Oz Politics.

[Lugs]

The war is not over because there has not been a treaty.

This was the point of my earlier post #29608 in replying to you. Australia is the only Commonwealth country that has not signed a treaty with our Indigenous peoples therefore technically we are still at war.

Are you aware of the Barunga Statement?
A question worth researching is Why does Australia not have a Treaty with First Nations People?

I have formed the distinct impression that when First Nations people do speak in a more unified voice they are not listened to.

It is interesting to reflect on the follow on from the Barunga Statement, The Ularu Statement From the Heart........
This BBC article from just before the Ularu Statement.:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-40024622

If I'm not mistaken, the reason there's no treaty is that the indigenous people did not entertain the concept of sovereignty. There was no one to sign a treaty.


Sovereignty is the supreme authority within a territory. Sovereignty entails hierarchy within the state, as well as external autonomy for states. In any state, sovereignty is assigned to the person, body, or institution that has the ultimate authority over other people in order to establish a law or change an existing law.

[Lugs]

If I'm not mistaken, the reason there's no treaty is that the indigenous people did not entertain the concept of sovereignty. There was no one to sign a treaty.

Further to that


Sovereignty is the supreme authority within a territory. Sovereignty entails hierarchy within the state, as well as external autonomy for states. In any state, sovereignty is assigned to the person, body, or institution that has the ultimate authority over other people in order to establish a law or change an existing law.

[Lugs]

Well, that didn't take long did it? Lugs has nailed his flag to the mast and makes Ian look positively benign on the subject. No point in any reasoned argument or an appeal for long postponed justice there.

I don't know about making others look benign. I'm far from extreme on this, or any political issue. Quite middle of the road, in fact, and over the years I've been heavily involved in charity work for those genuinely in need. I don't see the gravy train of the indigenous industry as being in need. I don't see them doing anything for those in need either.

My side of politics focuses on creating an environment where those who seek to better themselves, succeed if you will, can do so. The woke left focuses on rewarding those who don't succeed. They try and "fix" all the things that are better dealt with by individuals.

[skuthorp]

If I'm not mistaken, the reason there's no treaty is that the indigenous people did not entertain the concept of sovereignty. There was no one to sign a treaty.

Further to that


Sovereignty is the supreme authority within a territory. Sovereignty entails hierarchy within the state, as well as external autonomy for states. In any state, sovereignty is assigned to the person, body, or institution that has the ultimate authority over other people in order to establish a law or change an existing law.

In that there was no King, or central government? Britain still stole the place and we are the inheritors. The fact of the existence of a patently obviously human species could and can not be denied. There were policies in place on my school days that were designd to 'breed out' Aboriginls, and stolen girls in the 'care' of the religious were trained to be domestic servants. The Meats twins in my class were Aboriginal, but had to sit and listen as it was taught that they would 'go quietly into the night' and eventually disappear. My grandfather's farm had a massacre site down along the creek still roughly fenced off and we as kids in the late 40s and 50's were told not to go there.
After Morrison and Howard in the modern era 'your side' of politics has no clothes.

(But it is good to have an opposing voice on the thread Lugs, it's been a while since Ian more or less self immolated)

[Hallam]

what are you talking about sku?

lugs is gatenby

Like in the post above with Skuthorp's statement, I thought it was good to have an opposing voice on the thread and looked forward to reasoned exchange from differing perspectives and hoped to avoid a pile on.

After this post of Lugs #29634 I thought Lugs was Ian.......... especially the statement "things are going to get ugly"

If Lugs isn't Ian I will delete this post. Otherwise any attempt at real communication is, in my opinion a waste of time.




........the second coming


the return #2

[WX]

what are you talking about sku?

lugs is gatenby

Quite possibly.

[WX]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-...ment/101912918

Mr Ah See remembers the abolition of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission in 2005, and believes it was detrimental for First Nations people."Aboriginal people in this country haven't had a national voice since the demise of ATSIC," he says.
"It's no wonder you've got the situation in Alice Springs – and by the way, alcohol's not the primary cause, it's a secondary symptom: the primary cause is welfare dependency and poverty.
"If we had that national voice — Aboriginal people have got the solutions, we've always had the solutions.

