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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #24396
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    More like like left over Victorian sensibilities I reckon Greg. You can bet that many of those making that decision were quaking lest they also be unmasked. The Lords in particular in regard to the Brit. parliament at the time.
    Sadly such was the law at the time Jeff - from the Buggery Act starting back in Henry VIII’s time, so well pre-Victorian. Turing was chemically castrated as an alternative to prison for breaking the law of the day.
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  2. #24397
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Meantime the G2 is over, donald and Lee have agreed to disagree, I get the feeling that our number has been called, assessed and discarded. Pine Gap being the only, and very important, lever and the US confident that this Aussie government won't touch it.

    (and G2 was not a mistake)

    And it seems Dutton is up to his old RW tricks, a "lunch" being scheduled for late July.
    Seems the old phrase "The voters get the government they deserve" is confirmed.

    BTW, Re my #25180
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/at-osa...huawei-demands
    Last edited by skuthorp; 06-29-2019 at 07:07 PM.

  3. #24398
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Enough with the insults Duncan - “blithe idiocy” is continuing to look for something to get angry about instead reading and comprehending before responding ..... (unless you are trying to suggest that the Catholic Church controls the courts in the UK.....??)
    No I’m suggesting that John shouldn’t make idiotic statements about the very well documented history of violence visited upon homosexuals, including burnings, torture, right up to Turing’s chemical castration and the still unsolved murders of gay men in Sydney as recently as 1989 as a “lying history.” That’s insulting!!!
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  4. #24399
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. He signed a contract that clearly stated restrictions on behaviour and he broke it.
    Show me where he bullied, harassed or discriminated against another rugby player. I suspect the court may find that indeed it was he who was discriminated, harassed and bullied by RA.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  5. #24400
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    No I’m suggesting that John shouldn’t make idiotic statements about the very well documented history of violence visited upon homosexuals, including burnings, torture, right up to Turing’s chemical castration and the still unsolved murders of gay men in Sydney as recently as 1989 as a “lying history.” That’s insulting!!!
    You can make anything sound common if you pick a few extreme examples and make bold statements as though you’ve calmly assessed the whole of the data.

    It’s like witch burnings. Happened in bursts, nearly exclusively among Protestants, and yet the way it’s usually presented you’d think it was common, and Catholic. And no, I’m not saying it never happened among Catholics. Read what I actually wrote, please.

    The same thing is done with sexual abuse by Catholic priests. The media constantly choose the tiny, and more importantly disproportionately low, cases of abuse of girls to report and describe, when over 80% of the victims were male. Every Catholic who saw it - and I did - knew it was a homosexual problem. There’s no bias here, we saw it. None of us thought our sisters were at risk, because they bl**dy weren’t. WE were.

    And it wasn’t pedophilia, it was hebephilia. The bulk of the cases were post pubescent males. THOSE CASES are what made it common, after Vatican 2 in the early ‘sixties. Again, look at the data. It looks like a bell curve, climbing sharply to a huge peak from the early ‘sixties into the ‘seventies.

    The data is available, both USA and Australia. Look it up.

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  6. #24401
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I'll get in early here....


    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  7. #24402
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    It’s like witch burnings. Happened in bursts, nearly exclusively among Protestants, and yet the way it’s usually presented you’d think it was common, and Catholic. And no, I’m not saying it never happened among Catholics. Read what I actually wrote, please.
    Apologies. I missed the 'catholic' bit. But it still has gruesome history that cannot be dismissed and involved lots of public burnings:

    When the Roman Empire came under Christian rule, all male homosexual activity was increasingly repressed, often on pain of death. In 342 CE, the Christian emperors Constantius and Constans declared same-sex marriage to be illegal. Shortly after, in the year 390 CE, emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be publicly burned alive. Emperor Justinian I (527–565 CE) made homosexuals a scapegoat for problems such as "famines, earthquakes, and pestilences."

    Laws and codes prohibiting homosexual practice were in force in Europe from the fourth to the twentieth centuries, and Muslim countries have had similar laws from the beginnings of Islam in the seventh century up to and including the present day. Abbasid Baghdad, under the Caliph Al-Hadi (785–786 CE), punished homosexuality with death.


    During the Middle Ages, the Kingdom of France and the City of Florence also instated the death penalty. In Florence, a young boy named Giovanni di Giovanni (1350–1365?) was castrated and burned between the thighs with a red-hot iron by court order under this law. These punishments continued into the Renaissance, and spread to the Swiss canton of Zürich. Knight Richard von Hohenberg (died 1482) was burned at the stake together with his lover, his young squire, during this time. In France, French writer Jacques Chausson (1618–1661) was also burned alive for attempting to seduce the son of a nobleman.


