Page 715 of 752 FirstFirst ... 215615665705714715716725 ... LastLast
Results 24,991 to 25,025 of 26292

Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #24991
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    30,747

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    And just how any of that helps people like Alice O’Keefe who had her skull stoved in by a staff picket wielded by a drunk Aboriginal male in the Todd River and then was regularly beaten and raped in the camps for the rest of her life???? Alice Okeefe was well known in Alice Springs until she died a few years ago, although she was better known as “Mad Alice” because she had suffered severe acquired brain damage which mostly presented to the public by her propensity to shed her clothes in Todd Mall on a regular basis and to defecate on the doorstep of any shop or business that she took a dislike to and to hurl abuse at tourists and locals alike......
    She had apparently once been quite an attractive young lady who had appeared in a couple of movies, including Jedda, but like so many at the time when the Indigenous prohibition laws were repealed in the 1960s after campaigning by the social do-gooders of the time (they gave them the right to drink but no-one bothered to try and educate them on the risks involved), she became one of the many creek dwelling alcoholics clinging to the fringes of humanity.

    Duncan and Jeff, for all your good intentions you are spouting the same morally superior, patronising motherhood statements that are despised by most people who live and experience the reality of what is happening in outback communities and towns because it does NO good whatsoever where it matters.

    It might make you feel all good and superior but to me it is the lazy, "someone else's fault and someone else's problem" response of the opinionated cafe latte sippers from the city who have never seen the reality and who’s education on the subject comes entirely from the ABC and other well meaning but completely narrow minded reporting, when showing the reality would be just too confrontational for the public to accept.

    'Far easier to blame white Australia and a history that cannot be changed than it is to deal with realities....

    I do not believe for a minute that anyone in Australia denies that bad shyte happened to good people after Europeans and Asians started to land in these shores. Just exactly how much more do you expect people in Australia to realise this? Have it tattooed on their foreheads, beat themselves in the face with appropriately printed confession plaques or something?

    How about looking at the real problems and trying to have an impact on them?

    This is indeed a complicated, contentious and incredibly difficult issue - or a very broad range of issues to be more precise and they are different issues in different places and societies - and that lazy arsed attitude of trying to claim that the fix lies in some magic motherhood statement shytes me to tears because it keeps getting trotted out, but I continue see and hear of the incredible damage that continues unabated every time I go back to Darwin or Alice Springs and every time I hear from friends in Alice Springs.

    don’t get me started....
    Greg, I don't think any of us are hand wringing guilt ridden do gooders but talking about it is at least better than pretending there aren't problems. As I have mentioned before I have a mate who works on remote communities out around the Tanami Desert. He oversees small infrastructure projects, like building long drop toilets etc. He can speak the language...several in fact. He doesn't judge but he does observe. Like to invasive grass that is taking over that the kangaroos won't eat. One old couple that are quite happy living in an old broken down campervan, the old bloke is one of the best workers.
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  2. #24992
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    15,477

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    Yes. Bad shyte happens like the awful fait that befell Alice O'Keefe.
    And yes, criminals need to pay for their crimes no matter what their background.

    But to change an culture requires leadership and empathy in equal measure. To help prevent violence domestic or otherwise requires those who are most likely to offend to be given a different narrative by which they can live their lives, along with all the practical measures that can help stop this waste of life. We can walk and chew gum. Our white culture broke their aboriginal culture. Smashed it to smithereens. So we should be doing things on a number of levels to help. "some magic motherhood statement shyte" is part of it: The story is complex as are the problems, but unless we acknowledge, in full, the root cause of this series complex problems this car just won't start.

    When I lived in FNQ I got to spend plenty of time with a whole variety of aboriginal and TI people. My feeling is that half were lost between two different worlds. The complex systems of kinship that previously sustained huge numbers of people had been obliterated. This needs rebuilding, and part of rebuilding it is to assess with a full and honest account of the damage that's been done to it. Without it we'll have no chance of 'closing the gap.'
    I essentially agree with most of what you have said there Duncan, but if you are going to quote me please don’t edit my quote to change the intent in so doing - it smacks of mischief and has caused more than one falling out on this forum
    Last edited by Larks; 07-22-2019 at 12:20 AM.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  3. #24993
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    15,477

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    The story is complex as are the problems, but unless we acknowledge, in full, the root cause of this series complex problems this car just won't start.
    So there’s the crux of the difficult question - and I don’t believe there is a single root cause but I do believe that laying blame on the colonisation of Australia is a red herring to identifying the cause and “closing the gap".

