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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #25796
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    So how many women a week are being murderd by their partners in Australia currently? And how many are bashed but not fatally in the same time periods? And how many are terrorised by their partners but never say anything for the sake of their children's safety?
    We do not seem to have any answer to that murderous problem either.

  2. #25797
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    So how many women a week are being murderd by their partners in Australia currently? And how many are bashed but not fatally in the same time periods? And how many are terrorised by their partners but never say anything for the sake of their children's safety?
    We do not seem to have any answer to that murderous problem either.
    Perhaps if you read the links you wouldn't need to ask questions like that. Here's a sample

    Results: The overall rate of head injury due to assault was 60.4 per 100 000 population (95% CI, 59.8–60.9). The rate among the Indigenous population was 854.8 per 100 000 (95% CI, 841.0–868.9), 21 times that among the non-Indigenous population (40.7 per 100 000; 95% CI, 40.2–41.2). Most Indigenous (88%) and non-Indigenous (83%) victims of head injury due to assault were aged between 15 and 44 years. The peak incidence among the Indigenous population was in the 30–34-year age group, whereas that among the non-Indigenous population was in the 20–24-year age group. Indigenous females experienced 69 times the injury rate experienced by non-Indigenous females.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  3. #25798
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Gary, no one is suggesting that Australian Aboriginals “just get over it” as far as I am aware. And I really don’t know about comparing the atrocities of the Nazi concentration camps and Pol Pot with the tragedies of Aboriginal Australian history: depending what you read, an estimated 190,000 population decline to Aust' Aboriginals through introduced diseases and massacres over 140 years; estimated 11 million jews over 12 years; over 1 million from Pol Pot over 4 years.
    A massacre of a few thousand is no different to the massacre of millions to the victims, or the survivors. The result is still an echo down the generations that follow.
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  4. #25799
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    So how many women a week are being murderd by their partners in Australia currently? And how many are bashed but not fatally in the same time periods? And how many are terrorised by their partners but never say anything for the sake of their children's safety?
    We do not seem to have any answer to that murderous problem either.
    https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/dome...ntents/summary
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  5. #25800
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    If you ever witnessed, on a horrifically regular basis, Aboriginal women being bashed ferociously with star pickets, river gum branches, rocks, bricks and the like, leaving them with broken arms from trying to defend themselves and atrocious head and shoulder injuries looking like victims of a war zone, you’d not consider including it in the same discussion as domestic assault throughout Australia. Two dreadfully tragic issues but deserving of completely different discussions.
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  6. #25801
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Perhaps if you read the links you wouldn't need to ask questions like that. Here's a sample

    Results: The overall rate of head injury due to assault was 60.4 per 100 000 population (95% CI, 59.8–60.9). The rate among the Indigenous population was 854.8 per 100 000 (95% CI, 841.0–868.9), 21 times that among the non-Indigenous population (40.7 per 100 000; 95% CI, 40.2–41.2). Most Indigenous (88%) and non-Indigenous (83%) victims of head injury due to assault were aged between 15 and 44 years. The peak incidence among the Indigenous population was in the 30–34-year age group, whereas that among the non-Indigenous population was in the 20–24-year age group. Indigenous females experienced 69 times the injury rate experienced by non-Indigenous females.
    It would be interesting to see how that compared to female skeletal injury in say England over the same period of time. The reality is that women, no matter the culture or race get the short end of the stick when it comes to violence.
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  7. #25802
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    If you ever witnessed, on a horrifically regular basis, Aboriginal women being bashed ferociously with star pickets, river gum branches, rocks, bricks and the like, leaving them with broken arms from trying to defend themselves and atrocious head and shoulder injuries looking like victims of a war zone, you’d not consider including it in the same discussion as domestic assault throughout Australia. Two dreadfully tragic issues but deserving of completely different discussions.
    I can agree with that but there are a lot of aborigines out there not bashing their women who are trying to find answers and trying to be heard.
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  8. #25803
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    It would be interesting to see how that compared to female skeletal injury in say England over the same period of time. The reality is that women, no matter the culture or race get the short end of the stick when it comes to violence.
    That question was answered... in a broad sense
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  9. #25804
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I can agree with that but there are a lot of aborigines out there not bashing their women who are trying to find answers and trying to be heard.
    ABSOFRIGGINLUTELY!!!! which is why it’s so bloody annoying to hear everyone talking as if they can solve the incredible multitude of issues and challenges surrounding Indigenous Australia when they come from different societies, different regions, different language groups, different social demographics, different levels of mixed blood from different cultural backgrounds, different educations, different upbringings, different experiences and so on...as if they were all in the same boat and could be solved by that "magic motherhood statement” .......or something.
    Larks