    In 17th century Malta, there was harsh prejudice and laws towards those who were found guilty or speak openly of being involved in same-sex activity. English voyager and author William Lithgow, writing in March 1616, says a Spanish soldier and a Maltese teenage boy were publicly burnt to ashes for confessing to have practiced sodomy together. As a consequence, and from fear of a similar fate, about a hundred males involved in same-sex prostitution sailed to Sicily the following day. This episode, published abroad by a foreign writer, is the most detailed account of LGBT life during the rule of the Order. It represents that homosexuality was still a taboo, but a widespread practice, an open secret, and LGBT-related information was suppressed.
    Maybe the more recent history of the Catholic Church is a bit more forgiving, but that's not to say it wasn't actively trying to stamp out consensual same sex acts, all whilst protecting paedophiles amongst the priesthood.

    When it comes to violence and oppression of the LGBTQI community I doubt any major institution that existed prior to 1980, other than a very few, didn't have blood on its hands, and to pretend any of them didn't is to preach idiocy.

    I'm sorry John, but the history of the world is littered with the corpses of homosexuals in all four corners.
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  8. #24403
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    [snip]... when over 80% of the victims were male. Every Catholic who saw it - and I did - knew it was a homosexual problem. There’s no bias here, we saw it. None of us thought our sisters were at risk, because they bl**dy weren’t. WE were.

    And it wasn’t pedophilia, it was hebephilia. The bulk of the cases were post pubescent males. THOSE CASES are what made it common, after Vatican 2 in the early ‘sixties. Again, look at the data. [...]
    Jesus Mary and Joseph, John!!!!!!

    Are you actually for real?

    Child abuse is child abuse is child abuse. Call it paedophilia, hebephilia, or whatever. Children taken from their mothers. Priests abusing both boys and girls. Whatever!

    To blame pedophilia/hebephilia on homosexuality is ALSO an act of idiocy. And insulting to boot. I was abused as a child and I can tell you my abusers all had big piles of heterosexual porn in their possession.

    What about Sean Ross Abbey? The Catholic Church asserting its dominion over the private lives of people has an horrific history, again littered with corpses.

    Sure, there are many fine priests and nuns and there is much good work done by the Catholic Church, but to minimise, or dismiss the horrors committed in the name of the church is to trivialise the shocking experiences of tens of thousands of victims, if not more, over the years.

    The Catholic Church basically gave license to the conquistadors to wipe out whole peoples in South and Central America.
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  9. #24404
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Well Aquininan has outed himself again as what we have known for some time he is. An apologist for the biggest collections of fraud ever perpetrated over several thousand years. And in particular in this case the christian franchise business.
    But we do it to ourselves, there is abundant evidence that the con men prosper and our species are suckers for it.

    But even as an unbeliever, make no mistake I have no argument with anyone's faith in an overarching power. Only the unauthorised franchises. And I do find it baffling that so many seem to need an agent to tell them what their god said. If ever there was an opportunity for corruption that is the doozy of them all.

  10. #24405
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Show me where he bullied, harassed or discriminated against another rugby player. I suspect the court may find that indeed it was he who was discriminated, harassed and bullied by RA.
    It states has no place in rugby, it does not state player. It says “treat everyone “.
    As I said freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
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  11. #24406
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    John, you have heard of the Inquisition haven’t you? Operated up to around 1830 I believe.
    And to say all paedophile priests were homosexual is just an obscene insult to the victims.
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    It states has no place in rugby, it does not state player. It says “treat everyone “.
    As I said freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
    He didn't do it on the rugby field or at a rugby event. Rugby Australia doesn't and didn't ever own him 24 hours a day.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  13. #24408
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    He didn't do it on the rugby field or at a rugby event. Rugby Australia doesn't and didn't ever own him 24 hours a day.
    Look I really don’t care, he went public with a very unwise statement and paid the price. I could take offence with his claim i was as an atheist going to hell. However being an atheist it’s probably the most pointless threat a person could make to me.
    He took his prejudices to the public area and got a thumbs down, that’s life.
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  14. #24409
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Look I really don’t care, he went public with a very unwise statement and paid the price. I could take offence with his claim i was as an atheist going to hell. However being an atheist it’s probably the most pointless threat a person could make to me.
    He took his prejudices to the public area and got a thumbs down, that’s life.
    Yes... those who don't care, don't stand up for the right to freedom - we've seen them before. 1933.