[Hallam]

If I'm not mistaken, the reason there's no treaty is that the indigenous people did not entertain the concept of sovereignty. There was no one to sign a treaty.


Sovereignty is the supreme authority within a territory. Sovereignty entails hierarchy within the state, as well as external autonomy for states. In any state, sovereignty is assigned to the person, body, or institution that has the ultimate authority over other people in order to establish a law or change an existing law.

Govenor George Arthur about 30 years after settlement, stated it was a fatal error a treaty had not been entered into with the Aboriginal people of Tasmania. Why would he say that if the prevailing thought was as you say. Add to this that my earlier post:

#29616 [Regarding NSW Governor’s proclamation it’s interesting that it was as a response to John Batman making a treaty with local indigenous for the establishment of Melbourne. Bourk’s proclamation rendered Batman’s treaty null and void.]

So there is John Batmans precedent for a treaty. At this time there were treaties being entered into in NZ and Canada. The obvious question is why not Australia given your argument that there was no one of sufficient authority or rank seems not to apply to NZ and Canada?

[Hallam]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-...ment/101912918

Thats a very good article WX. Well worth a read. Thanks for posting.

[Lugs]

Like in the post above with Skuthorp's statement, I thought it was good to have an opposing voice on the thread and looked forward to reasoned exchange from differing perspectives and hoped to avoid a pile on.

After this post of Lugs #29634 I thought Lugs was Ian.......... especially the statement "things are going to get ugly"

If Lugs isn't Ian I will delete this post. Otherwise any attempt at real communication is, in my opinion a waste of time.




........the second coming


the return #2

For a reasoned exchange, you need to graduate from personal attacks

[skuthorp]

I had thought about lugs/gatenby, but if so he's changed his writing style.
At this stage I'll treat him (sounds male) as a new poster who came across us on google or some such.

[skuthorp]

So 5% of political donors give 90% of the cash…………
Bribery.

[Hallam]

For a reasoned exchange, you need to graduate from personal attacks

If you are not Ian AKA Big Fella, then the post is not directed at you Lugs. If I gave that impression I do not hesitate to apologise as you arrive here with a clean slate and deserve to be treated as such.
If you are Ian and hiding your identity then what can I say? The track record is obvious and dismal and I'm not prepared to take any crap. Been there done that in an elongated attempt at reasonable discourse and it was impossible to achieve. The disingenuous nature of the incognito presence here would be rather obvious wouldn't it?

I said I would delete my post if you are not Ian. I stated this in the hope Lugs would not take the comment as aimed at him personally. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Maybe you can state categorically that I am barking up the wrong tree in my suspicion?

[Lugs]

If you are not Ian AKA Big Fella, then the post is not directed at you Lugs. If I gave that impression I do not hesitate to apologise as you arrive here with a clean slate and deserve to be treated as such.
If you are Ian and hiding your identity then what can I say? The track record is obvious and dismal and I'm not prepared to take any crap. Been there done that in an elongated attempt at reasonable discourse and it was impossible to achieve. The disingenuous nature of the incognito presence here would be rather obvious wouldn't it?

I said I would delete my post if you are not Ian. I stated this in the hope Lugs would not take the comment as aimed at him personally. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Maybe you can state categorically that I am barking up the wrong tree in my suspicion?

You are most certainly barking up the wrong tree, Mr Hallam, if you are seeking reasonable discourse.

You and Mr Paul Pless appear to be the only people on the last three pages of this thread (at least, as that is as far back as I looked) who are not using an "incognito presence here". Then again, you may not be Mr Hallam, for all I know. You may be Mr Hallam (incognito), or maybe Mr (incognito) Hallam, or maybe Hallam is a brand of cheese?

My suggestion to you, Hallam, that you concentrate on the subject matter, rather than looking to denigrate the individual who posted it. That said, your postings will always, henceforth, remind me of Halloumi cheese.

Oh, and by the way, is there a treaty with the indigenous people of Malaysia?

[Hallam]

You are most certainly barking up the wrong tree, Mr Hallam, if you are seeking reasonable discourse.