    One fact of reality that I don’t believe anyone can fairly dispute is that if Great Britain hadn’t claimed Australia at the time, some other world power would have and it’d be difficult to argue that the situation would be any better than it is now - probably different in some way or other and possibly even worse, but you’d still have a culture that has been overtaken, interbred and damaged irreparably regardless.

    The same thing has happened all around the world over the millennia and what has happened here in Australia is no different, just more recent.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  4. #24994
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    58,307

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Whatever Larks, Aus. could well have been colonised by the Dutch or the French or the Spanish for that matter. But the Brits got the jump, and there were rules. Ignored not so much by the Administrators that the Empire sent, but some of the free settlers and freed convicts were a collection of murders and thieves. Maybe one expects that from the ex convicts but the free settlers were at least as brutal as any ex con. Especially the corrupt ex military.
    Acknowledgement of the deeds is what is needed.
    Listening to talkback radio as I type it seems that that attitude is alive and well in Victoria today.

  5. #24995
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    18,345

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    So there’s the crux of the difficult question - and I don’t believe there is a single root cause but I do believe that laying blame on the colonisation of Australia is a red herring to identifying the cause and “closing the gap".

    One fact of reality that I don’t believe anyone can fairly dispute is that if Great Britain hadn’t claimed Australia at the time, some other world power would have and it’d be difficult to argue that the situation would be any better than it is now - probably different in some way or other and possibly even worse, but you’d still have a culture that has been overtaken, interbred and damaged irreparably regardless.

    The same thing has happened all around the world over the millennia and what has happened here in Australia is no different, just more recent.
    It means then that it falls to us to fix the problem and not Portuguese, or French, or whatever origin the dominating culture would be. It's our problem. Not anyone else's. It's our debt to Aboriginal Australia we've inherited.

    But if you don't think that colonisation and its aftermath was the root cause of much of what plagues the Aboriginal and TSI community today then we haven't much to discuss.

    Please remember Aboriginals and TSIs have only been counted as citizens for 53 years now, and even then, for decades after their lives have been more heavily regulated and interfered with than almost everyone else in this country, including government sanctioned wage thefts.

    It also seems interesting that when a group of Aboriginals put forward a way to move toward reconciliation it gets shunted off to one side, saying it's an unworkable idea, or it'll just become another bureaucracy, or a third chamber of parliament. There was a representative Aboriginal voice, but rather than reform it, ATSIC just got shut down with the stroke of a pen.

    Non-aboriginal Australia isn't doing itself any favours when we continue to ride roughshod over the indigenous communities, and ignoring what they have to say.

    It's not always a unified message, but aside from a very few voices, most of the population want the Uluru Statement to be acted upon.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  6. #24996
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    19,802

    Default

    OK, let's try this. Mea culpa. My forebears committed cultural and actual genocide against the aboriginal people of Australia. Doesn't matter that my mum and dad emigrated from NZ and the UK in the 1960s. Their forebears came here, and I've happily eaten the fruit of those that did the deeds. And I've continued, with my educated white privilege, to benefit from the destruction of Australia's first peoples, and the utter destruction, in 200 odd years, of a culture going back at least 60,000 years. The land grabs, the mining, the deliberate extermination, the missionaries, the slave labour, the rape, the stolen generation, deaths in custody. I own it, along with every other non aboriginal Australian. It's on me to fix it, to make reparation, to compensate, to understand.

    I get that, I really do. But I don't think there's a damned thing I can do. I'm better off turning out the lights at home to try to slow global warming.

    Sure I can try to keep my prejudices at bay, but like Greg, when I see a filthy drunken incoherent Aborigine coming my way in a country town, or in the city for that matter, I'm going to avoid them. And like that Magistrate I'm going to feel frustration at the behaviours by which Aboriginal people become their own worst enemies.

    There is no easy fix to it and it's a very ugly reality.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  7. #24997
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in the Golden Triangle
    Posts
    23,999

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    It means then that it falls to us to fix the problem and not Portuguese, or French, or whatever origin the dominating culture would be. It's our problem. Not anyone else's. It's our debt to Aboriginal Australia we've inherited.

