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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #27231
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Well, the law is often said to be an ass, and it’s beyond me to comment on the rights and wrongs of the legal process in this or any other case. I’ve just watched about 15 minutes helicopter footage of the car he is in, and I really do wonder if that is worth the petrol burnt.

  2. #27232
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    The man is a sleaze but then this was known when I was a kid. His most aggregious crime was shutting his eyes and shifting the abusers about to preserve the 'dignity' of the church.

  3. #27233
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I'd be interested to know the religious background of the judges. I was astonished when practising law at the influence of religion within the system.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    My understanding is that every witness pertaining to the circumstantial procedures that are supposed to have constituted grounds for doubt are members of the Catholic Church. The High Court has committed a serious disservice to the most disadvantaged and vulnerable members of our community today. It's a disgrace.

    Rick

  4. #27234
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    This, to me is the central issue and outcome of the high court's decision.

    With respect to the findings and recommendations of the royal commission in the final report that:

    [quote] 52. State and territory governments should ensure that the necessary legislative provisions and physical resources are in place to allow for the pre recording of the entirety of a witness’s evidence in child sexual abuse prosecutions. This should include both:a. in summary and indictable matters, the use of a prerecorded investigative interview as some or all of the witness’s evidence in chief b. in matters tried on indictment, the availability of pre-trial hearings to record all ofa witness’s evidence, including cross-examination and re-examination, so that the evidence is taken in the absence of the jury and the witness need not participate in the trial itself. [end quote]

    this high court ruling has effectively negated the validity of these recommendations from the royal commission.
    I am red hot angry at the betrayal this legal finding confirms. The power of legal proceedings has been handed back to the perpetrators yet again. This is perhaps the greatest failure of our legal system to deliver justice to people who were abused as minors. A major purpose of the legal recommendations of the commission was to establish a legitimate legal process for the evaluation of evidence where there are no other witnesses other than the perp and the victim. Now the High court virtually throws it out as an acceptable legally valid process! In many respects this was the first test case that involved a high level of public awareness. Does this set a precedent for future court proceedings and negate any precedent established with Pells previous, now upturned conviction?

    Have a royal commission then re abuse the abused, re traumatise the bruised and by implication, vindicate the corruption within the Catholic church!

    Last edited by Hallam; 04-07-2020 at 01:18 AM.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
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  5. #27235
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Supreme Court blocks Wisconsin from extending absentee voting deadline


    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...bsentee-voting

    uh, people will die..

  6. #27236
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    [QUOTE=Hallam;6144516]This, to me is the central issue and outcome of the high court's decision.

    With respect to the findings and recommendations of the royal commission in the final report that:

    52. State and territory governments should ensure that the necessary legislative provisions and physical resources are in place to allow for the pre recording of the entirety of a witness’s evidence in child sexual abuse prosecutions. This should include both:a. in summary and indictable matters, the use of a prerecorded investigative interview as some or all of the witness’s evidence in chief b. in matters tried on indictment, the availability of pre-trial hearings to record all ofa witness’s evidence, including cross-examination and re-examination, so that the evidence is taken in the absence of the jury and the witness need not participate in the trial itself. [end quote]

    this high court ruling has effectively negated the validity of these recommendations from the royal commission.
    I am red hot angry at the betrayal this legal finding confirms. The power of legal proceedings has been handed back to the perpetrators yet again. This is perhaps the greatest failure of our legal system to deliver justice to people who were abused as minors. A major purpose of the legal recommendations of the commission was to establish a legitimate legal process for the evaluation of evidence where there are no other witnesses other than the perp and the victim. Now the High court virtually throws it out as an acceptable legally valid process! In many respects this was the first test case that involved a high level of public awareness. Does this set a precedent for future court proceedings and negate any precedent established with Pells previous, now upturned conviction?

    Have a royal commission then re abuse the abused, re traumatise the bruised and by implication, vindicate the corruption within the Catholic church!

    That's right. The Wood Royal Commission in NSW made similar recommendations. Now the High Court has declared all of that invalid. We have a High Court that actively supports CSA, in effect.

