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Thread: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

  1. #1
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    Default Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    "Self-Righting" meaning self-righting from any angle.

    "Shallow Draught" meaning 2 ft. max (with centerboard up).

    "Small" meaning 23 ft. hull length max, and lightweight enough to be trailerable.

    "Sailer" meaning capable of tacking up to upwind in a stiff breeze.

    Any such boat / plans available anywhere?

    Anyone interested in a new design?

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    My, such a leading question! How well does it row?

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    I'm having fun picturing her. I couldn't say whether she already exists or not but I rather enjoy the process of creating her from scratch in my mind. What kind of rig were you looking for? If she's self-righting that means she's more than just a daysailer because she can't have an open cockpit, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's anything down below. Were you looking to be able to overnight on her with maybe one or two other people?

    You've piqued my curiosity, thanks for posting!
    "And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by..."

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

    -Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Bolger's bird watcher boat can be laid over to the masts in the water but I don't know if she'll come up from any angle. All boats have a greater or lesser range of inverted stability where, assuming flat water and all, they can be balanced upsidedown. Some supposedly off shore boats have a good thirty degrees - fifteen each side - of inverted stability. This need not be the end of the story since conditions that cause a full 180 capsize involved high enough seas to slop the boat back up unless the range of inverted stability is really broad.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    I'd say the best way to have any boat self right from any angle is to have a) sufficient ballast low down to right it from up to 100 degrees but not enough to overcome inverted buoyancy and b) ensure the topsides are asymmetrical in buoyancy so the boat is naturally inclined to be unstable in an inverted position and will seek to roll sufficiently for the ballast to reassert it's authority and right the boat. 'Course cleanup of the insides will be a female pooch in heat. Time to start looking for a suitable hull and plan to modify the topsides to suit.
    Last edited by Lewisboater; 01-28-2014 at 10:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    I'd be thinking along the lines of a king size version of the Martin 16, which is almost uncapsizable and very unstable upside down, mainly due to a narrow beam and a ballasted high aspect bulb keel. By all reports a good sailer, too. I have no idea if any such design currently exists.


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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Are you after a daysailer or a cruiser with a cabin?

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Hi
    how about a welsford Penguin or a viver meabean?
    I have a 22ft design similar to Penguin but strip planked.
    Very easy to draft / build.
    just looking for someone to build it!
    Yours James

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesh View Post
    Hi
    how about a welsford Penguin or a viver meabean? ...
    Thank you for mentioning John Welsfords Penguin and Francois Viviers Meaban in this context. And thanks to Ian McColgin for mentioning Phil Bolgers Birdwatcher.
    Would you know, have they been designed to be, or in practice already proven themselves to be self-righting from any angle i.e. a roller?

    These are cabin boats. Are there open boats out there yet to be selfrighting from any angle?

    As open sailers all I found are the ancient Stromness Lifeboats Good Shepherd and John A Hay at http://www.stromnesslifeboat.org.uk/...n-history.html , and one Phil Morrison designed ocean-rowing boat converted to a sailer.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    What are you planning to do that you need her "self-righting from any angle"? There's a part of me that says that's just not possible to design into a boat (the extreme case perhaps being a pitch-pole or roll that sticks the mast into the seabed, preventing the boat from moving being inverted at all, until the mast breaks and she topples off it, probably still not upright.) What are you going to be doing that you need this? Eskimo rolling a big open boat is going to be tricky at best.
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by htom View Post
    What are you planning to do that you need her "self-righting from any angle"? ...
    : Passagemaking on the Atlantic coast. I am looking for the ultimate seaworthiness in a small affordable lightweight sailing boat suitable for single-handing. Possibly an adaptation of an existing design, or a new design from scratch.
    Why not do some ocean crossing?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=absM70tXBDU .

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Supposedly the Pelican and has asymetrical flotation foam, which will cause it to roll back upright on its own if swamped or turtled. I have no idea if it works. I was thinking of the Paradox which has been calculated to have positive lever to something like 165 degrees. Not sure how Matt Layden found the CG to do the curve.