    But if you don't think that colonisation and its aftermath was the root cause of much of what plagues the Aboriginal and TSI community today then we haven't much to discuss.

    Please remember Aboriginals and TSIs have only been counted as citizens for 53 years now, and even then, for decades after their lives have been more heavily regulated and interfered with than almost everyone else in this country, including government sanctioned wage thefts.

    It also seems interesting that when a group of Aboriginals put forward a way to move toward reconciliation it gets shunted off to one side, saying it's an unworkable idea, or it'll just become another bureaucracy, or a third chamber of parliament. There was a representative Aboriginal voice, but rather than reform it, ATSIC just got shut down with the stroke of a pen.

    Non-aboriginal Australia isn't doing itself any favours when we continue to ride roughshod over the indigenous communities, and ignoring what they have to say.

    It's not always a unified message, but aside from a very few voices, most of the population want the Uluru Statement to be acted upon.
    What a load of pap. You really should educate yourself. Here... let the ABC help youL

    Legal changes achieved by the referendum

    The referendum of May 27, 1967 approved two amendments to the constitution relating to Indigenous Australians.
    Section 51 (xxvi) was altered and section 127 was deleted. More than 90 per cent of the nation and a majority in all states voted yes.
    Before the referendum, the Commonwealth could not make special laws for Aboriginal people (except in the territories) because they were governed by state laws.
    Removing a reference to Aboriginal people in section 51 (xxvi) meant the Commonwealth gained the power to make special laws for Aboriginal people.
    Constitutional law expert Professor Anne Twomey, in a 2017 opinion article in The Australian, cited native title laws as an example of this.
    Meanwhile, section 127 of the constitution had excluded Aboriginal people from being counted for constitutional purposes; they were not included in the populations of states and territories for the purposes of allocating federal seats in Parliament.
    Nor were they counted for the purposes of calculating certain Commonwealth grants. The removal of section 127 allowed Aboriginal people to be counted for these purposes.
    Professor Twomey noted that this did not prevent Aboriginal people from being counted for other purposes — they were counted in the first Commonwealth census in 1911 (except in remote areas).
    Also, by 1967, Indigenous Australians were already able to vote in federal and state elections.


    You might want to read the rest of that, so that you don't look so damn silly in future.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-...rendum/9550650
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  8. #24998
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    18,345

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    OK, let's try this. Mea culpa. My forebears committed cultural and actual genocide against the aboriginal people of Australia. Doesn't matter that my mum and dad emigrated from NZ and the UK in the 1960s. Their forebears came here, and I've happily eaten the fruit of those that did the deeds. And I've continued, with my educated white privilege, to benefit from the destruction of Australia's first peoples, and the utter destruction, in 200 odd years, of a culture going back at least 60,000 years. The land grabs, the mining, the deliberate extermination, the missionaries, the slave labour, the rape, the stolen generation, deaths in custody. I own it, along with every other non aboriginal Australian. It's on me to fix it, to make reparation, to compensate, to understand.

    I get that, I really do. But I don't think there's a damned thing I can do. I'm better off turning out the lights at home to try to slow global warming.
    There's lost of things we can do. An official version of your first paragraph would sit well with people who are still alive and had their wages thieved, their childhoods stolen, their lives destroyed by regulation and policing prejudice. The Uluru Statement provides a singular suggestion that having some constitutionally convened way of listening will be a terrific thing to do from an Aboriginal perspective, speaking of which...

    Sure I can try to keep my prejudices at bay, but like Greg, when I see a filthy drunken incoherent Aborigine coming my way in a country town, or in the city for that matter, I'm going to avoid them. And like that Magistrate I'm going to feel frustration at the behaviours by which Aboriginal people become their own worst enemies.
    The one I sat down with in Cooktown was pretty pissed, but he was good for a chin-wag, and I didn't care. It was my opportunity for the listening. I learned that his dad had been brought up in an almost completely traditional way before he was moved onto the mission with his family, and that this bloke had been initiated by his dad prior to the move to the mission, whereupon he was separated from his family and didn't see them for years. When the reuniting did happen they all felt incredibly sad and like strangers. And he said saw the benefit in all the new wizbang stuff he was able to access, and then looked at his longneck and shrugged wistfully. He was less pissed after I had a two hour chat with him and he said it was nice to just talk with a fella.