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  10. #25805
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    ABSOFRIGGINLUTELY!!!! which is why it’s so bloody annoying to hear everyone talking as if they can solve the incredible multitude of issues and challenges surrounding Indigenous Australia when they come from different societies, different regions, different language groups, different social demographics, different levels of mixed blood from different cultural backgrounds, different educations, different upbringings, different experiences and so on...as if they were all in the same boat and could be solved by that "magic motherhood statement” .......or something.
    Why am I left with the feeling that you are the only one who read what jacinta nampijinpa price wrote in the SBS piece?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  11. #25806
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Gary, no one is suggesting that Australian Aboriginals “just get over it” as far as I am aware. And I really don’t know about comparing the atrocities of the Nazi concentration camps and Pol Pot with the tragedies of Aboriginal Australian history: depending what you read, an estimated 190,000 population decline to Aust' Aboriginals through introduced diseases and massacres over 140 years; estimated 11 million jews over 12 years; over 1 million from Pol Pot over 4 years.
    On a per capita basis the genocide of Aborigines is actually worse. The ABS is stating that approximately 780,000 people lived here pre-settlement. By 1900 that number was 92,000. That’s seven eighths of the population wiped out. I find the statistic completely disgusting.
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  12. #25807
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    ABSOFRIGGINLUTELY!!!! which is why it’s so bloody annoying to hear everyone talking as if they can solve the incredible multitude of issues and challenges surrounding Indigenous Australia when they come from different societies, different regions, different language groups, different social demographics, different levels of mixed blood from different cultural backgrounds, different educations, different upbringings, different experiences and so on...as if they were all in the same boat and could be solved by that "magic motherhood statement” .......or something.
    Of course big symbolic gestures aren’t going to solve these multitude of problems, but they are a foundational act upon which all the other solutions depend. As I said we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
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  13. #25808
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Ultimately I’m saying that a whole range of policies, actions and gestures of recognition and reconciliation need to occur to make real and positive differences to Aboriginal Australia: from grass root solutions for specific communities and individuals all the way up to statements of principles as well as broader strategic thinking. Like any other successful endeavour that involves a large and varied segment of population.

    That’s why, for instance, John Setka has been rightfully marginalised from the Labor Party, as a statement of principle in line with the broader compact that women are generally the oppressed victims of domestic violence and that men aren’t “losing rights” as society tackles the issue of domestic violence. To say that men are “losing rights” is to only contribute to the very culture of toxic masculinity that encourages the perpetration of this awful crime. Words, high profile public words, matter and they can either promulgate solutions or perpetuate problems.
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  14. #25809
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Think Alan Jones baiting the mob to go and riot in Cronulla. On that act alone I think Jones should have been taken off the air permanently.
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  15. #25810
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    It would be interesting to see how that compared to female skeletal injury in say England over the same period of time. The reality is that women, no matter the culture or race get the short end of the stick when it comes to violence.
    The study is from 1999 to 2005, suggests a strong comparison to other indigenous populations in other developed nations and doesn’t support Ian’s bleating about domestic violence being prevalent in pre-colonial times and that European settlement was some kind of godsend for Aboriginal women. A more racist trope is hard to imagine.
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  16. #25811
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    The study is from 1999 to 2005, suggests a strong comparison to other indigenous populations in other developed nations and doesn’t support Ian’s bleating about domestic violence being prevalent in pre-colonial times and that European settlement was some kind of godsend for Aboriginal women. A more racist trope is hard to imagine.
    The other one........

