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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #25166
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  2. #25167
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    A Ubi at $20000 would cost about 500 billion. You would save most of the present 200 billion that social security costs now. But it would represent about 80% of current government outlays as against 35%. Yuo’d also save the entire cost of Centrelink, if you distributed it through the tax office. It seems feasible to me, so long as it is taxable..I.e people who have a job are going to pay back a fair whack at the top rate of marginal tax anyway.
    There was an enquiry into this in my lifetime, i think early 70s where this was the major recommendation. I guess you would treat kids as dependents with something like the current parenting amounts paid.
    I think one of the major arguments against it is that governments like to have people dependent on them to garner a vote or two with increases. Employers might not like the increased independence it might grant to people they don’t treat properly, which is a plus in my view, and very lowly paid people might elect not to work at all. The best feature is that it removes the poverty trap from working, which is very real.

  3. #25168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    It’s the logical response - but don’t get me wrong, I’m interested to know more like where it’s been tried and how long it’s been running, if it’s still running, what problems it may have encountered and how they’ve overcome this problems and if there are still people who fall through the gaps and aren’t happy with it.
    You'd have to google it. I don't think there has ever been a full scale implementation. There was a trial in Finland and one in Canada. The Finland trial seems to be criticised because it didn't get unemployed people into jobs, but that's not really the point. It did make people happier. Probably a whole lot of savings in health, crime and insurance costs tight there. The Canadian trial got cut short by a conservative government.

    I think the logical response when free University education was proposed was that it would cost too much and clog universities with idiots. Maybe that's happened, maybe not. But it's more an ideological response than a logical one.

    Sometimes an apparently counterintuitive policy actually makes good sense.

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  4. #25169
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    Quote Originally Posted by shamus View Post
    A Ubi at $20000 would cost about 500 billion. You would save most of the present 200 billion that social security costs now. But it would represent about 80% of current government outlays as against 35%. Yuo’d also save the entire cost of Centrelink, if you distributed it through the tax office. It seems feasible to me, so long as it is taxable..I.e people who have a job are going to pay back a fair whack at the top rate of marginal tax anyway.
    There was an enquiry into this in my lifetime, i think early 70s where this was the major recommendation. I guess you would treat kids as dependents with something like the current parenting amounts paid.
    I think one of the major arguments against it is that governments like to have people dependent on them to garner a vote or two with increases. Employers might not like the increased independence it might grant to people they don’t treat properly, which is a plus in my view, and very lowly paid people might elect not to work at all. The best feature is that it removes the poverty trap from working, which is very real.
    That is a case where the Governments see a loss of control, the removal of one of their levers on the citizens. They never like that at all, especially conservative ones. Quite a part from that consideration, there's the 19th century middl class idea of 'the deserving or undeserving poor' where control of their lifestyle, 'for their own good' influenced a whole slew of draconian rules and regulations.

  5. #25170
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    Unfortunately also you would have to means test retirees or preferably tax super pensions over some basic level. It’s bad to asset test because it costs to do it and you end up with Centrelink back again. The big advantage of such a scheme is simply that its simple.. everyone gets it. Actually Jeff, I thing Labor is even worse at wanting leverage, it’s more or less their raison d’etre.

  6. #25171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Sometimes an apparently counterintuitive policy actually makes good sense.

    Five day working week, annual leave, healthcare and on and on.... Seems when we intuit respect, tolerance and fairness, it turns out to make sense.

    The trouble only starts when we seperate our values from our actions.



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  7. #25172
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    Don't mistake my left leaning politics as automatic support for labour Shamus. The intolerance of dissent within the alp is a basic flaw. I understand where it came from but the attitude has had it's day.

    In the NT 3 alp members were sacked for well justified dissent over the budget.

  8. #25173
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    Chinese high roller, 800 million in gambling at Crown, money laundering in reality. I'm thinking this is where much of Chinese investment is funded and that's why the Govt's, State and Federal, Labour and Lib, are facilitating the whole stinking corrupt endeavour. I bet half of Docklands is built on laundered money, not to mention the explosion of student accommodation in Melbourne's CBD. I'm not smart enough to see what sort of leverage can be used for future aims and objectives but i'm sure the Chinese already have the Governments well and truly over a barrel........
    Last edited by Hallam; 07-31-2019 at 05:41 PM.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

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  9. #25174
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    The Chinese have always loved their laundering.