    There is no easy fix to it and it's a very ugly reality.
    Listening and not turning away is the easiest thing we can do. Maybe that's why the Uluru Statement suggests that the Federal Government lead by example. But could your really imagine ScoMo doing anything close?
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  9. #24999
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    19,802

    Default

    No

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  10. #25000
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    18,345

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I essentially agree with most of what you have said there Duncan, but if you are going to quote me please don’t edit my quote to change the intent in so doing - it smacks of mischief and has caused more than one falling out on this forum
    Apologies, I miss-read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I do not believe for a minute that anyone in Australia denies that bad shyte happened to good people after Europeans and Asians started to land in these shores. Just exactly how much more do you expect people in Australia to realise this? Have it tattooed on their foreheads, beat themselves in the face with appropriately printed confession plaques or something?

    How about looking at the real problems and trying to have an impact on them?
    There are actually a vast pool of the Australian population that either don't know the horrific history, or don't care, or have a whole set of preconceived ideas about who Aboriginal people are, or a combination of all three.

    Having a national conversation that really seeps into our collective consciousness would help. I've met people who don't even know who the PM is FFS!

    Out of interest have you read Pascoe's book? I thoroughly recommend it if you haven't.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  11. #25001
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    30,747

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I find it interesting that Australian aborigines are expected to just get over it but other races are allowed to remember and build memorials to past events. We probably have more memorials and museums to the Jewish Holocaust than we do to aboriginal massacres. The Poles and the Germans turned several concentration camps into museums. Cambodia has museums to highlight the nightmare of Pol Pot. We remember the horrors of Japanese POW camps and we maintain the cemeteries to our fallen in a number of countries. NZ even has a treaty and people just love a good haka...but look what happened when Alan Goode did a little dance on the field.
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  12. #25002
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in the Golden Triangle
    Posts
    23,999

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    Apologies, I miss-read it.


    There are actually a vast pool of the Australian population that either don't know the horrific history, or don't care, or have a whole set of preconceived ideas about who Aboriginal people are, or a combination of all three.

    Having a national conversation that really seeps into our collective consciousness would help. I've met people who don't even know who the PM is FFS!

    Out of interest have you read Pascoe's book? I thoroughly recommend it if you haven't.
    I know your first para is in reference to something Larks wrote... but yes, you have shown yourself to be in that vast pool who don't know, with your erroneous comments in relation to the 1967 referendum. You really should read that ABC FactCheck link I provided. It'd be nice to see yourself actually inform yourself.

    Then, speaking of that horrific history - let's take that back to pre-colonial days, when up to 44% of aboriginal women's skulls show signs of trauma. Significant trauma. Is that not horrific? Let's get the whole story right, eh?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  13. #25003
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    58,307

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    It's about time that the truth came out. Heres the ones we know about in Victoria from 1836 to 1853.

  14. #25004
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    30,747

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    I know your first para is in reference to something Larks wrote... but yes, you have shown yourself to be in that vast pool who don't know, with your erroneous comments in relation to the 1967 referendum. You really should read that ABC FactCheck link I provided. It'd be nice to see yourself actually inform yourself.

    Then, speaking of that horrific history - let's take that back to pre-colonial days, when up to 44% of aboriginal women's skulls show signs of trauma. Significant trauma. Is that not horrific? Let's get the whole story right, eh?
    You have a link for that?
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  15. #25005
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in the Golden Triangle
    Posts
    23,999

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    You have a link for that?
    I provided it a week or two back IIRC... but here's some current stats - read it and weep

    https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2008/...non-indigenous

    I will look up the pre-colonial history later on if I'm feeling up to it
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  16. #25006
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    30,747

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    I provided it a week or two back IIRC... but here's some current stats - read it and weep

    https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2008/...non-indigenous

    I will look up the pre-colonial history later on if I'm feeling up to it
    Thanks for that, I guess we can add it to the general litany of domestic horror that doesn't rate as terror and therefore doesn't attract vast sums of funding like the fear of Muslims does.
    https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/dome...ntents/summary
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  17. #25007
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    15,477