    Rick

  7. #27237
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Generally speaking, when the high court overturns a finding of a lower court, we accept it as the ultimate umpire, don’t we? Not really understanding the details, but whatever the merits of the case, there must have been some deficiency in the way it was tried or prosecuted, wouldn’t you think? Surely high court judges don’t operate on their personal prejudices do they? Then again, remember all the gossip about Lionel Murphy. Maybe they’re all at it.

  8. #27238
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    I don't think they're necessarily prejudiced. I think they see themselves as purists, in a legal sense. I think the law as they see it is flawed and they consistently make decisions that work against community interest. E.g., the citizenship nonsense, the Malaysian refugee option, the Pell disaster.

    Rick

  9. #27239
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    PS If the 'lower courts' had actually challenged the other witnesses, the appeal may not have been upheld. The High Court could have ordered a retrial to hear that.

    Rick

  10. #27240
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Is there any likelihood of another case from a different victim like the man on the ABC the other night?

  11. #27241
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    [QUOTE=RFNK;6144539]
    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    This, to me is the central issue and outcome of the high court's decision.

    With respect to the findings and recommendations of the royal commission in the final report that:



    That's right. The Wood Royal Commission in NSW made similar recommendations. Now the High Court has declared all of that invalid. We have a High Court that actively supports CSA, in effect.

    Rick
    By CSA you mean...... ?
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  12. #27242
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    Quote Originally Posted by shamus View Post
    Is there any likelihood of another case from a different victim like the man on the ABC the other night?
    Apparently there are civil cases that he might face and yes, there could be further charges, as I understand it. Unless he gets whisked off to Vatican City again.

    Rick

  13. #27243
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    [QUOTE=Hallam;6144567]
    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post

    By CSA you mean...... ?
    Child sexual assault.

    Rick

  14. #27244
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Lawyers are guns for hire, judges are lawyers……….. the church can afford to hire the top guns……….

  15. #27245
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    Worth remembering the submission made on Pell's behalf that this was just a vanilla case of sexual penetration. Nothing to see here.

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  16. #27246
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Vanilla sex is a term used by people who tend not to indulge in it.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  17. #27247
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I don't even know what that is.

    In effect, as I understand it, the High Court gave equal weight to the testimony of a bunch of church employees and volunteers and the victim. The `unchallenged witnesses'' testimony were recollections of usual practices at the cathedral, some 30 or so years ago. The assumption being that if Pell had altered his usual habits at all, on that day, all those people would have remembered it. It's patently ridiculous but the prosecutors never challenged it, apparently. So a lifetime of pain, another ruined life, and the ruined lives of all those who were close to the dead victim and the forever-traumatised victim, are ignored, again, because the prosecutors didn't tick that box. Kafka-esque.

    Rick

  18. #27248
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    Vanilla means plain, ordinary, unexceptional. So the stated position of the Catholic church in Australia is that church leaders raping young boys is plain, ordinary, unexceptional.

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  19. #27249
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    As in SNAFU Phil?………………...

  20. #27250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Worth remembering the submission made on Pell's behalf that this was just a vanilla case of sexual penetration. Nothing to see here.
    Absolutely!
    His believers will gloss over it.

    FWIW - my father in law, a barrister who does a lot of work in the high court, said from the begining that the case against Pell was 'technically' unsound. He is sure Pell is guilty, but believes he should never have been convicted on the case offered.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  21. #27251
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    A bit like Lindy. I'm sure it wasn't a Dingo, but with no real evidence she should not have been convicted.

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  22. #27252
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I reckon it was a dingo.

    Rick

  23. #27253
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Absolutely!
    His believers will gloss over it.

    FWIW - my father in law, a barrister who does a lot of work in the high court, said from the begining that the case against Pell was 'technically' unsound. He is sure Pell is guilty, but believes he should never have been convicted on the case offered.
    So, why does he think Pell is guilty?

    Rick

  24. #27254
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    A statement by an unknown individual on the doors of St Patrick's East Melbourne......

    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  25. #27255
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    So, why does he think Pell is guilty?

    Rick
    I shouldn't put words in his mouth, but I expect he believed he's guilty for the same reason a jury and an appeals court did.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  26. #27256
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Absolutely!
    His believers will gloss over it.