    Modern lifeboats all have full 180 degree recovery. It is all about the relative relationship of weights and volume. It is not really that hard to design, but they tend to be ugly. You need a concentration of weight near the bottom and a shape for the upper body which is unstable.....Think of a section like an egg with ballast at the big end and the small end of the vessel pointing up in the normal. As long as you keep the water out, and the top side is more unstable than the bottom side it should right itself every time. You toss a baloon onto the water it will always become stable in one position, and no matter how you try to balance it in a different attitude it will always return to the original position.
    Last edited by gilberj; 01-29-2014 at 12:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Bearing in mind the boats you now sail, look at something that has caracteristics of the ocean rowing boats. Some high flotation at the ends, but more girth to balance the sailing loads. Flush deck with foot wells.
    Some of Bolger designs, like the Micro, can go well over 90deg and keep the water out, so a slightly more shapely version of the Long Micro? Good single hander too. Not much string to worry about and enough covered space to cruise for a while.
    A

    Note: I am currently building a dory-ised Micro, so biased.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    TAre there open boats out there yet to be selfrighting from any angle?
    John Welsford's Pilgrim was designed to be self-righting from 90 degrees even when half full of water. Might be worth a look.

    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/pilgrim/index.htm

    Tom
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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    The ISO Standards are used in Europe to define the service standard of safety for a vessel. Basically the sea has been divided into 4 sea areas "A" for open ocean and wind force 10 and 7 metre seas.....down to "D" Wind force 4 and 0.5 metre seas. The standards define levels of water tight integrity and levels of stability.
    For a boat to meet the "A" class (offshore) it does not need to be self righting to 180 degrees. Depending on a number of factors it should right itself from between about 120 degrees to about 140 degrees....basically is should reliably recover from a mast in the water knockdown. For sailing vessels designers are now using the STIX number or formula, which is an application of the ISO standards. You will hear offshore racers talk of the STIX number.
    Most sailing yachts are sailed in near coastal conditions, and would be expected to meet the requirements of class "C" (Beaufort 6 and 2 metre seas)......or "B" (Beaufort 8 and 4 metre seas)
    These standards are basically a mathematical calculation. It does not directly follow that you are in immediate dire risk if the conditions exceed the class of the boat, nor does it mean that if you survive a storm in a boat classed for sea area "D" it should be re-rated upwards. Carefull handling (seamanship) is still a critical component.

    Smaller boats are more vulnerable than larger boats.....A reasonably decent 60 footer is less likely to experience difficulties than a very good 20 footer. In other words if you are planning a rough passage on a smaller boat you should spend more effort considering and preparing for possible situations than is likely necessary on a much larger boat.. People like Sven and Roger Taylor, among others have proved that very small craft can make rough passages successfully.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    I suspect that Craic is not after something capable of righting from a simple wind-induced knockdown but a boat that can recover from being rolled by wave action? As such a reduced size ocean rowboat or maybe something like a scaled-down pulling lifeboat?

    I have daydreamed about such a boat for a long time and came to the conclusion that a cabin creates many difficulties - especially getting in and out. Many issues with ocean rowboats seem to occur when hatches are left open. My preference would be for a substantial foredeck/cuddy - maybe you could just roll back into it on the sliding seat? With some decent shelter and excellent modern outdoor gear it could be comfortable enough.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    So Craic...what is your idea??

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    If you want an open boat that could self-right, I'd start with a lifeboat-like form, such as L. F. Herreshoff's Carpenter (18' x 4.5'), rescale it up to your 23', then add generous turtle decks to make unstable when inverted, and lead ballast as low as possible. Since a Sea Pearl is pretty much a scaled up Carpenter, you might find one of those that you can modify to suit if you don't want to build from scratch.
    Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
    When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
    And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
    And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Check out Adelie 14 and 16 by Jaques Martens at http://www.bateau.com. Simple, light weight, stitch and glue cabin boats of exceptionally strong construction. They are designed to be self righting from 135 degrees, and to be unstable in the inverted position. These are truly remarkable designs, simple and relatively low cost to build. If I were to build a cabin boat instead of an open boat, this is what I would build. I haven't seen anything as simple to build that can match it. Good luck. - John

  21. #21

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    I forgot to mention that Martens has offered to design a true open-ocean cruising version of Adelie if enough people will pay a $200.00 fee to make the necessary modifications. - John

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    LFHs Carpenter, that's a fine proposal. The Sea Pearl 21, not so much.

    Yes I am thinking about modifying an existing boat/design, rather than going for an all new design. However, for achieving self righting from any angle, the boat substrate to start from must already be near the criteria set out above, i.e. must be selfrighting from around 110 degrees, with ballast and board securable for full inversion, and with a standing rig design which could be modified / hardened enough to let it survive some rolling.