    I think that what he says stinks and he's a nutter for believing that rubbish.... BUT, I fully support his right to say it. If he's not able to say it, it's not a free country.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  15. #24410
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cath...al_abuse_cases

    [Gay priests and homosexualityEdit

    Rome's Congregation for Catholic Education issued an official document, the Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders (2005). The document has attracted criticism based on an interpretation that the document implies that homosexuality is associated with pedophilia and ephebophilia.[17]
    In a statement, read out by Archbishop Silvano Maria Tomasi in 2009, the Holy See stated that the majority of Catholic clergy who had committed acts of sexual abuse against under 18 year olds should not be viewed as pedophiles, but as homosexuals.[18] The statement said that rather than pedophilia, "it would be more correct to speak of ephebophilia, being a homosexual attraction to adolescent males."[19] The move angered many gay rights organizations and sex abuse victims groups, who claimed it was an attempt by the Vatican to redefine the Church's past problems with pedophilia as problems with homosexuality.[20]
    According to the John Jay Report 80.9% of the alleged abuse victims in the United States were male.[21] This fact led Catholic League's William Donohue, to opine: "The conventional wisdom maintains there is a pedophilia crisis in the Catholic Church; I maintain it has been a homosexual crisis all along."[22] Margaret Smith, a John Jay College criminologist who worked on the report, pointed out that it is “an unwarranted conclusion” to assert that the majority of priests who abused male victims are gay. Though “the majority of the abusive acts were homosexual in nature [...] participation in homosexual acts is not the same as sexual identity as a gay man.” She further stated that "the idea of sexual identity [should] be separated from the problem of sexual abuse. ...[A]t this point, we do not find a connection between homosexual identity and the increased likelihood of subsequent abuse from the data that we have right now.”[23]
    Another researcher, Louis Schlesinger, argued that the main problem was pedophilia or ephebophilia, not sexual orientation and claimed that some men who are married to adult women are attracted to adolescent males.[24]
    “It's important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior,” said Karen Terry, a second researcher. “Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity.” Terry said factors such as greater access to boys is one reason for the skewed ratio. Smith also raised the analogy of prison populations where homosexual behavior is common even though the prisoners are not necessarily homosexuals, or cultures where men are rigidly segregated from women until adulthood, and homosexual activity is accepted and then ceases after marriage.[23]
    Analyzing a number of studies, Gregory M. Herek, a psychology professor at the University of California at Davis, concluded: “The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. ...Many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.”[25]
    In an interview with CNN, James Cantor, Editor-in-Chief of Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment said, "It's quite solidly shown in the scientific literature that there is absolutely no association between being a gay man and being a pedophile."[26]
    Michael S. Rose, in his Goodbye, Good Men![27] book on the "contrived" shortage of Catholic priests, is the leading advocate of the theory that heterosexual seminarians are preferentially denied acceptance to seminary over homosexual ones and that this has set up a gay culture in some parts of the Catholic Church which in turn leads to clerical ephebophilia. This is counter to research that suggests otherwise. All victims in the John Jay report were minors, the "vast majority" age 13 or younger, considered pre-pubescent by the American Psychiatric Association.[28] Research on pedophilia in general shows a majority of abusers identify themselves as heterosexual.[29][30][self-published source] Additionally the John Jay report noted that "the abuse decreased as more gay priests began serving the church."[31]
    In 2018, Cardinal Müller, former doctrinal chief in charge of clerical abuse of minors, affirmed that "it is part of the crisis that one does not wish to see the true causes and covers them up with the help of propaganda phrases of the homosexual lobby."[32] In a new report, Dr. Paul Sullins examined measures of the share of homosexual Catholic priests and the incidence and victim gender of minor sex abuse victims by Catholic priests from 1950 to 2001 in the United States. The statistical analysis shows that more homosexual men in the priesthood was strongly correlated with more overall abuse and more boys abused compared to girls.[33][34]

    [/QUOTE]
    The blame on homosexual priests raises a number of questions in itself given the church’s stance on homosexuality.
    A simple question is why were there any homosexual priests in the first place?
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  16. #24411
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cath...al_abuse_cases