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I find it interesting that Australian aborigines are expected to just get over it but other races are allowed to remember and build memorials to past events. We probably have more memorials and museums to the Jewish Holocaust than we do to aboriginal massacres. The Poles and the Germans turned several concentration camps into museums. Cambodia has museums to highlight the nightmare of Pol Pot. We remember the horrors of Japanese POW camps and we maintain the cemeteries to our fallen in a number of countries. NZ even has a treaty and people just love a good haka...but look what happened when Alan Goode did a little dance on the field.
    Gary, no one is suggesting that Australian Aboriginals “just get over it” as far as I am aware. And I really don’t know about comparing the atrocities of the Nazi concentration camps and Pol Pot with the tragedies of Aboriginal Australian history: depending what you read, an estimated 190,000 population decline to Aust' Aboriginals through introduced diseases and massacres over 140 years; estimated 11 million jews over 12 years; over 1 million from Pol Pot over 4 years.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  18. #25008
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in the Golden Triangle
    Posts
    23,999

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Here you are Gary. If tradition is followed, the messenger will be shot:

    Paleopathologist Stephen Webb in 1995 published his analysis of 4500 individuals’ bones from mainland Australia going back 50,000 years. (Priceless bone collections at the time were being officially handed over to Aboriginal communities for re-burial, which stopped follow-up studies).[15]Webb found highly disproportionate rates of injuries and fractures to women’s skulls, with the injuries suggesting deliberate attack and often attacks from behind, perhaps in domestic squabbles. In the tropics, for example, female head-injury frequency was about 20-33%, versus 6.5-26% for males.
    The most extreme results were on the south coast, from Swanport and Adelaide, with female cranial trauma rates as high as 40-44% — two to four times the rate of male cranial trauma. In desert and south coast areas, 5-6% of female skulls had three separate head injuries, and 11-12% had two injuries.
    Web could not rule out women-on-women attacks but thought them less probable. The high rate of injuries to female heads was the reverse of results from studies of other peoples.[16] His findings, according to anthropologist Peter Sutton, confirm that serious armed assaults were common in Australia over thousands of years prior to conquest. [17]

    https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/benn...inal-violence/
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  19. #25009
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    58,307

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    So how many women a week are being murderd by their partners in Australia currently? And how many are bashed but not fatally in the same time periods? And how many are terrorised by their partners but never say anything for the sake of their children's safety?
    We do not seem to have any answer to that murderous problem either.

  20. #25010
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in the Golden Triangle
    Posts
    23,999

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    So how many women a week are being murderd by their partners in Australia currently? And how many are bashed but not fatally in the same time periods? And how many are terrorised by their partners but never say anything for the sake of their children's safety?
    We do not seem to have any answer to that murderous problem either.
    Perhaps if you read the links you wouldn't need to ask questions like that. Here's a sample

    Results: The overall rate of head injury due to assault was 60.4 per 100 000 population (95% CI, 59.8–60.9). The rate among the Indigenous population was 854.8 per 100 000 (95% CI, 841.0–868.9), 21 times that among the non-Indigenous population (40.7 per 100 000; 95% CI, 40.2–41.2). Most Indigenous (88%) and non-Indigenous (83%) victims of head injury due to assault were aged between 15 and 44 years. The peak incidence among the Indigenous population was in the 30–34-year age group, whereas that among the non-Indigenous population was in the 20–24-year age group. Indigenous females experienced 69 times the injury rate experienced by non-Indigenous females.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  21. #25011
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    30,747

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Gary, no one is suggesting that Australian Aboriginals “just get over it” as far as I am aware. And I really don’t know about comparing the atrocities of the Nazi concentration camps and Pol Pot with the tragedies of Aboriginal Australian history: depending what you read, an estimated 190,000 population decline to Aust' Aboriginals through introduced diseases and massacres over 140 years; estimated 11 million jews over 12 years; over 1 million from Pol Pot over 4 years.
    A massacre of a few thousand is no different to the massacre of millions to the victims, or the survivors. The result is still an echo down the generations that follow.
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  22. #25012
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    30,747

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    So how many women a week are being murderd by their partners in Australia currently? And how many are bashed but not fatally in the same time periods? And how many are terrorised by their partners but never say anything for the sake of their children's safety?
    We do not seem to have any answer to that murderous problem either.
    https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/dome...ntents/summary
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  23. #25013
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    15,477