    But then, I am by now a dyed-in-the-wool waterballast fan. I have experienced what waterballast can do, and would hate going back to a lot of fixed ballast which most old boat designs rely on for stability. The solely waterballasted BayRaider has an AVS of approx. 120 degrees which is superb, and also does waterballast automatically help to de-stabilize a fully inverted hull, which fixed ballast can not.

    Some Ocean rowing boats -all of which have waterballast- are "Class A" boats, built -and proven- to withstand storm conditions on the open sea.
    Last edited by Craic; 01-30-2014 at 03:33 AM.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    These new lightweight ballasted dinghies are worth examining.

    http://www.k2sailing.net

    Lightweight hulls, no problem in ply epoxy composite, allow small low down bulbs to achieve self righting. Much more effective than internal ballast. Water ballast is a great convenience in shallow water trailer sailing, offshore brings different priorities.

    A colleague capsized his Hawk 20 gybing in strong winds in Hurst narrows, but even though the boat has 600 kg of internal ballast she would not right herself. He had to swim over the side and climb on the centreboard to right her. After talking to him about the incident I concluded I would rather have 100kg low down on a dagger board and I bought a Laser Stratos Keel. http://hawk20.co.uk

    You will be carrying a fair amount of gear, food and fresh water in the bottom of the boat anyway. Perhaps a bulb can keep helping as store are depleted.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-30-2014 at 04:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    I don't know about the self righting from any angle but http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/w...g-cruiser.html
    Last edited by PeterSibley; 02-01-2014 at 05:12 AM.
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    One solution to self-righting from inverted is to have high topsides (see RNLI lifeboats) and liquid ballast that drains automatically to a chamber placed on only one side. On righting, the liquid drains back into the ballast compartment.

    I've been designing a boat with these features for river cruising and short coastal hops: lifting centreboard, stepped mast for easy lowering, etc. Just looking for a suitable radius chine hull (for aesthetic reasons) 7-8 metres in length, strip planking or ply-epoxy build, varnished hull. Ballast part liquid, part lead-acid batteries (electric auxillary drive)

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    To make the boat unstable when inverted.

    1. Minimise inverted beam. The weight will have to projected further into the air to get it outside of the centre of buoyancy as it turns to self right it. A narrower boat will do this more easily.

    2. Maximise the righting weight. Using lead puts the weight deeper down a fixed object than a less dense material like cast iron.

    3. The projection of mass into the air can be facilitated by topside buoyancy. When inverted the topside buoyancy projects the mass fixed to the keel higher into the air, assuming no down flooding of the hull i.e. its watertight when inverted.

    This is used successfullly in shallow draft RNLI rescue boats with a large cabin. If the buoyancy is sufficiently large the projection can be sufficient to reduce the need for a 'ballast keel' and water ballast in the bottom of the boat suficient to self right it. Matt Layden's Paradox etc combines all these factors. On a bigger scale the Baycruiser 23 does also. A light rig also is beneficial.

    The topside buoyancy doesn't have to be central, the ocean row boats put it in the ends so they can row in the middle section. Again coupled with a minimised beam, the end chambers project the hull into the air so the inside waterballast self rights it. The dissadvantage is more windage and aesthetics in some cases.

    Inverted instability on beamier hull shapes can be facilitated by purposefully downflooding chambers that flood one side of the hull. This cants the ballast from off centre to hasten self righting and reduce 180 degree instability. Assymetrical permanent buoyancy can do the same thing. Reducing side tank buoyancy will make it easier to get back upright but at the cost of much more water in the boat.

    Current design with high stabilty I can think of

    1. Welsford Pilgrim (defo designed to self right from 90. Beyond that it just needs to a man to step on the gunwale. Its also designed with a sail plan that reefs down, constructional strength and subfloor storage and buoyancy as part of the whole package. It's Johns own design for alongshore passagemaking in an open boat.

    2. Matt Layden's designs. The enclosed cabin reduces exposure. The heavy displacement for the length with water ballast makes them self right. There is video of one from 90 but I think the cabin makes them self right much further than that.

    3. The Baycruiser 23 I think does, but plans aren't available and its a carbon rig affair.

    4. I'd speak to Francois Vivier about the metal centreboard Stir Ven and the smaller water ballast Stir Ven 19.

    5. I'd ask Eric Henseval about Souriceau and the Aviateur designs. He'll know about the AVS profile.

    6. Keith Callaghan and his blue eyes/ skies designs. Very fast boats with cabins. He will have predicted stability profiles too.