    [Gay priests and homosexualityEdit

    Rome's Congregation for Catholic Education issued an official document, the Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders (2005). The document has attracted criticism based on an interpretation that the document implies that homosexuality is associated with pedophilia and ephebophilia.[17]
    In a statement, read out by Archbishop Silvano Maria Tomasi in 2009, the Holy See stated that the majority of Catholic clergy who had committed acts of sexual abuse against under 18 year olds should not be viewed as pedophiles, but as homosexuals.[18] The statement said that rather than pedophilia, "it would be more correct to speak of ephebophilia, being a homosexual attraction to adolescent males."[19] The move angered many gay rights organizations and sex abuse victims groups, who claimed it was an attempt by the Vatican to redefine the Church's past problems with pedophilia as problems with homosexuality.[20]
    According to the John Jay Report 80.9% of the alleged abuse victims in the United States were male.[21] This fact led Catholic League's William Donohue, to opine: "The conventional wisdom maintains there is a pedophilia crisis in the Catholic Church; I maintain it has been a homosexual crisis all along."[22] Margaret Smith, a John Jay College criminologist who worked on the report, pointed out that it is “an unwarranted conclusion” to assert that the majority of priests who abused male victims are gay. Though “the majority of the abusive acts were homosexual in nature [...] participation in homosexual acts is not the same as sexual identity as a gay man.” She further stated that "the idea of sexual identity [should] be separated from the problem of sexual abuse. ...[A]t this point, we do not find a connection between homosexual identity and the increased likelihood of subsequent abuse from the data that we have right now.”[23]
    Another researcher, Louis Schlesinger, argued that the main problem was pedophilia or ephebophilia, not sexual orientation and claimed that some men who are married to adult women are attracted to adolescent males.[24]
    “It's important to separate the sexual identity and the behavior,” said Karen Terry, a second researcher. “Someone can commit sexual acts that might be of a homosexual nature but not have a homosexual identity.” Terry said factors such as greater access to boys is one reason for the skewed ratio. Smith also raised the analogy of prison populations where homosexual behavior is common even though the prisoners are not necessarily homosexuals, or cultures where men are rigidly segregated from women until adulthood, and homosexual activity is accepted and then ceases after marriage.[23]
    Analyzing a number of studies, Gregory M. Herek, a psychology professor at the University of California at Davis, concluded: “The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. ...Many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children.”[25]
    In an interview with CNN, James Cantor, Editor-in-Chief of Sexual Abuse: A Journal of Research and Treatment said, "It's quite solidly shown in the scientific literature that there is absolutely no association between being a gay man and being a pedophile."[26]
    Michael S. Rose, in his Goodbye, Good Men![27] book on the "contrived" shortage of Catholic priests, is the leading advocate of the theory that heterosexual seminarians are preferentially denied acceptance to seminary over homosexual ones and that this has set up a gay culture in some parts of the Catholic Church which in turn leads to clerical ephebophilia. This is counter to research that suggests otherwise. All victims in the John Jay report were minors, the "vast majority" age 13 or younger, considered pre-pubescent by the American Psychiatric Association.[28] Research on pedophilia in general shows a majority of abusers identify themselves as heterosexual.[29][30][self-published source] Additionally the John Jay report noted that "the abuse decreased as more gay priests began serving the church."[31]
    In 2018, Cardinal Müller, former doctrinal chief in charge of clerical abuse of minors, affirmed that "it is part of the crisis that one does not wish to see the true causes and covers them up with the help of propaganda phrases of the homosexual lobby."[32] In a new report, Dr. Paul Sullins examined measures of the share of homosexual Catholic priests and the incidence and victim gender of minor sex abuse victims by Catholic priests from 1950 to 2001 in the United States. The statistical analysis shows that more homosexual men in the priesthood was strongly correlated with more overall abuse and more boys abused compared to girls.[33][34]
    (snipped a bit)

    UNIX - I fully support your right to use it, but if that's how it formats stuff for presentation on a public forum, I think its nuts.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  17. #24412
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    It states has no place in rugby, it does not state player. It says “treat everyone “.
    As I said freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.
    If Folau was a Muslim and he said the things he said, Alan Jones, Jackie Lambi, Pauline Hanson et al would be screaming blue murder about Sharia Law.

    When Bill Shorten attended a dinner and there was a Muslim cleric who had said similar things to Folau, the right wing of this country went nuts calling for Shorten to step down because he found himself in the same room as this douchebag.

    How many of these idiots came to the defence of Yassmin Abdel-Magied and her rights to free speech? None of them. Not a one. Perversely probably ALL of them attacked her and effectively drove her from this country.

    Now we have a 'Christian' douchebag and it's all "I defend his right, blah, blah, friggin' blah!!!" The sheer hypocrisy is sickening, but not at all surprising.

    Very, very strong language warning (ears the are offended by multiple F-bombs please DO NOT click on this link):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX1b_bU7lwI

    Nails it IMHO.
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  18. #24413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    If Folau was a Muslim and he said the things he said, Alan Jones, Jackie Lambi, Pauline Hanson et al would be screaming blue murder about Sharia Law.

    When Bill Shorten attended a dinner and there was a Muslim cleric who had said similar things to Folau, the right wing of this country went nuts calling for Shorten to step down because he found himself in the same room as this douchebag.

    How many of these idiots came to the defence of Yassmin Abdel-Magied and her rights to free speech? None of them. Not a one. Perversely probably ALL of them attacked her and effectively drove her from this country.

    Now we have a 'Christian' douchebag and it's all "I defend his right, blah, blah, friggin' blah!!!" The sheer hypocrisy is sickening, but not at all surprising.

    Very, very strong language warning (ears the are offended by multiple F-bombs please DO NOT click on this link):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX1b_bU7lwI

    Nails it IMHO.
    Stay on topic. Stay calm. Stay focused. Don't be rude.... it isn't allowed on this forum.

    Did Folau say anything illegal?

    If so, what?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Stay on topic. Stay calm. Stay focused. Don't be rude.... it isn't allowed on this forum.

    Did Folau say anything illegal?

    If so, what?
    ...snort...

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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cath...al_abuse_cases

    The blame on homosexual priests raises a number of questions in itself given the church’s stance on homosexuality.
    A simple question is why were there any homosexual priests in the first place?
    It isn’t “blame”, it’s a description of fact.