    FWIW - my father in law, a barrister who does a lot of work in the high court, said from the begining that the case against Pell was 'technically' unsound. He is sure Pell is guilty, but believes he should never have been convicted on the case offered.
    Exactly, he got off on a technical point, nothing to do with justice.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  27. #27257
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    One of the victims was very sanguine about it. Better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent be imprisoned and all that.

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  28. #27258
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    Grafiti was sprayed on the dors of St Pat's Cathedral………….

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...08-p54icq.html

  29. #27259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    One of the victims was very sanguine about it. Better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent be imprisoned and all that.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    The other 'alleged' victim is dead by his own hand some time ago.

  30. #27260
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    I shouldn't put words in his mouth, but I expect he believed he's guilty for the same reason a jury and an appeals court did.
    Every one forgets the first trial where it is believed that the jury was split in favour of Pell.
    The law requires a unanimous or 11-to-one verdict, and anything else results in a mistrial.

  31. #27261
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimJ View Post
    Every one forgets the first trial where it is believed that the jury was split in favour of Pell.
    The law requires a unanimous or 11-to-one verdict, and anything else results in a mistrial.
    Anyone remember Joh's 'trial' where a juror was a Joh supporter plant?

  32. #27262
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimJ View Post
    Every one forgets the first trial where it is believed that the jury was split in favour of Pell.
    The law requires a unanimous or 11-to-one verdict, and anything else results in a mistrial.
    I don't know anyone who `forgets' the first trial.

    Rick

  33. #27263
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    ‘New Zealand is not just flattening the curve..it’s squashing it” says Washington Post.
    All the world loves Jacinda, please don’t think I’m an exception. They’re doing very well on deaths, but on spread they are not yet doing as well as Australia. There are a number of ways to look at it, but the simplest are these. I’ve used cases per million from WorldinData for both countries.
    Both Aus and NZ began lockdown measures about 23 March, with NZ moving to its tighter level 4 controls just a couple of days after its first setting of level 3. On 23 March Australia had 67 cases per million population and NZ had 21, one third as many. Now Australia is on 233 cases per million and NZ is on 200 so much nearer equal. Plainly, we’re actually doing better in that period, at least. Another way to look at it..NZ has 26% more cases per million than 5 days ago, whereas Aust has only 14% more. I chose 5 days, since that was given early on as the median time to show symptoms, but the contrast is similar for any other period of days.
    The strategy in both countries does seem to be working, and good luck to us all.

  34. #27264
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    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  35. #27265
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    Quote Originally Posted by shamus View Post
    ‘New Zealand is not just flattening the curve..it’s squashing it” says Washington Post.
    All the world loves Jacinda, please don’t think I’m an exception. They’re doing very well on deaths, but on spread they are not yet doing as well as Australia. There are a number of ways to look at it, but the simplest are these. I’ve used cases per million from WorldinData for both countries.
    Both Aus and NZ began lockdown measures about 23 March, with NZ moving to its tighter level 4 controls just a couple of days after its first setting of level 3. On 23 March Australia had 67 cases per million population and NZ had 21, one third as many. Now Australia is on 233 cases per million and NZ is on 200 so much nearer equal. Plainly, we’re actually doing better in that period, at least. Another way to look at it..NZ has 26% more cases per million than 5 days ago, whereas Aust has only 14% more. I chose 5 days, since that was given early on as the median time to show symptoms, but the contrast is similar for any other period of days.
    The strategy in both countries does seem to be working, and good luck to us all.
    The way the testing's being done in both countries means that no one really knows how many cases there really are or what the distribution might be. Until the number of tests reaches the point where properly distributed random testing can be implemented across a representative sample of areas, we won't know which strategies are most effective. Even then, we'll probably never know how many cases existed on any historical date. But, as you say, both countries are doing relatively well compared to so many others, and I also noticed NZ's apparent case numbers creeping up. I do wonder whether number of deaths is a more accurate measure than case numbers in the absence of better data. In that case, NZ is doing particularly well, even compared to Australia. On the other hand, NZ didn't offload a ship full of passengers infected with the virus into its largest city, so even that figure may be skewed.

    Rick

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