    https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/benn...inal-violence/

    You really do need to work on your comprehension skills
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  17. #25812
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Of course dear. You go work on your racism skills, so that the smashing of a 780,000 population down to 92,000 over 112 years can be justified.
    On a warm Tuesday night last month, upstairs in the Sydney Room of the City Tattersalls Club, Gary Johns, once Paul Keating’s special minister of state but these days better cast as a John Howard man, announced the arrival of “the integrationist school of thought”. The occasion was the launch of a book, Liberating Aboriginal People from Violence, by Stephanie Jarrett. An unflinching critique of traditional culture, the book follows on from Johns’ own donor-funded attack on remote communities, Aboriginal Self-determination: The whiteman’s dream. And, Johns, Jarrett’s mentor and editor, half-joked, didn’t two books make a school?Jarrett, slender in black and half the average age of her audience, took the lectern. She was from Adelaide, her accent slightly posh. In a tremulous voice, she spoke passionately about the suffering of Aboriginal women at the hands of men who claimed traditional custom as a defence. Bess Nungarrayi Price, the Aboriginal politician from Alice Springs, was there to attest that she bore “too many scars on my body to deny that Aboriginal people are violent. We have problems with our traditional culture.” “Payback” punishment, polygamy and child brides had no place in modern society – the cultural excuses had to stop, Price pleaded; the white man’s law should prevail.
    This was relatively safe ground. But the mostly white-haired white men clamped to seats around the room weren’t here to nod along to a spot of ebony-and-ivory feminism. Price’s line of thinking was a mere jumping-off point: Jarrett’s thesis is that self-determination is to blame for maintaining “pre-contact, traditional culture [as] the key cause of today’s high rates of indigenous violence”. In other words, and let’s not mince them: once a savage, always a savage – at least when he’s left to his own devices.
    Those who’d come to hear this message included many stalwarts of the conservative cause. Stooped in a corner in his pale fawn suit, notebook poised, was Peter Coleman, the Spectator columnist, looking like Tom Wolfe caught in a downpour. Holding forth in the centre of the room was Keith Windschuttle, the revisionist amateur historian – what Stolen Generation? – and editor of Quadrant. There were also a few women, including, less predictably, Rachael Kohn, host of Radio National’s The Spirit of Things. A reviewer sitting next to me expressed admiration for Jarrett’s book, though its recommendation that remote Aboriginal communities, outstations and homelands be abandoned made her squirm a little.
    Jarrett’s publisher is Connor Court, a bush operation supported by right-wing think-tanks. Its biggest-selling author remains Ian Plimer, the climate sceptic whose tract Heaven and Earth once so excited Tony Abbott. Like Plimer, who is not a climate scientist, Jarrett, who is not an anthropologist, doesn’t mind annexing alien academic territory.
    Jarrett told those gathered that her epiphany came after watching a film, State of Shock. The movie tells the true story of Alwyn Peter, a Cape York man who’d killed his de facto wife in a drunken frenzy. In the landmark 1981 trial, his defence team successfully argued that the social upheaval wrought by colonisation had diminished Peter’s responsibility, and he got a light sentence. When she saw the film, Jarrett was a university tutor in politics. At first she felt very sorry for Alwyn Peter. But an Aboriginal woman had seen the movie with her. What about the woman, she asked. What about all the women? “My research changed then,” said Jarrett, her voice straining to rise above the sounds of a pan flute ensemble piping up from Pitt Street. “I realised that was what I needed to look at.”
    Her starting point for what was then her PhD was the same as that underpinning the Northern Territory Intervention: human rights – women’s rights, children’s rights – come before cultural rights. Jarrett trawled through the anthropological record to extract instances of violence against women and children. She found rich pickings. Traditional Aboriginal societies were patriarchal and harsh. Young men were often killed in tribal warfare, so those who remained claimed more wives. Young girls were promised in “skin” marriage. Hell, there was cannibalism in the far north.
    As she collected these tales of violence, especially against women, Jarrett also kept press clippings of the many horror stories coming out of remote communities. Then she put two and two together.
    “Child abuse and rape, and gang rape, also have traditional, formalised precedents,” she writes in Liberating Aboriginal People. “[Outstations] are a haven for the continuation of brutal beliefs and practices.”
    Marcia Langton, the indigenous academic and feminist, is scathing of the lay obsession with what she’s called “anthro porn”. And it’s true, people do get off on this sort of thing. The day before the launch, in an online Quadrant interview, Jarrett was asked what was the worst act of Aboriginal violence she had come across. She nominated the modern-day rape of a toddler, a depravity unrelated to traditional practice, surely.
    Today’s level of violence is hardly a continuation – missionaries and assimilation policy saw to that. It is also, for the most part, very different. Most perpetrators are drunk. Women murder women. Young men commit suicide. And Torres Strait Islanders haven’t eaten each other’s kidney fat for 150 years.
    Most observers with first-hand experience, including many of the anthropologists Jarrett quotes, accept Aboriginal leader Noel Pearson’s analysis that today’s violence in remote communities is part and parcel of a profound social breakdown wreaked by welfare dependency and alcohol abuse.
    But Jarrett insists these factors simply “exacerbate” tradition. She’s not alone in blaming the social violence in welfare-addled, grog-ravaged ghettos on the vestigial adaptations of a nomadic, animist, warrior culture – she has Germaine Greer for company, for one.
    Whereas Pearson preaches a foot-in-both-worlds philosophy, insisting his people retain pride in their culture, language and community while attaining a mainstream education, Jarrett would rather everyone hop out. Any movement to keep indigenous culture strong, she warns, worsens the alienation from the mainstream and will keep Aboriginal people “trapped in an oppressive, violent, non-Enlightenment culture”.
    Coincidentally, the Alwyn Peter case also had a seminal impact on Pearson’s thinking. He was 16 at the time of the trial, which featured the Jesuit priest Father Frank Brennan as Peter’s junior defence counsel. A key defence witness, criminologist Paul Wilson, later wrote a book, Black Death White Hands, about the case. Never before or since has anyone more baldly put the simplistic contention that the problem with black Australia was white Australia.
    But if Black Death White Hands was a jump too far, Jarrett’s book leaps all the way back. In her final chapter, she talks of a “reverse way” of looking at the problem. Whereas the Alwyn Peter case held that domestic Aboriginal violence was a symptom of disempowerment, Jarrett concludes the violence is “a sign of the failure to integrate … It is self-determination that is the main culprit and it is self-determination that should be brought to trial”.
    Last edited by Duncan Gibbs; 07-22-2019 at 02:41 PM.
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  18. #25813
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Here’s the rub: on one hand Ian uses the piece by Jacinta Nampijinpa to make the claim that Aboriginal culture and communities aren’t a big monolithic mass and subtly is required, and on the other hand he trots out Stephanie Jarrett to make the claim that Aboriginal culture is in fact a big monolithic mass of patriarchy and abuse of women. Which is it?
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  19. #25814
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    On a per capita basis the genocide of Aborigines is actually worse. The ABS is stating that approximately 780,000 people lived here pre-settlement. By 1900 that number was 92,000. That’s seven eighths of the population wiped out. I find the statistic completely disgusting.
    The reference I read in “Cultural survival" said @250,000 in 1788.
    Larks