    Why were there priests like that? Because John XXIII decided in 1960 to accomodate the Church to liberal ideology, dropped the rule against men with a tendency to that sin from being priests or religious, and they flooded in. Then the rate of sexual abuse sky-rocketed.

    So, no liberalism, tiny problem.

    I don’t hate them, and neither does the Church. It’s merely fact and sensible policy based on fact.

    Regards,
    John.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Longino View Post
    ...snort...
    You remind me of the bloke who was tackled by the cops with coke still on his nose. Claimed it wasn't his.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    Apologies. I missed the 'catholic' bit. But it still has gruesome history that cannot be dismissed and involved lots of public burnings:


    Maybe the more recent history of the Catholic Church is a bit more forgiving, but that's not to say it wasn't actively trying to stamp out consensual same sex acts, all whilst protecting paedophiles amongst the priesthood.

    When it comes to violence and oppression of the LGBTQI community I doubt any major institution that existed prior to 1980, other than a very few, didn't have blood on its hands, and to pretend any of them didn't is to preach idiocy.

    I'm sorry John, but the history of the world is littered with the corpses of homosexuals in all four corners.
    No, this is cherrypicked history, and even then, look what the author found:

    In Florence, a young boy named Giovanni di Giovanni (1350–1365?) was castrated and burned between the thighs with a red-hot iron by court order under this law. These punishments continued into the Renaissance, and spread to the Swiss canton of Zürich. Knight Richard von Hohenberg (died 1482) was burned at the stake together with his lover, his young squire, during this time. In France, French writer Jacques Chausson (1618–1661) was also burned alive for attempting to seduce the son of a nobleman.


    In 17th century Malta, there was harsh prejudice and laws towards those who were found guilty or speak openly of being involved in same-sex activity. English voyager and author William Lithgow, writing in March 1616, says a Spanish soldier and a Maltese teenage boy were publicly burnt to ashes...

    It’s the Ancient Greek ideal.

    Same thing in the liberal atmosphere of the post-Vatican 2 church. Look at the detailed USA data. And here’s another fact, a lot of it was consensual. No, not in any way justifying or minimising it, just establishing facts so that there’s actually something real to comment upon, instead of the totally false picture presented by ideologues and their media enablers. It wasn’t dirty old men attacking 8-year old girls; it was typically 30-something homosexuals “seducing” teen boys. That’s the bulk of it. Bl**dy terrible. But of course, NAMBLA preaches that this is not even abuse, but rather a beautiful thing.

    I’m very, very sorry to hear about your own experience, Duncan. I can’t express enough sympathy. My own case was much less devastating. He didn’t pick me, as he stalked our dormitory at night, a group of thirty 12 year olds, far from home and family. He picked what he perceived to be the weak. Their lives were indelibly altered. I know one of them still today. He hates religion, of course. I don’t blame him.

    Another priest thanked me for introducing him to my “delicious” young blonde mate. That’s how I found out the priest was a homosexual. Until then I had no idea. Fortunately my mate never found out. That priest later left and started a florist business in Perth. Idiot. He should never have gotten through the seminary.

    I know a bit about this, because I was there.

    Don’t put me into the politically invented category of “haters” who “blame “ homosexuals for what happened. Catholics don’t blame, except for blaming ourselves for our own faults and sins, we pity and excuse and forgive. We’re not Billy Graham or Fred Nile types, we’re followers of Christ, Who supped with criminals and public sinners. That large-hearted, non-judgemental mentality, filled with an overwhelming sense of sympathy for sinners, is what formed the background to the disastrous policy of moving abusers around instead of condemning them in the 1970s, when the liberal Church began to deal with the consequences of its entirely new liberal policies... And of course that became another point of condemnation of the Church. Condemned for excluding them from the clergy, then condemned for not excluding them from the clergy.

    Hate the sin, love the sinner. That’s our motto.

    Now, if you care about reality, not ideology, deal with the facts.

    Regards,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  23. #24418
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    It isn’t “blame”, it’s a description of fact.

    Why were there priests like that? Because John XXIII decided in 1960 to accomodate the Church to liberal ideology, dropped the rule against men with a tendency to that sin from being priests or religious, and they flooded in. Then the rate of sexual abuse sky-rocketed.

    So, no liberalism, tiny problem.

    I don’t hate them, and neither does the Church. It’s merely fact and sensible policy based on fact.

    Regards,
    John.
    To pretend that it's all down to one pope ignores the fact that abuse - sexual, emotional and physical - has been occurring within the Catholic Church for decades before (reports as early as the 1920s) by priests, nuns and others within the church, as well as the fact that it's not just the Catholic Church that has had systemic reports of abuse; that it's gone on in the Church of England and its various Anglican branches around the World, as well as within Muslim settings and Jewish as well as within the Salvation Army ( https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-...-finds/7835784 ).