You and Mr Paul Pless appear to be the only people on the last three pages of this thread (at least, as that is as far back as I looked) who are not using an "incognito presence here". Then again, you may not be Mr Hallam, for all I know. You may be Mr Hallam (incognito), or maybe Mr (incognito) Hallam, or maybe Hallam is a brand of cheese?

My suggestion to you, Hallam, that you concentrate on the subject matter, rather than looking to denigrate the individual who posted it. That said, your postings will always, henceforth, remind me of Halloumi cheese.

Oh, and by the way, is there a treaty with the indigenous people of Malaysia?

I note with interest my comment referencing barking up the wrong tree was directed clearly at the question of wether or not I am conversing with Ian and seeking clarification if Lugs is another person assumed new to the forum. Your answer, in a seemingly carefully worded manner avoids a direct answer to the question. To clarify again I am not looking to denigrate, Rather it is clarification with respect to the unanswered question.
Regarding Malaysia, I think it’s a false equivalence to compare the British presence in Malaysia with the British occupation of Australia with respect to the issue of treaty. The Sultan of Kedah in 1786granted the island of Penang to the British East India Company.
I would also like to point out my communication style is clear straight forward and effort is made to avoid ambiguity as a strategy to avoid an unnecessarily convoluted discourse.

[WX]

If he's not BF then he's a long lost twin.

[gypsie]

Malaysia, interesting off-the-top-of-my-head geographic location from 'Mr. Lugs'.

but, hmmm, lots of syllables in that sentence. Jury is out for me.

You are most certainly barking up the wrong tree, Mr Hallam, if you are seeking reasonable discourse.

However, 33 posts and barely a nice word to be had. Guns at dawn from the get go. Could be a big fella.....

[Lugs]

Malaysia, interesting off-the-top-of-my-head geographic location from 'Mr. Lugs'.

but, hmmm, lots of syllables in that sentence. Jury is out for me.


However, 33 posts and barely a nice word to be had. Guns at dawn from the get go. Could be a big fella.....

Barely a nice word to be had?

Can you please show me where I've been anywhere left of centre when the scale is nasty to the left, nice to the right. I've been attacked, I've been mocked, I've been maligned. You guys need to look in the mirror, and at the posts made by "your guys" on the thread. Show me where I've thrown anything but facts at one of you, without prior provocation, eg by Mr Hallam and his slur.

What's interesting about Malaysia? It fits Mr Hallam's "membership criteria". ie it has been a member of the Commonwealth since 1957, from memory.

Would you rather another Commonwealth country without a treaty with the indigenous people? Does Papua New Guinea fit the bill? It is probably worth looking at. Strong Denisovan and some cultural links too. Second worst country in the world to be a woman (ranked 162 out of 163 in the survey). Tribal initiation of boys in (some) tribes at age 7. Depending on the tribe, that initiation is either oral or anal. Women are regarded as a spiritual aberration. Shall I continue? Shall we compare the Raskal gangs of PNG with the emerging situation in the Alice?

I will put my nice hat on when you "gentlemen" stop attacking the individual and play nice when discussing politics, which is a bit of a hobby of mine. Funnily enough, I was invited to Australia Day drinks with the shadow Minister for Indigenous Affairs, at his home, but I decided to leave that one for a broader issues day. I did catch up (well, it was more than a catch up - I did a road trip to Melbourne in December) with someone who worked very closely with three recent Australian Prime Ministers. I'd been invited on a personal tour of the South Gippsland region and he was along for part of that and the drive down and back from Sydney. We, of course, discussed Albo - who at the time, I was a much stronger supporter of than I am now, as I watch his method devolve into blaming everyone else. But we also discussed Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison. I will leave that for another day, if I decide to hang around here. Hopefully you guys will learn how to debate, rather than insult.

[Lugs]

So 5% of political donors give 90% of the cash…………
Bribery.

Is this the figure for unions (and affiliated organisations)? They certainly know where their bread is buttered.

[Lugs]

talltree.jpg

Read that and weep. That sign, and adjacent bronze plaque, is where the world's tallest flowering plant grew. Oh, and was felled. Length was confirmed by a government surveyor.