  10. #25175
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    I'm with you on this Hallam, it smells to high heaven. And I think it's crooked as all get out in a particularly nasty bi-partisan corruption. I mostly have no doubt that most individual politicians are as honest as the profession allows. But the party structures are up to their necks in dodgy cash. It gives parliamentarians notional deniability and of course in the House the whips tell the members how to vote, the ghost of Nuremberg applies again.
    But it will likely require bipartisan cooperation to excise this rot, unlikely. And then there's responsibility, politically convenient deniability will not be enough. And of course it goes all the way to the top, they are all complicit except for possibly the independents.
    Will the Commonwealth Police, Asio, Defence Signals et al, creatures of Dutton's maxi ministry be willing, or able to investigate both major parties? And what would that do to the Australian body politic? Allow room for a demagog to take advantage of the confusion and anger?
    Fascinating eh?

  11. #25176
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    I note in WA the sea is on the move. Cottesloe. See tonights ABC news. Many very expensive beachside properties are at risk as sea walls are breached and the dunes consumed.
    Same problem at Inverloch in Victoria.

  12. #25177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    The Chinese have always loved their laundering.
    You didn't steal that from Rick did you?
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  13. #25178
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    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I note in WA the sea is on the move. Cottesloe. See tonights ABC news. Many very expensive beachside properties are at risk as sea walls are breached and the dunes consumed.
    Same problem at Inverloch in Victoria.
    Most of the land owners seem to be demanding the councils do something about it...which I find a bit funny. For over thirty years the scientists have been saying the ice is melting and the seas are rising and now it's starting to bite.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

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    Boats are the future real estate
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  15. #25180
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  16. #25181
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    Did you hear the one about the LibNat government that just might be introducing restrictions on negative gearing after lambasting the idea before the election?
    But wait, it's only on vacant land. There is no income from vacant land so what do you gear it against?
    Is it kite flying, or just smoke and mirrors.

  17. #25182
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    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  18. #25183
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    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I'm with you on this Hallam, it smells to high heaven. And I think it's crooked as all get out in a particularly nasty bi-partisan corruption. I mostly have no doubt that most individual politicians are as honest as the profession allows. But the party structures are up to their necks in dodgy cash. It gives parliamentarians notional deniability and of course in the House the whips tell the members how to vote, the ghost of Nuremberg applies again.
    But it will likely require bipartisan cooperation to excise this rot, unlikely. And then there's responsibility, politically convenient deniability will not be enough. And of course it goes all the way to the top, they are all complicit except for possibly the independents.
    Will the Commonwealth Police, Asio, Defence Signals et al, creatures of Dutton's maxi ministry be willing, or able to investigate both major parties? And what would that do to the Australian body politic? Allow room for a demagog to take advantage of the confusion and anger?
    Fascinating eh?
    An interesting article from the Guardian regarding the rise of the Oligarchs and their puppetts.......Australia next?

    From Trump to Johnson, nationalists are on the rise – backed by billionaire oligarchs | George Monbiot | Opinion | The Guardian
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  19. #25184
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    Money can always buy enough political quislings to pass necessary legislation and other collaborators to enact it, and when the means of information distribution are owned by the 1% it will be an uphill fight.

  20. #25185
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    Have you watched the netflix Doco 'The Great Hack'?

    Oligarchs yes but possibly manageable if transparent.
    Subversive tools and methods - sheeesh!!
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  21. #25186
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    Not yet. Wasn't aware of it but looks like a must watch. The ABC investigations a while back where pretty good.
    What gets me is why wasn't the Brexit referendum called null and void because of their intervention in the democratic process with subversive, covert, targeted, voter manipulation? Same with Trumps victory with Cambridge Analytica targeting voters in essential to win electorates etc etc??

    Data has surpassed oil as the most valuable asset in the world! No wonder the Oligarchs are all over it!!!
    Last edited by Hallam; 07-31-2019 at 09:56 PM.
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  22. #25187
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    Because it suited the winning side, Like the Chinese language instructions a polling booths in Melbourne saying that "To cast a valid vote you must put the Liberal candidate first". It's going to the Court of Disputed Returns but my bet is nothing will happen, because it's political.