    7. We have a successful grp open boat in the UK called a Hawk 20. Its a centreboard lead ballast (50% ratio) in the bottom that self rights from 90 irrespective of the centreboard position. Very popular fast (well over hull speed - I think they plane) , carry full sail in Force 7 and sit very well in bad weather looking at them in out local harbour in strong South Westerlies. They self drain and have a very effective motor mount internally that pivots up. That's a simple hull just a few strakes that shows what is possible with a centreboarder.

    For what you want to do, alongshore voyaging, build it, trailer it, pay for it, looking at costs etc, for an open boat with broadly self righting characteristics a Pilgrim would be the best option probably. Its actually designed for that from the outset, which few are with reference to storage, motion comfort etc. To get righting from 180, your more likely going to need a cabin for topside buoyancy, a projecting ballast keel or be looking at assymetric down flooding/ side buoyancy but then it needs to be a self drainer like a Laser Stratos keel. I'd talk to Vivier about the Stir Ven's too for a longer boat.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-30-2014 at 06:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Thanks for pointing out the Hawk20. Never heard of that one before, seems excellent blend of characteristics for what I'm wishing to do with my daughters. This afternoon, it's near the top of my dreamboat-wish-list, I've decided that I'll keep my rowing in the gym :-) Unfortunately the price... (that's relative and personal of course).

    But Craic, how about giving up the ultimate stability request and going for a Woods Wizard catamaran (if you've got the resources)? I'm thinking that being out in conditions which might require ultimate stability is not smart anyway (even if the boat rolls back succesfully you might get seriously hurt or worse in the process), while in any more reasonable weather you might 'have more fun', (better perfomance and more comfort) in a little multihull cruiser? Some say that with proper seamanship a multihull cruiser would even be safer in bad weather
    Last edited by matoi; 01-30-2014 at 06:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Now, while making myself a cup of coffee, I've been thinking how the only thing about Hawk20 that doesn't fit my religion is the rig. If I had a magic wand, I'd want to try one with a freestanding cat-ketch or cat-yawl rig. That's the right choice for a proper cruising monohull in this era, not a sloop with a classic spinaker. If it must be a sloop at least it should have a asymmetric spinnaker (because it's simpler and safer). And then, it occured to me that Grahan Byrnes seems to have just recently designed a CS20 MkIII which has raised deck w. cabin, cat-ketch rig, and water balast which seems to be your obsession :-) Have a look.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Now that we understand your requirements better:

    Realize that you don't need perfect self-righting from 180 inversion. Conditions that put you all the way over will rock the boat quickly so you'll come bobbing back up one side or the other if you have positive righting at 140 degrees or even less. Minimum might be about 120 degrees.

    There's much to be said for an unballasted or lightly ballasted boat that's been designed with the considerable load that cruising gear entails. This would mean waterproof storage shaped to sit down in the boat and perhaps come up to a flat surface about the height of the top of an enclosed centerboard case. You might make a turtle deck over the foreward half of the boat so laying atop this stowage gives you a nice flat berth right down the center.

    If you then have waterproof floatation - can include stowage for light items like clothing - along the gunnels and if you've a suitably narrow hull, you'll be self-righting, easily driven under oar or sail in a sea, and light enough to be of a human scale.

    I do not see value to water ballast in this design brief since a boat beamy enough to really use such ballast while sailing will be a pig to row and not that much fun to sail unless designed for that sort of racing and not for highly versitile cruising.

    As for the hull - there are thousands of great choises. Something in the dory line or a version of that dory-ish tender that LFH drew for Walrus - see Sensibile Cruising Designs and also a WoodenBoat Magazine article about a guy who made than and then an expanded improved version and who does on an heroic scale just the adventure cruising you dream of.

    G'luck

    Edited to add - The WBM article on LFH's Carpenter is in #174.
    Last edited by Ian McColgin; 01-30-2014 at 02:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by matoi View Post
    Thanks for pointing out the Hawk20...Unfortunately the price... (that's relative and personal of course).
    They aren't cheap new but are very well moulded and fitted out, Harken fittings break back trailers etc. They will only use the best product available. I've wondered myself about buying one from time to time as they are sold from my home town at Christchurch. Secondhand they can be had and resold from about 8000. The quality boat and parts makes them a solid purchase. There are a few on Apollo Duck. The newest small cabin version is still too new for cheaper secondhand ones and I think I like the open boat cockpit better, all the sail halyards are led back and easy to get at. They are really rock solid on a mooring in high winds, more so than any other boat of the same length I've seen. A combination of ballast and low windage maybe.