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    If you ever witnessed, on a horrifically regular basis, Aboriginal women being bashed ferociously with star pickets, river gum branches, rocks, bricks and the like, leaving them with broken arms from trying to defend themselves and atrocious head and shoulder injuries looking like victims of a war zone, you’d not consider including it in the same discussion as domestic assault throughout Australia. Two dreadfully tragic issues but deserving of completely different discussions.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  24. #25014
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    30,747

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Perhaps if you read the links you wouldn't need to ask questions like that. Here's a sample

    Results: The overall rate of head injury due to assault was 60.4 per 100 000 population (95% CI, 59.8–60.9). The rate among the Indigenous population was 854.8 per 100 000 (95% CI, 841.0–868.9), 21 times that among the non-Indigenous population (40.7 per 100 000; 95% CI, 40.2–41.2). Most Indigenous (88%) and non-Indigenous (83%) victims of head injury due to assault were aged between 15 and 44 years. The peak incidence among the Indigenous population was in the 30–34-year age group, whereas that among the non-Indigenous population was in the 20–24-year age group. Indigenous females experienced 69 times the injury rate experienced by non-Indigenous females.
    It would be interesting to see how that compared to female skeletal injury in say England over the same period of time. The reality is that women, no matter the culture or race get the short end of the stick when it comes to violence.
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  25. #25015
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    30,747

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    If you ever witnessed, on a horrifically regular basis, Aboriginal women being bashed ferociously with star pickets, river gum branches, rocks, bricks and the like, leaving them with broken arms from trying to defend themselves and atrocious head and shoulder injuries looking like victims of a war zone, you’d not consider including it in the same discussion as domestic assault throughout Australia. Two dreadfully tragic issues but deserving of completely different discussions.
    I can agree with that but there are a lot of aborigines out there not bashing their women who are trying to find answers and trying to be heard.
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  26. #25016
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in the Golden Triangle
    Posts
    23,999

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    It would be interesting to see how that compared to female skeletal injury in say England over the same period of time. The reality is that women, no matter the culture or race get the short end of the stick when it comes to violence.
    That question was answered... in a broad sense
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  27. #25017
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    15,477

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I can agree with that but there are a lot of aborigines out there not bashing their women who are trying to find answers and trying to be heard.
    ABSOFRIGGINLUTELY!!!! which is why it’s so bloody annoying to hear everyone talking as if they can solve the incredible multitude of issues and challenges surrounding Indigenous Australia when they come from different societies, different regions, different language groups, different social demographics, different levels of mixed blood from different cultural backgrounds, different educations, different upbringings, different experiences and so on...as if they were all in the same boat and could be solved by that "magic motherhood statement” .......or something.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  28. #25018
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in the Golden Triangle
    Posts
    23,999

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    ABSOFRIGGINLUTELY!!!! which is why it’s so bloody annoying to hear everyone talking as if they can solve the incredible multitude of issues and challenges surrounding Indigenous Australia when they come from different societies, different regions, different language groups, different social demographics, different levels of mixed blood from different cultural backgrounds, different educations, different upbringings, different experiences and so on...as if they were all in the same boat and could be solved by that "magic motherhood statement” .......or something.
    Why am I left with the feeling that you are the only one who read what jacinta nampijinpa price wrote in the SBS piece?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  29. #25019
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    18,345

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Gary, no one is suggesting that Australian Aboriginals “just get over it” as far as I am aware. And I really don’t know about comparing the atrocities of the Nazi concentration camps and Pol Pot with the tragedies of Aboriginal Australian history: depending what you read, an estimated 190,000 population decline to Aust' Aboriginals through introduced diseases and massacres over 140 years; estimated 11 million jews over 12 years; over 1 million from Pol Pot over 4 years.
    On a per capita basis the genocide of Aborigines is actually worse. The ABS is stating that approximately 780,000 people lived here pre-settlement. By 1900 that number was 92,000. That’s seven eighths of the population wiped out. I find the statistic completely disgusting.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  30. #25020
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    18,345

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    ABSOFRIGGINLUTELY!!!! which is why it’s so bloody annoying to hear everyone talking as if they can solve the incredible multitude of issues and challenges surrounding Indigenous Australia when they come from different societies, different regions, different language groups, different social demographics, different levels of mixed blood from different cultural backgrounds, different educations, different upbringings, different experiences and so on...as if they were all in the same boat and could be solved by that "magic motherhood statement” .......or something.
    Of course big symbolic gestures aren’t going to solve these multitude of problems, but they are a foundational act upon which all the other solutions depend. As I said we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  31. #25021
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    18,345

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Ultimately I’m saying that a whole range of policies, actions and gestures of recognition and reconciliation need to occur to make real and positive differences to Aboriginal Australia: from grass root solutions for specific communities and individuals all the way up to statements of principles as well as broader strategic thinking. Like any other successful endeavour that involves a large and varied segment of population.

