and solar charging.

    I am not looking at crossing an ocean with it, presently, but I now have a boat well suited for my everyday tasks, i.e. mostly Mackerel and big Pollack fishing, and drinking cider on the way home, and which I could also take out much much farther.

    It's really a boat for everyday use, singlehandable of course, and fun to sail in challenging conditions too.

    The biggest benefit I enjoy from it, is the centre cockpit feeling of protection and comfort, and the feeling of having a boat more capable than I am myself. C.
    "I then looked at making an ocean rowing boat sailable. Got nowhere, they are too tender. "

    interesting, this is just the route taken by Johanson, the banks dory has very little initial stability but loads of reserve once the rail gets down near the water... though to be fair the dory men were avid sailors of their banks dorys, which could even go to windward a little once half full of fish.

    I'd be interested to hear how you like the cabin set up you have, what would you do differently if given the opportunity.

  12. #82
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    260

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    , ...
    I'd be interested to hear how you like the cabin set up you have, what would you do differently if given the opportunity.
    Inside the cabin no standard mattresses, but two giant outdoor bean bags filled with styrofoam pellets, for extra buoyancy. The bean bags are great, they adapt to any heeling of the boat or body position from sitting to lying, and can be stuffed aside without ado for getting at the hard stowage compartments underneath. For dry small stuff stowage only canvas pockets along the outside walls, nothing edgy protruding.
    There will be anchoring points for strapping me down in rough seas.C.

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