  23. #25188
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    Given the illegitimacy of the process, a fitting description would be....Bastards!!
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  24. #25189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    Given the illegitimacy of the process, a fitting description would be....Bastards!!
    Remember, we are talking about Party politics and major party politicians. They HAVE to be some sort of a bought bastard to be allowed to stand. And if perchance an idealist slips through, well the whips will deal with them and they'll be disendorsed first chance the Party gets.
    And there is no such thing as ethics inside Party structures, They exist to give their MP's plausible deniability. Half a major parties rep's staff are there NOT to tell him what could be embarrassing in question time.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 08-01-2019 at 04:05 AM.

  25. #25190
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    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Remember, we are talking about Party politics and major party politicians. They HAVE to be some sort of a bought bastard to be allowed to stand. And if perchance an idealist slips through, well the whips will deal with them and they'll be disendorsed first chance the Party gets.
    And there is no such thing as ethics inside Party structures, They exist to give their MP's plausible deniability. Half a major parties rep's staff are there NOT to tell him what could be embarrassing in question time.
    Do you read the drivel you write?

  26. #25191
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    From you, that's a compliment.

  27. #25192
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    I was wondering when Ian was going to show.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  28. #25193
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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I was wondering when Ian was going to show.
    I had been tempted to ask pundit's views on the inflationary aspects associated with the utopian income proposal, but I couldn't be bothered.

    Get a job ya lazy bludgers

  29. #25194
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    Gonna be one of those really difficult decisions, let 'em starve and really create an angry mob of left behinds, or slice the pie a little differently? Not that that will be the major difficulty, we don't make anything much just dig stuff up and the money goes OS and little tax paid. We've sold the water to some crowd in a tax haven just as it's going to get scarcer, Manus and Nauru will be just the precursor. The water level will come up. Good luck with all that.

    And no I'm not depressed at all, the experiment goes on and its conclusion does not look too rosy, but we've had big resets before. Man is an adaptable beast.

  30. #25195
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    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Have you watched the netflix Doco 'The Great Hack'?

    Oligarchs yes but possibly manageable if transparent.
    Subversive tools and methods - sheeesh!!
    Just finished watching it. Among the many really disturbing aspects, the hostile polarisation that is being deliberately fostered is so evident, you can see it playing out in here in the Bilge! The next US election looks like being a war zone if nothing is done to shut down the proliferation of targeted manipulative content and 'false news'.
    .........and to what extent was data mining and targeted miss information used to aid the Liberal victory in the recent election?
    Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. Leonardo da Vinci.

    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question.

    "Freighters on the nod on the surface of the bay, One of these days we're going to sail away"
    Bruce Cockburn

  31. #25196
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    I had been tempted to ask pundit's views on the inflationary aspects associated with the utopian income proposal, but I couldn't be bothered.

    Get a job ya lazy bludgers
    And therein lies the problem.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  32. #25197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    Just finished watching it. Among the many really disturbing aspects, the hostile polarisation that is being deliberately fostered is so evident, you can see it playing out in here in the Bilge! The next US election looks like being a war zone if nothing is done to shut down the proliferation of targeted manipulative content and 'false news'.
    .........and to what extent was data mining and targeted miss information used to aid the Liberal victory in the recent election?
    And of course that is occurring, but our 'leaders' do not seem capable of changing their behaviour, or being more open, or even being civil in public. They are the architects of their own loss of respect and reputation.

  33. #25198
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    Labor has decided to embrace coal it would seem.
    t feels like the Labor Party has a new attitude when it comes to the dreaded "C" word: coal.

    Craig Kelly and Joel Fitzgibbon have had plenty of interest in their parliamentary Friends of Coal Exports group. Illustration: John ShakespeareCREDIT:
    There's been a veritable stampede to join renegade Liberal MP Craig Kelly's new buddy club: Parliamentary Friends of Coal Exports.
    Opposition frontbencher and Hunter MP Joel Fitzgibbon bolted out of the blocks, offering to co-chair the group.
    Now it can be revealed three more Labor MPs have said "I'm in" to Kelly's coal corroboree
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  34. #25199
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    Democracy in action...



    And why should they bother when the voters seem to have other priorities?

  35. #25200
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    Nothing is too good for our Chinese high rollers, even the chance to shoot wombats is on offer.
    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...STLn0YCVHAZpCA
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

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