    So stop being an apologist for child abuse within the Catholic Church and blaming it on homosexuals. Go and watch Philomena and then try and tell me all those nuns were lesbians. But most importantly, stop spouting utter garbage. The only person it's having any effect on is you. It's making you appear not just dim witted, because almost every argument you present is so easily cut down, but also an apologist for such evil and egregious behaviour that isn't 'gay' but criminal.
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  24. #24419
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Duncan, why is it that every time someone comes on to this thread with an opposing point of view to the predominant views of this thread, instead of debating the topic in a rational and intelligent manner and learning from each others views, understandings and experiences - you (though you’re not alone here) resort to insults, acrimony and bullying to shut that person down and denigrate him rather than exploring what he has to say and understanding why he says it???

    You’ve got a guy here who has persisted (as far as anything that I have read) with presenting polite and well articulated points of view despite the aggressive manner in which you continue to respond to him.

    Again and again I see you come back looking for any glimmer of something to attack hidden unseen to others within a post rather than reading the post and understanding what is being said - you’ve done it to me and you’ve been doing it to John.

    Do you think you’re the only person here who has had/is having a tough time of things? I can guarantee you that others are having/have had a much tougher time of things but they don’t go using that as an excuse to abuse people who have had nothing to do with causing their problems.

    Seriously mate (and I say mate intentionally) if this is the only way you can view this thread - take a break - you’re anger and hatred is not healthy and does you no justice, no matter the cause of it.
    Larks

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  25. #24420
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Duncan, you watch too many movies. Turing, Philomena, goodness.

    The Catholic clergy were immeasurably less likely to commit such crimes than any other group in the entire world prior to Vatican II. That’s just an overwhelming fact. It’s as true, and as manifestly true, as the propensity of the Catholic clergy and religious to engage in assisting the poor, by direct service in the home, education, health services, and advocacy. Even the Salvos, with their admirable record (far more impressive than any other Protestant or secular group) did not hold a candle to the Catholic Church. It’s the Church first, daylight second. Then the Salvos, then daylight again, then the government, then other religious groups.

    The few complaints from before V2 are exceptions that prove the rule.

    There’s a book entitled The Faithful Departed on the Archdiocese of Boston, about this issue. The author wants it to be understood that nothing new happened in the ‘sixties and tries to colour the record by citing pre-V2 cases. He almost can’t find any, so he cites the case of a priest who was secretly married to a woman in New York, and used to travel down on weekends to see her. Then there’s the tsunami in the ‘sixties. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Go borrow the book from the library and see for yourself. It’s a searing read.

    Read the USA data. Graph it. See the facts.

    I say to liberals, you hated the illiberal Church, and when you got a liberal one, you hate that too. It’s your kind of church now, own it.

    The schools and hospitals and old people homes and social services are all run without the priests and religious now, they’re all paid staff and the entire effort is now secularised and virtually indistinguishable from government equivalents, and the results are appalling. Few Catholic kids leave school with any faith.

    I have raised nine kids the traditional way, they are stable, happy, and successful. My eldest is a geologist with Rio Tinto, my second a chemical engineer with BHP, my third the best amateur mezzo-soprano in Perth (music degree UWA), my fourth is travelling and starting her degree in business in a few weeks, my fifth is a photographer (sample shot below) my sixth is headed for the convent. They all practice their faith seriously. My last three are still schooling. I’m kind of boasting, but my purpose is to emphasise that my money is where my mouth is. No liberalism = success. The problems we are discussing are some of the reasons we chose to reject the entire modern anti-tradition project, and I could not feel more secure in that decision.

    When you describe this as narrow or bigoted, as if our outlook was a blind defence of the indefensible, I think “what ignorance, what narrowness, what bigotry.” The biggest, most luminous facts, are invisible to you.

    Regards,
    John.

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    He didn't do it on the rugby field or at a rugby event. Rugby Australia doesn't and didn't ever own him 24 hours a day.
    Of course they owned him. Without RA, he's just another another weekend warrior playing footy for fun, with no profile and no platform. A nothing.
    The big fat paycheck and public profile have a price. Unless his contract was missing the clause about bringing the the game and/or the organisation into disrepute, his interactions with media were owned 24/7/365.

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I have recently made an iron cross out of recycled stuff to do with transport mounted on a section of planking from an old boat. for a catholic school. The theme was 'a journey'. It was a commission after I had made a smaller one for a very close Catholic friend who I reckon may well go into the priesthood as a mature applicant. (Ironic huh?)
    Interestingly his reasoning is that faith is bigger than the religion and that that needs all the internal support it can get. I have no problem with that.

    But just from my life and especially my 1950's childhood in a strong catholic area the abuses, and they were varied in kind and sources and victims, were the subject of much talk amongst us school kids, but they never told their parents because then they'd get another bashing for telling lies.
    I know this was not a universal problem, but it was not uncommon either.