    That’s why, for instance, John Setka has been rightfully marginalised from the Labor Party, as a statement of principle in line with the broader compact that women are generally the oppressed victims of domestic violence and that men aren’t “losing rights” as society tackles the issue of domestic violence. To say that men are “losing rights” is to only contribute to the very culture of toxic masculinity that encourages the perpetration of this awful crime. Words, high profile public words, matter and they can either promulgate solutions or perpetuate problems.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  32. #25022
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    18,345

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Think Alan Jones baiting the mob to go and riot in Cronulla. On that act alone I think Jones should have been taken off the air permanently.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  33. #25023
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    18,345

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    It would be interesting to see how that compared to female skeletal injury in say England over the same period of time. The reality is that women, no matter the culture or race get the short end of the stick when it comes to violence.
    The study is from 1999 to 2005, suggests a strong comparison to other indigenous populations in other developed nations and doesn’t support Ian’s bleating about domestic violence being prevalent in pre-colonial times and that European settlement was some kind of godsend for Aboriginal women. A more racist trope is hard to imagine.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  34. #25024
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in the Golden Triangle
    Posts
    23,999

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    The study is from 1999 to 2005, suggests a strong comparison to other indigenous populations in other developed nations and doesn’t support Ian’s bleating about domestic violence being prevalent in pre-colonial times and that European settlement was some kind of godsend for Aboriginal women. A more racist trope is hard to imagine.
    The other one........

    https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/benn...inal-violence/

    You really do need to work on your comprehension skills
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  35. #25025
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    18,345