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  20. #25815
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    On a per capita basis the genocide of Aborigines is actually worse. The ABS is stating that approximately 780,000 people lived here pre-settlement. By 1900 that number was 92,000. That’s seven eighths of the population wiped out. I find the statistic completely disgusting.
    I’ll never dispute the tragedy of Aboriginal devastation under colonialism, but of course you can present figures and stat’s any way you like to paint the picture that you want - you chose to use a figure that was actually presented along the lines of it being estimated that a population of up to 780,000 could be sustained - it didn’t say an estimated population of 780,000 existed. And yes, on a per capita basis the figures do indeed appear worse, albeit over a longer period.

    You could also present it as:
    Jews died under the Nazi’s at a rate of @917,000 per year or 25,470 per day
    Cambodians under Pol Pot at a rate of @6,944 per year or 106 per day
    Australian Aboriginals under colonialism at a rate of @2,111 per year or @ 6 per day

    Records show that the Irish, just during Cromwells campaign in Ireland, lost something like 41% of the population over 9 years - that's 618,000 at a rate of 68,666 per year or @188 per day.

    Add to that the great famine, caused directly by the British policies and practices in Ireland at the time, @1,000,000 dead over 5 years at a rate of 200,000 per year or @548 per day
    Last edited by Larks; 07-22-2019 at 05:48 PM.
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  21. #25816
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    To climb or not to climb.
    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed...SxzokWfb0AGbPc

    I would not, though I would like to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    To climb or not to climb.
    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed...SxzokWfb0AGbPc

    I would not, though I would like to.
    I don't really get the whole mountain climbing thing, let alone climbing Uluru. I may well be mistaken, but it's always seemed to me to be about a need to assert dominance. Conquering the mountain. Because it's there. That sort of manly bullsh!t. If climbing Uluru is offensive to the locals FFS leave it alone.

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    Big windy storms here overnight and bucketing down with rain. Looks like continuing for the foreseeable future. But I'm going to stay strong. Today at least. Politics yes. Religion no. Help me.