That's Victorians for you. Always seeking to cut down tall poppies.

[gypsie]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-...ment/101912918

Man I'm so nervous about this referendum.
To my mind nobody talks to the real advantage which is to have a people representing a philosophical perspective of how to exist in this country - without destroying it. We are overrun with feral plants animals, we propagate ridiculous farming practises in the wrong places. When we're not experiencing the biggest fires in history we have the biggest floods in history. We are in the middle of the biggest extinction wave on the planet, Australia is loosing more native species that anywhere on earth, and the biggest since the mass extinction events of millions of years ago. as a discrete group of citizens our First nations brotehrs and sisters suffer the worst health, education and wealth outcomes - there must be a reason why an entire specific people are faring so much worse than the rest of us. Not to mention the rate First Nations kids are locked up. We're doing it wrong in so many places. Why not try something else? Why not give the people who have cared for this country for tens of thousands of years, a voice at the table.

But it's not a simple proposition.

Statements like this will not help;

Comparing it to the 1967 Referendum, he says the question put to the Australian people then was simple: "Do Aboriginals belong in this country? Yes, or no?"
"Should Aboriginal people be allowed to speak? That is the simple question before us," Mr Hamm says of the upcoming referendum on the Voice.

My immediate response, with my right-wing hat on, is Aboriginal people are allowed to speak. So if that's the question - job done.

[Lugs]

Man I'm so nervous about this referendum.
To my mind nobody talks to the real advantage which is to have a people representing a philosophical perspective of how to exist in this country - without destroying it. We are overrun with feral plants animals, we propagate ridiculous farming practises in the wrong places. When we're not experiencing the biggest fires in history we have the biggest floods in history. We are in the middle of the biggest extinction wave on the planet, Australia is loosing more native species that anywhere on earth, and the biggest since the mass extinction events of millions of years ago. as a discrete group of citizens our First nations brotehrs and sisters suffer the worst health, education and wealth outcomes - there must be a reason why an entire specific people are faring so much worse than the rest of us. Not to mention the rate First Nations kids are locked up. We're doing it wrong in so many places. Why not try something else? Why not give the people who have cared for this country for tens of thousands of years, a voice at the table.

But it's not a simple proposition.

Statements like this will not help;

My immediate response, with my right-wing hat on, is Aboriginal people are allowed to speak. So if that's the question - job done.

I'm not nervous about the referendum. It deserves to be voted down, and I firmly believe that it will. I wish no ill will to my fellow countrymen, and specifically, no ill will to my many indigenous friends, some of whom firmly identify as Australian first, indigenous second.

It beggars belief that nearly 100 years on we have proponents of a race-based constitution. It is anathema to all that we are and should aspire to be. Race-based legislation is ugly. It should have died in the bunker with Hitler.

[Hallam]

Barely a nice word to be had?

Can you please show me where I've been anywhere left of centre when the scale is nasty to the left, nice to the right. I've been attacked, I've been mocked, I've been maligned. You guys need to look in the mirror, and at the posts made by "your guys" on the thread. Show me where I've thrown anything but facts at one of you, without prior provocation, eg by Mr Hallam and his slur.

What's interesting about Malaysia? It fits Mr Hallam's "membership criteria". ie it has been a member of the Commonwealth since 1957, from memory.

Would you rather another Commonwealth country without a treaty with the indigenous people? Does Papua New Guinea fit the bill? It is probably worth looking at. Strong Denisovan and some cultural links too. Second worst country in the world to be a woman (ranked 162 out of 163 in the survey). Tribal initiation of boys in (some) tribes at age 7. Depending on the tribe, that initiation is either oral or anal. Women are regarded as a spiritual aberration. Shall I continue? Shall we compare the Raskal gangs of PNG with the emerging situation in the Alice?