    Of course I was at a state school, some measure of common assault was the worst that happened to me, mostly by my peers.

    I do not think the organisations involved, in general, have really come to terms with this yet, they certainly seem to have no shame, or compunction about flexing what muscle they have still, probably as a smokescreen.

  28. #24423
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Of course they owned him. Without RA, he's just another another weekend warrior playing footy for fun, with no profile and no platform. A nothing.
    The big fat paycheck and public profile have a price. Unless his contract was missing the clause about bringing the the game and/or the organisation into disrepute, his interactions with media were owned 24/7/365.

    Pete
    Not quite. He started in the NRL - playing league. He was poached by the AFL, playing Aussie football... and then he was poached by RA, playing union. Like I said, I suspect the courts will find in his favour. Either way, RA doesn't come out of it looking good... they sure haven't managed the situation very well.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  29. #24424
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Now there’s a particularly stunning bilge sweetener if ever I have seen one!! Bravo the fifth!! Should be selling these on-line as screen savers.....


    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Larks

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    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  30. #24425
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    A note on history. The traditional approach to personal vice was to have strict laws on the books against them, but not to enforce them, as a rule. St Thomas Aquinas explains and defends this approach in the greatest theology work of all time, the Summa Theologica. This was true of prostitution and of sodomy. Occasionally a particular case would absolutely outrage the local population and the law would be enforced. The case of the corruption of a youth by a creepy older bloke would be a standard example. It disgusted medieval folks as much as it disgusts us, probably more so.

    Hence your historical examples.

    I have tertiary study in medieval history, I know what I am talking about.

    Regards,
    John.
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    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  31. #24426
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Duncan, why is it that every time someone comes on to this thread with an opposing point of view to the predominant views of this thread, instead of debating the topic in a rational and intelligent manner and learning from each others views, understandings and experiences - you (though you’re not alone here) resort to insults, acrimony and bullying to shut that person down and denigrate him rather than exploring what he has to say and understanding why he says it???

    You’ve got a guy here who has persisted (as far as anything that I have read) with presenting polite and well articulated points of view despite the aggressive manner in which you continue to respond to him.
    I disagree.

    He's said it sexual abuse in the clergy was a "homosexual problem", and started splitting infinitives about paedophilia vs hebophilia as if abuse is somehow better if it has a different name. I've pointed out that abuse has occurred across a range of organisations and over a greater time period than he wishes to think it did. So the notion that sexual abuse, and the nasty physical abuse and emotional abuse, and the long standing practice of religious organisations removing babies from unwed mothers, so on and so forth is somehow attributable liberalism is nothing short of idiotic. I can find no other descriptor for such a proposition. It's akin to suggesting that the World is flat.

    Sure, many religious organisations including the Catholic Church have done a great deal of good, and I pointed that out. But to trivialise the depth of damage done to victims of abuse by the Catholic Church is far, far, far more insulting than anything I've said here.

    Victims are STILL awaiting compensation, and the various churches are STILL putting all manner of barriers in the way of such restitutions. The Catholic Church has had to be dragged kicking and screaming to make any kind of acknowledgement to its victims.

    Does anyone rightly think that even a single life destroyed by abuse and cover-up is somehow trivial, when such abuse was systemic in the church and abuser priests were almost all simply transferred someplace else, without any referral to the police, where their behaviours could continue unfettered? It may well only have been a small percentage of priests, but the damage they did was enormous. We had a flipping great royal commission into it!

    John telling me it's all the fault of liberals in the Church and that it was mainly boys being abuse (Derrr, we know that! Where did I raise this?) smacks to me of an apologist doing what the church has been doing to its victims for decades: Speaking in condescending platitudes, which is still condescending platitudes even if they are framed in the politest of language.

    As I said, it's insulting, and I've taken grave offence. Maybe John might learn something of how victims of this horrendousness feel about what the Catholic Church and other organisations have been saying to them, and relay this back to the church.

    Being a good person isn't dependant upon some spurious notion of traditional values being superior to liberal values. It's dependent upon how you treat others. If you condescend and trivialise the experiences of others don't expect a polite reply, or a pat on the back.

    I've lost gay friends to suicide: Good productive and talented people who were so torn with their identity they couldn't continue living. To tell John this and then read his comment that clergy abuse was a "homosexual problem" is a whopping great red rag, no matter how politely he couched it. For him to double down on his line is salt into this wound. Capiche?
    Last edited by Duncan Gibbs; 06-30-2019 at 03:53 AM.
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  32. #24427
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Duncan, you watch too many movies. Turing, Philomena, goodness.
    And these stories are untrue? They are somehow trivial?
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Your a good man John. I hope our paths cross someday.
    Dunc, your the abuser here. Your the one flat out insulting. I'm not sure why you can't see that? Every one of your posts your flip flopping all over the place and hurling abuse at anyone whom you believe has wronged you, especially toward John. Its unacceptable conduct even for the bilge.