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Big windy storms here overnight and bucketing down with rain. Looks like continuing for the foreseeable future. But I'm going to stay strong. Today at least. Politics yes. Religion no. Help me.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Happy to comply.
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    and also, Byron again……...
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-...rfers/11326968
    People can be really stupid, others just venal.


    Phil, politics……
    I don't like the direction this government is going, who they target and who they give a pass to. But the electorate was lied too, scared off and bought. They re-elected them. Bill was scarier than Dutton. It's early days and I have little sympathy with the rubes. They can suck it up.

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    More journalists arrested and all they were doing was filming Adani protesters.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business...hvLSzHtMi_khW4
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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    My "coastal home" floats, so I'm good.

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    More journalists arrested and all they were doing was filming Adani protesters.
    https://www.theguardian.com/business...hvLSzHtMi_khW4
    All good international publicity, and you have to remember that this is the Queensland police, the ones that gave us dutton and were somewhat less than honest under Joh. Somer things never change.


    BTW, anyone noticed the tendency for this Gov't. to name Bills with a political slogan?
    Last edited by skuthorp; 07-22-2019 at 07:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I’ll never dispute the tragedy of Aboriginal devastation under colonialism, but of course you can present figures and stat’s any way you like to paint the picture that you want - you chose to use a figure that was actually presented along the lines of it being estimated that a population of up to 780,000 could be sustained - it didn’t say an estimated population of 780,000 existed. And yes, on a per capita basis the figures do indeed appear worse, albeit over a longer period.
    Many authors have suggested the population may have actually been much higher. When I was at RMIT a Melbourne Uni academic had presented us a study showing that Victoria alone could have had a pre-settlement population of 1 million plus.

    Australian Aboriginals under colonialism at a rate of @2,111 per year or @ 6 per day
    It would actually be 17 per day and over 6000 a year, excluding births. If births are included then that figure rises again. Whatever way you slice it it's over 80% of the population wiped out in a one hundred year period. And yes, other genocides have occurred. But this is our genocide, in our country. Therefore it's our problem to fix.

    It's that simple.

    Once we've agreed this then the rest of the pathway is clear.

    Interesting reading the family history of an individual like Fraser Anning to see how persistent racism is and how in can seep into the public discourse on how the country grapples with righting the wrongs of the past and creating a better future for all of us, Aboriginals in particular:

    His great-grandfather was Charles Cumming Stone Anning, a British pastoral squatter who migrated to Australia in the mid-19th century. Charles and several of his adult sons established several properties in the area north of Hughenden. The Anning family was involved in frontier conflicts taking land from local Aboriginal people. In response to attacks on their cattle, the Annings would attack Aboriginal campsites and capture adolescent boys who survived to use them as labour on their cattle and sheep stations. The Annings occasionally requested the services of local Native Police paramilitary units to assist in removing Aboriginal people.
    Of course people like Anning and Hanson, et al would rather this history be swept under the carpet and the narrative be about how poor and oppressed the modern white, church going person is.

    You can imagine my response.
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  31. #25826
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    My "coastal home" floats, so I'm good.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Mr Sibley put me onto some local software once that allowed me to adjust the sea level in 10m increments. Some very fine islands and bays appeared in the Tweed Valley.
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  32. #25827
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post


    BTW, anyone noticed the tendency for this Gov't. to name Bills with a political slogan?
    Yes, I thing George Orwell comes up with the names.

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  33. #25828
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Mr Sibley put me onto some local software once that allowed me to adjust the sea level in 10m increments. Some very fine islands and bays appeared in the Tweed Valley.
    Ahh well, no need to worry about global warming, just adjust the sea level down as required. Perfect.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  34. #25829
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    This in The Fin. I think they are getting worried, I heard young people are dropping out of private health cover due to costs and limited cover.
    The head of one of Australia's biggest health insurers has called on the government to abolish Medicare and make private health insurance compulsory, with the government paying the premiums of those unable to meet the costs themselves.
    In a radical solution to the growing crisis facing private health funds, Mark Fitzgibbon, managing director of NIB, said his proposal would protect the most vulnerable, while allowing the private sector to flourish
    https://www.afr.com/business/health/...0190722-p529iw
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  35. #25830
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    Jan 2002
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    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Fancy that
    The market is obviously working, and private health insurance can't cut it so…………...
    Government Socialism for Private businesses………..

    Who'd a thunk it?……...

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