I will put my nice hat on when you "gentlemen" stop attacking the individual and play nice when discussing politics, which is a bit of a hobby of mine. Funnily enough, I was invited to Australia Day drinks with the shadow Minister for Indigenous Affairs, at his home, but I decided to leave that one for a broader issues day. I did catch up (well, it was more than a catch up - I did a road trip to Melbourne in December) with someone who worked very closely with three recent Australian Prime Ministers. I'd been invited on a personal tour of the South Gippsland region and he was along for part of that and the drive down and back from Sydney. We, of course, discussed Albo - who at the time, I was a much stronger supporter of than I am now, as I watch his method devolve into blaming everyone else. But we also discussed Abbott, Turnbull and Morrison. I will leave that for another day, if I decide to hang around here. Hopefully you guys will learn how to debate, rather than insult.

I note with interest and more than a touch of amusement that by sheer coincidence as per his facebook feed, Ian was also on a road trip down south Gippsland way in December.

[skuthorp]

I dooo declare!! Fancy that!!

[Lugs]

Stalkers....... Was Bigfella there? What an opportunity to catch up. Maybe, just maybe, he's the one who suggested I join here. Is he still in country?

[Lugs]

Wow. Thanks for that link. Stalking sometimes pays dividends. What an interesting character. 14,000 free, delivered meals to the homeless during the first three months of the Covid lockdown. What an amazing effort. Mr Hallam, since you stalked him down, how about asking him to come in here and discuss the political issues surrounding Covid?

[WX]

Stalkers....... Was Bigfella there? What an opportunity to catch up. Maybe, just maybe, he's the one who suggested I join here. Is he still in country?

You should know, Ian.

[skuthorp]

Well it seems that the poster is who you suspect he is, and so I will not waste any more of my time with him.

Tudge at the Robodebt enquiry…….. "I don't remember" and "It wasn't my job". Actually as the minister, it was.

[WX]

Well it seems that the poster is who you suspect he is, and so I will not waste any more of my time with him.

Tudge at the Robodebt enquiry…….. "I don't remember" and "It wasn't my job". Actually as the minister, it was.

The buck stops here, applies. Tudge should be held responsible.

[Lugs]

You should know, Ian.

Are you endorsing stalking?

Seriously?

What do you think of someone stalking and allegedly exposing the identity of someone who has chosen to not expose their identity?

Mr Hallam's actions go against everything our government is trying to achieve in cyberspace.

[Lugs]

I note with interest and more than a touch of amusement that by sheer coincidence as per his facebook feed, Ian was also on a road trip down south Gippsland way in December.

Mr Hallam, what is your understanding of stalking legislation in Australia?

[Lugs]

Meanwhile, on 7:30, there is a woman complaining about the lack of housing, the lack of... blah, blah, more government investment. Hang on a minute. This is why we have a problem. There's no concept of people being responsible for their own lives. Get out and get a job, build a business, pay some taxes, make things happen. Nope.. they want handouts.

[Lugs]

The more that woman (Pat Turner) goes on, the more bizarre it becomes. So, apparently, everyone should have a government provided house. Just as a matter of interest, if everyone gets a government house, government job, etc. etc.... just who pays?

[Hallam]

Mr Hallam, what is your understanding of stalking legislation in Australia?

My understanding of Australian stalking legislation leads me to believe that as this exchange has unfolded on this forum with you a banned member rejoining the forum incognito, you have a snowballs chance in hell of pinning a stalking charge on me. For you to frame my checking your facebook feed as stalking is ridiculous, provocative and could be interpreted as passive aggressive behaviour. For you to now take this exchange in the direction you have and accuse me of stalking is a sad reflection of your state of mind. Stalking involves some overt presence of threatening behaviour and that is totally absent on my behalf. I take your question above as an implied threat. Nice work Ian!

I'm normally patient but with your prior mode of operation and now this, I cut you no slack. Get a life Ian. I have never put anyone on ignore feature but you will be the first if the direction is any further downhill. While you blabber on about people being responsible for their own lives how about being responsible for your own appalling behaviour thus far! Enough!

[WX]

Are you endorsing stalking?

Seriously?

What do you think of someone stalking and allegedly exposing the identity of someone who has chosen to not expose their identity?

Mr Hallam's actions go against everything our government is trying to achieve in cyberspace.

Whatever you reckon Ian. It's time for you to leave.