  34. #24429
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    As i have stated before here, I was present at St Patrick's Centre in East Melbourne at the launch of Cardinal Pell's Melbourne Response. In the previous months i had written a song on the subject and performed it to all in attendance. Unlike John, I do not attribute the current spate of tragic abuse castes to Vatican 11. This seems to me an oversimplification, as it does to many who are more qualified than I am on the matter. I am not saying it didn't contribute to the problem. A more nuanced and broad ranging overview is needed. For instance, until this time, the social climate was not as open to hearing and responding to accusations from these powerless children and adolescents. That is a clear fact and to argue that because there where few cases before Vatican two and an explosion of cases after, and attribute causality to Vatican 11 is overly simplistic to the extreme. To illustrate my point, one historical case involves the now canonised Saint Mary Macillop.

    Church sex-abuse victims see Mary MacKillop as their patron saint
    Broken Rites has examined documentary evidence, including a letter written on 11 June 1872 by Father Joseph Tappeiner, a Jesuit priest who worked with Mary MacKillop's nuns.
    The sexually-abusive priest, Father Ambrose Patrick Keating, came to Australia from Ireland. He belonged to a Franciscan order (the Order of St Francis, or OSF). In 1870, Keating was ministering in a parish at Kapunda, north of Adelaide, in South Australia, where the Sisters of St Joseph were working. These nuns were helping under-privileged children.
    In 1870, while Mary MacKillop was away in Queensland, her nuns at Kapunda were concerned that Father Keating was committing sexual abuse. Tappeiner's account puts it this way: "Fr. Keating OSF was accused of sexual offence in the Confessional, committed frequently and with many."
    The nuns reported Keating to Father Julian Tenison Woods, who had co-founded their order with Mary MacKillop. The complaint reached the vicar-general (administrator) of the Adelaide diocese, Father John Smyth, who was in charge of the diocese during the absence of the bishop, Lawrence Sheil.
    Tappeiner's letter says: "Having examined the matter, Fr. J. Smyth VG [Vicar-General] judged Keating guilty of the offence and ordered him to return to Europe [that is, Ireland]."
    According to Tappeiner, the Vicar-General also made an adverse finding about Father Charles Horan (another Irishman) who was Father Keating's boss in Kapunda.
    Tappeiner's letter says: "Fr. Horan was then the companion and Superior of Fr. Keating and they were of the same Order of St. Francis; he himself was judged by the Vicar General to have been not altogether free from fault, even if only by turning a blind eye."
    That is, Father Horan had harboured and protected the abusive Keating.
    The Josephites' exposure of Keating angered Father Charles Horan, who swore revenge on the Josephites. Father Horan was by now working for Adelaide's Bishop Shiel and persuaded him to break up the Josephites by changing their structure.

    Locals of the district knew well of the difficulties Mary Macillop encountered because of her vigorous pursuit of justice.
    I grew up in the district where this history took place and as a child, when driving to Penola my father would always point out the old river redgum where Fr Julian Tenison Woods said mass in the days before a church was built. He contributed greatly to the educational model adopted by Mary Macillop. He had encountered a model of education for the poor in France and with some refinment presented these ideas to Mary Macillop to assist her in refining her own work.
    Julian Tenison-Woods - Wikipedia

    He was legend in the district and beyond and a much respected scientist as well:
    Biography - Julian Edmund Tenison-Woods - Australian Dictionary of Biography
    Tenison-Woods was an accurate observer of the physical world and made original contributions to Australian geology, palaeontology and zoology.
    Tenison-Woods's History of the Discovery and Exploration of Australia (London, 1865) in two volumes, and his serialized survey 'Australian bibliography' in the Australian Monthly Magazine, 1866-67, evidence wide scholarship. A member of the Royal Asiatic Society, he was a fellow of the Geological Society of London and the Linnean Society of London and an honorary member of the New Zealand Institute, the Royal societies of New South Wales, Victoria and Tasmania and the Adelaide Philosophical (Royal) Society. He was a president of and contributed papers to the Linnean Society of New South Wales and was a member of the Union Club, Sydney. William III of the Netherlands gave Tenison-Woods a gold medal for his book, Fish and Fisheries of New South Wales (Sydney, 1883) and he was awarded the 1888 (W. B.) Clarkemedal of the Royal Society of New South Wales for his work in natural history.

    I also noted in today's Age an article on the cost of the Melbourne Response stating more money was spent on defending the Church than was given as compensation to the abused. It is worth a read.

    Revealed: the true costs of George Pell's abuse compensation scheme

    Last edited by Hallam; 06-30-2019 at 04:56 AM.
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  35. #24430
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    (snipped a bit)

    UNIX - I fully support your right to use it, but if that's how it formats stuff for presentation on a public forum, I think its nuts.
    Straight forward copy and paste, if it's not right then blame Apple as it was done on an iPad. BTW I don't use Unix.
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