    With accurate 5 day forecasts these days, excellent charting and predictable tide flow it should be possible to avoid extreme conditions for most coastal voyaging.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-30-2014 at 09:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    hi
    How about adding a bulb to a John Welsford design,such as Awol, Pathfinder or sweat pea.

    Cannot see why a 100kg bulb keel would harm performance, yet give self righting.

    Like a lazer stratos?

    Or Haze from keith Callahan.

    Yours James.

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    This boat, mentioned above by Peter, is very close in design to a lot of boats designed for long-distance rowing and to be self-righting from any angle. The CLC Faering Cruiser may not give you recovery from 180 degrees, but if it doesn't, something very similar definitely could. The key is to have flotation high up and a deck shape that makes the boat unstable upside-down. That, combined with some ballast down low (water in this case), and she'll roll back up.

    Having pointed that out, I will also join those who question the need for such a high degree of capsize recovery. Coastal cruising, it is very, very hard to roll a boat all the way over. And when you make recovery from any angle a requirement, you compromise other qualities that you'll have to live with every minute that you're out there.

    For example, self-righting is easier to accomplish with a skinny boat, but to sail well, a boat needs a certain amount of beam. Likewise, crew comfort and carrying capacity are easier to achieve with some beam -- do you want to give up in that area to prepare for an event that will probably never occur? The skinny boat will heel more readily, as well. You'll have to reduce sail sooner, and on and on. Are the compromises worth it? The vast majority of coastal sailors find that they are not, which is why few boats are designed for it.



    -Dave

  33. #33

    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Forum members are pointing out that you are unnecessarily limiting yourself in your boat selection. You are really going about this the wrong way. Self righting is only one factor in choosing a seaworthy coastal cruiser. Strength of construction, resistance to capsize, and the ability to sail comfortably in all conditions, and an individual seamanship are even more important. My guess is you are new to cruising and are not confident in your own skills. Pick several designs that you like, and then check them out and see which are proven to be safe for cruising.

    Never underestimate the importance of being dry and comfortable. A self righting boat that rolls you and dunks you in cool weather can kill you a lot more quickly by hypothermia than a boat that rights from only ninety degrees, but keeps you comfortable and dry. Many times more cruising sailors have died from lack of seamanship or fatigue than have ever died from a defect in design. If you want to survive on the water, then quit going about this backwards. Stop worrying about self righting from any angle and concentrate on the things that actually matter, seamanship and a proven vessel! You will be much better off for it.

    Regards and good luck. - John

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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    <snip></snip>
    Smaller boats are more vulnerable than larger boats.....A reasonably decent 60 footer is less likely to experience difficulties than a very good 20 footer. In other words if you are planning a rough passage on a smaller boat you should spend more effort considering and preparing for possible situations than is likely necessary on a much larger boat.. People like Sven and Roger Taylor, among others have proved that very small craft can make rough passages successfully.
    I don't think this is necessarily true, something like a discarded electric light bulb floating in the sea is small and fragile but it will survive any storm and if it has a weight at one end it will stay mostly upright. As you say, there have been a few small boats that have proven to be capable of making ocean passages in rough weather. However, a decent 60 footer will be more comfortable.

    The boat I designed many years ago, see here http://www.hostellerssailingclub.org...y-for-cruising was my attempt to meet the requirements stated above, although I hope never to test the self righting capability. This boat has an arrangement to allow the air tank on one side to flood if it were to turn completely upside down. If I were to build another one I would probably try to increase ballast ratio a bit.

    There are a number of small keel boats that might be fully self righting, for example http://www.k1sailing.com/ However, boats of this genre usually have vertically lifting keels that tend to be much less practical for general sailing and creek exploration than a pivoted centreboard.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Default Re: Small Shallow Draught Self-Righting Sailer

    There is a difference between an undirected enclosed vessel like a light bulb and a vessel carrying a crew while prosecuting a voyage.
    I did not imply a small vessel is unsuited to a voyage. I said a person. Planning a small vessel voyage should be more specifically prepared for the possibility. Tank testing has shown any hull can be capsized by a breaking wave 55% of its length. I think the wording implies the chances of this happening increase rapidly around this point. For a 20 foot boat this would be a breaking wave ~12'. Obviously this is based on being beam on to the sea, and can be avoided....unless of course you broach at the wrong moment, or something.
    I am very interested in small voyaging boats but you should know the dangers and limitations before you put yourself in harms way.
    Last edited by gilberj; 01-30-2014 at 12:38 PM.

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