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Of course dear. You go work on your racism skills, so that the smashing of a 780,000 population down to 92,000 over 112 years can be justified.
    On a warm Tuesday night last month, upstairs in the Sydney Room of the City Tattersalls Club, Gary Johns, once Paul Keating’s special minister of state but these days better cast as a John Howard man, announced the arrival of “the integrationist school of thought”. The occasion was the launch of a book, Liberating Aboriginal People from Violence, by Stephanie Jarrett. An unflinching critique of traditional culture, the book follows on from Johns’ own donor-funded attack on remote communities, Aboriginal Self-determination: The whiteman’s dream. And, Johns, Jarrett’s mentor and editor, half-joked, didn’t two books make a school?Jarrett, slender in black and half the average age of her audience, took the lectern. She was from Adelaide, her accent slightly posh. In a tremulous voice, she spoke passionately about the suffering of Aboriginal women at the hands of men who claimed traditional custom as a defence. Bess Nungarrayi Price, the Aboriginal politician from Alice Springs, was there to attest that she bore “too many scars on my body to deny that Aboriginal people are violent. We have problems with our traditional culture.” “Payback” punishment, polygamy and child brides had no place in modern society – the cultural excuses had to stop, Price pleaded; the white man’s law should prevail.
    This was relatively safe ground. But the mostly white-haired white men clamped to seats around the room weren’t here to nod along to a spot of ebony-and-ivory feminism. Price’s line of thinking was a mere jumping-off point: Jarrett’s thesis is that self-determination is to blame for maintaining “pre-contact, traditional culture [as] the key cause of today’s high rates of indigenous violence”. In other words, and let’s not mince them: once a savage, always a savage – at least when he’s left to his own devices.
    Those who’d come to hear this message included many stalwarts of the conservative cause. Stooped in a corner in his pale fawn suit, notebook poised, was Peter Coleman, the Spectator columnist, looking like Tom Wolfe caught in a downpour. Holding forth in the centre of the room was Keith Windschuttle, the revisionist amateur historian – what Stolen Generation? – and editor of Quadrant. There were also a few women, including, less predictably, Rachael Kohn, host of Radio National’s The Spirit of Things. A reviewer sitting next to me expressed admiration for Jarrett’s book, though its recommendation that remote Aboriginal communities, outstations and homelands be abandoned made her squirm a little.
    Jarrett’s publisher is Connor Court, a bush operation supported by right-wing think-tanks. Its biggest-selling author remains Ian Plimer, the climate sceptic whose tract Heaven and Earth once so excited Tony Abbott. Like Plimer, who is not a climate scientist, Jarrett, who is not an anthropologist, doesn’t mind annexing alien academic territory.
    Jarrett told those gathered that her epiphany came after watching a film, State of Shock. The movie tells the true story of Alwyn Peter, a Cape York man who’d killed his de facto wife in a drunken frenzy. In the landmark 1981 trial, his defence team successfully argued that the social upheaval wrought by colonisation had diminished Peter’s responsibility, and he got a light sentence. When she saw the film, Jarrett was a university tutor in politics. At first she felt very sorry for Alwyn Peter. But an Aboriginal woman had seen the movie with her. What about the woman, she asked. What about all the women? “My research changed then,” said Jarrett, her voice straining to rise above the sounds of a pan flute ensemble piping up from Pitt Street. “I realised that was what I needed to look at.”
    Her starting point for what was then her PhD was the same as that underpinning the Northern Territory Intervention: human rights – women’s rights, children’s rights – come before cultural rights. Jarrett trawled through the anthropological record to extract instances of violence against women and children. She found rich pickings. Traditional Aboriginal societies were patriarchal and harsh. Young men were often killed in tribal warfare, so those who remained claimed more wives. Young girls were promised in “skin” marriage. Hell, there was cannibalism in the far north.
    As she collected these tales of violence, especially against women, Jarrett also kept press clippings of the many horror stories coming out of remote communities. Then she put two and two together.
    “Child abuse and rape, and gang rape, also have traditional, formalised precedents,” she writes in Liberating Aboriginal People. “[Outstations] are a haven for the continuation of brutal beliefs and practices.”
    Marcia Langton, the indigenous academic and feminist, is scathing of the lay obsession with what she’s called “anthro porn”. And it’s true, people do get off on this sort of thing. The day before the launch, in an online Quadrant interview, Jarrett was asked what was the worst act of Aboriginal violence she had come across. She nominated the modern-day rape of a toddler, a depravity unrelated to traditional practice, surely.
    Today’s level of violence is hardly a continuation – missionaries and assimilation policy saw to that. It is also, for the most part, very different. Most perpetrators are drunk. Women murder women. Young men commit suicide. And Torres Strait Islanders haven’t eaten each other’s kidney fat for 150 years.
    Most observers with first-hand experience, including many of the anthropologists Jarrett quotes, accept Aboriginal leader Noel Pearson’s analysis that today’s violence in remote communities is part and parcel of a profound social breakdown wreaked by welfare dependency and alcohol abuse.
    But Jarrett insists these factors simply “exacerbate” tradition. She’s not alone in blaming the social violence in welfare-addled, grog-ravaged ghettos on the vestigial adaptations of a nomadic, animist, warrior culture – she has Germaine Greer for company, for one.
    Whereas Pearson preaches a foot-in-both-worlds philosophy, insisting his people retain pride in their culture, language and community while attaining a mainstream education, Jarrett would rather everyone hop out. Any movement to keep indigenous culture strong, she warns, worsens the alienation from the mainstream and will keep Aboriginal people “trapped in an oppressive, violent, non-Enlightenment culture”.
    Coincidentally, the Alwyn Peter case also had a seminal impact on Pearson’s thinking. He was 16 at the time of the trial, which featured the Jesuit priest Father Frank Brennan as Peter’s junior defence counsel. A key defence witness, criminologist Paul Wilson, later wrote a book, Black Death White Hands, about the case. Never before or since has anyone more baldly put the simplistic contention that the problem with black Australia was white Australia.
    But if Black Death White Hands was a jump too far, Jarrett’s book leaps all the way back. In her final chapter, she talks of a “reverse way” of looking at the problem. Whereas the Alwyn Peter case held that domestic Aboriginal violence was a symptom of disempowerment, Jarrett concludes the violence is “a sign of the failure to integrate … It is self-determination that is the main culprit and it is self-determination that should be brought to trial”.
    Last edited by Duncan Gibbs; 07-22-2019 at 02:41 PM.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •