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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #19286
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Prearranged and done to minimise staff disruption. Your analysis is the only thing ridiculous about it
    Of course it was arranged, anything else would have been rather ridiculous. But I think the ABC used the 'raid' word in an early bulletin.

  2. #19287
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    More uninformed commentary. The banks are to a large extent owned by those who have worked and hold superannuation accounts . Of course, the dole bludgers don't share in the banks trickle down to the shareholders.
    oh dear.....
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  3. #19288
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    "Dole bludgers, "Green scum", quoting the execrable Eric, you do have the RW lexicon off pat.

  4. #19289
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Abuse, not balance. But then rather like bobbys you don't care, it's all an amusement.

  5. #19290
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Trickle-down economics : The greatest broken promise of our lifetime


    If one subscribes to the charitable view that neoliberal philosophy was simply naive or misguided in thinking that "trickle down" would work infinitely, then evidence that it doesn't, should be cause for concern. It is a fundamental building block of supply-side economic theory – the tool of choice these past few decades for those in charge to make adjustments. The realisation that governments have been pulling at economic levers which, for some time, have been attached to nothing, should be a wake-up call to the deepest sleepers

    In short, it has become more economically efficient to buy countries' economic policy than to create value in order to sell it on. If one can control government to favour the richest, while raising barriers for new entrants, thus increasing their share of the pie exponentially, what is the incentive to grow the pie?
    Zero-hours contracts are the way of the future; in a society that is hungry, desperate and devoid of political engagement or unionism, why would anyone offer terms and conditions that give individual workers any standing?

    And yet, the realisation must dawn soon – one hopes – that this model is unsustainable because its effects are uncontrollable. The more unequal we become as a society, the faster the top's earnings diverge from the bottom's. "When so much of the purchasing power, so much of the economic gain, goes to the very top," Bill Clinton's former labour secretary Robert Reich explains in the film Inequality For All. "There's simply not enough purchasing power in the rest of the economy." At the same time, there is far too much loose cash sloshing around at the top, leading to unwise risks and toxic investments. Wealth inequality in the US was at its highest levels, historically, in 1928 and 2007, one year before its two biggest financial crises, notes Reich. The base of the pyramid atrophies and begins to crumble.

    We have come to measure, to an increasing extent, individuals' success by their wealth, spending power and other assorted trappings. We do the same with the economic success of governments; measure it by an aggregated data set that fails to take into account wealth distribution, educational achievement, innovation, or even the welfare and health of the population they claim to represent. We must shift this perspective. It will be the hardest, simplest thing we have ever had to do as a species.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ise-richest-85



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  6. #19291
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Apologies to all the intelligent members here , I realize that you all know this already.
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  7. #19292
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Aviva, the UK's largest insurance company, did a profile of shareholders in the UK.
    98% of UK shareholders are individuals, around 600k of them. They own about 6% of all shares.
    The lions share of shares (), 92%, are owned by fewer than 1.5% of shareholders.

    Mythological dole bludgers are not the only ones not benefiting from share ownership. In the UK only 0.007% of individuals (including babies ) are benefiting from 92% of trickle up.
    That makes the USA's richest 1% seem comparatively egalitarian.

    In Australia, according to the ASX, about 31% of Australians own shares because of compulsory superannuation. Ozzies are about the highest direct share owners in the world. Fewer than 10% own shares because they went out and bought them of their own free will - the ASX is opaque about what percentage of shares this 10% own. The 10% tend to be over 75 and earn over $200k. About 20% of Australians own investment properties.

    Which all seems rosy, but;
    The big four banks are pretty much run by 4 groups, Citigroup, HBSC, JP Morgan and National Nominees. Between them they own close to or more than 50% of the big four. The interesting thing about these groups is they are in turn majority owned by about 20 shareholders. So a vast chunk of the wealth generated by Ozzie banks is going to about 20 people (who are probably not even Australian).

    Not trickle up?

    The trickle down is actually a painfully small drip, of a tiny portion of the wealth, distributed between about a quarter of the population.

    If plumbing carrys the metaphor; there is a Y split in the hose with a 1mm diameter hose 'trickling down' and a 30mm diameter hose 'trickling up'. (the smarter people will know that a 30mm hose has roughly 99 times the capacity of a 1mm hose ). Assuming equal pressure of course. By and large about 30% of the population is drinking; 85% of them from the 1mm hose (small sips everyone), and the rest (about 5% of the total population) is drinking from the 30mm hose - its not clear from figures i can find how much of that 30mm hose is being enjoyed by the top 1% but by international standards it would be significant. 70% of us are going completely thirsty.

    Trickle down is ideological fiction written and enforced vigorously by the richest, published daily in their news papers, vomited out regularly by their TV stations, reinforced routinely by their political puppets and otherwise shoved down the throats of the unthinking for them to regurgitate in pubs and taxis or use as a baton against those who have no hope whatsoever of taking part or even defending themselves.

    Worst of all, it is used to strip public services from all citizens, to pad out the personal wealth of people who already have more then they could possibly need. Pathetically there are citizens who gladly defend this rape of services in order to shore up in their minds the fiction that trickle down exists. Better to convince yourself at all costs that you are right than admit you are wrong (cognitive dissonance).
    Last edited by gypsie; 01-31-2018 at 10:38 PM.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  8. #19293
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Aviva, the UK's largest insurance company, did a profile of shareholders in the UK.
    98% of UK shareholders are individuals, around 600k of them. They own about 6% of all shares.
    The lions share of shares (), 92%, are owned by fewer than 1.5% of shareholders.

    Mythological dole bludgers are not the only ones not benefiting from share ownership. In the UK only 0.007% of individuals (including babies ) are benefiting from 100% of trickle up.
    That makes the USA's richest 1% seem comparatively egalitarian.

    In Australia, according to the ASX, about 31% of Australians own shares because of compulsory superannuation. Ozzies are about the highest direct share owners in the world. Fewer than 10% own shares because they went out and bought them of their own free will - the ASX is opaque about what percentage of shares this 10% own. The 10% tend to be over 75 and earn over $200k. About 20% of Australians own investment properties.

    Which all seems rosy, but;
    The big four banks are pretty much run by 4 groups, Citigroup, HBSC, JP Morgan and National Nominees. Between them they own close to or more than 50% of the big four. The interesting thing about these groups is they are in turn majority owned by about 20 shareholders. So a vast chunk of the wealth generated by Ozzie banks is going to about 20 people (who are probably not even Australian).

    Not trickle up?

    The trickle down is actually a painfully small drip, of a tiny portion of the wealth, distributed between about a quarter of the population.

    If plumbing carrys the metaphor; there is a Y split in the hose with a 1mm diameter hose 'trickling down' and a 30mm diameter hose 'trickling up'. (the smarter people will know that a 30mm hose has roughly 99 times the capacity of a 1mm hose ). Assuming equal pressure of course. By and large about 30% of the population is drinking; 85% of them from the 1mm hose (small sips everyone), and the rest (about 5% of the total population) is drinking from the 30mm hose - its not clear from figures i can find how much of that 30mm hose is being enjoyed by the top 1% but by international standards it would be significant. 70% of us are going completely thirsty.

    Trickle down is ideological fiction written and enforced vigorously by the richest, published daily in their news papers, vomited out regularly by their TV stations, reinforced routinely by their political puppets and otherwise shoved down the throats of the unthinking for them to regurgitate in pubs and taxis or use as a baton against those who have no hope whatsoever of taking part or even defending themselves.

    Worst of all, it is used to strip public services from all citizens, to pad out the personal wealth of people who already have more then they could possibly need. Pathetically there are citizens who gladly defend this rape of services in order to shore up in their minds the fiction that trickle down exists. Better to convince yourself at all costs that you are right than admit you are wrong (cognitive dissonance).
    I see you caught the correction.

    Better to convince yourself at all costs that you are right than admit you are wrong
    That`s the fool`s way after all .....like Trump voters
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  9. #19294
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wet Feet View Post
    Trickle-down economics : The greatest broken promise of our lifetime

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ise-richest-85
    Good article!

    observing that the "rising tide" is lifting fewer and fewer boats and leaving more and more to rot in the sediment
    so much wealth has been concentrated at the top, they no longer need bother to "build" anything.
    That certainly resonates with the circumstances in the world today. In the USA (where Trump has just given the richest US$1.5 Trillion) there are US$2 Trillion floating univested. Beggars belief, why would someone give 1.5T to someone who has 2t already? and why would the person with 2T invest the additional 1.5T when they haven't invested the first 2T. it disobeys reason!

    but as the article says
    the ultimate tragedy of capitalism in our time, that it has achieved its dominance without regard to a social compact, without being connected to any other metric for human progress
    Thanks for sharing.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  10. #19295
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Actually gypsie, with that divergence of economic status, private investment becomes a problem because the 'consumer', who supplies the profit, can no longer afford to consume.

  11. #19296
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    They gotta consume something. a man gotta eat.
    But if the richest won't invest the trillions they have now, they clearly don't feel the need to invest at all.
    They are happy reaping the profits from what consumption is occurring - inevitably the vast percentage of that wealth will be theirs alone.

    This isn't dystopian hyperbole. This is creeping in. Stagnant wages, fewer services, growing disparity - alongside record productivity, record profits and so much wealth in the hands of so few.

    But of course, the revolution will come. I see guillotine's in the future, with laser powered blades!
    Or governments will finally see the naked stupidity of supply side policies, use tax payers money to grow demand and equity - you know, lead.

    personally, I want to see laser guillotines.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  12. #19297
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    It's quite possible to be independent yet despise the policies of the right. Getup are the center, the right has trundled so far from Menzies concept of a "Liberal" Party he wouldn't get preselection today.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  13. #19298
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.



    We are engaging in an activity where I get everything, and they get nothing.If it`s an economy , and not a game ,they are likely to get really angry and come and kill me , and take all my stuff , because that will be their only option at that point.
    http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/sup.../ZW0292A002S00
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  14. #19299
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    More uninformed commentary. The banks are to a large extent owned by those who have worked and hold superannuation accounts . Of course, the dole bludgers don't share in the banks trickle down to the shareholders.
    Maybe not but everyone on some form of government financial support puts every cent back into the hands of businesses throughout the country. Thereby supporting local businesses and their local community. People on welfare can't afford creative accountants and bank accounts in the Cayman Islands.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  15. #19300
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    It seems that Ian takes the economist's theoretical view that volunteers contribute nothing to the economy, nor do carers, artists, etc.

    Says a lot about his attitude of resentment.

  16. #19301
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    It seems that Ian takes the economist's theoretical view that volunteers contribute nothing to the economy, nor do carers, artists, etc.

    Says a lot about his attitude of resentment.
    Good point.Estimates vary , but its huge.

    Dr Liesel O'Dwyer of the University of Adelaide used ABS figures to quantify the value of volunteering. And her numbers are staggering. She estimated the value at $200 billion per annum.
    http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-e...09-gpf7od.html



    Value of Volunteers in Australia tops 290 Billion

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-e...09-gpf7od.html


    The real economists would be well aware of the facts Jeff.
    Last edited by Wet Feet; 02-01-2018 at 04:01 PM.
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  17. #19302
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Twice nothing is still nothing.
    Missed point again.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  18. #19303
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Just an aside. On the Tiwi Islands the single Telstra tower went down damaged by weather. No internet, phone, access to credit or cash and in some cases power, or the Commonwealth single payment card that most transactions go through. The only 'shop' cannot transact any payments other than cash either.
    And it's not all that unusual evidently.

  19. #19304
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    No comments on David Feiney's political demise?

    Will the libs run to give Labour their preferences to block out another Green?
    Curiouser and curiouser………….

  20. #19305
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    83mm of rain, wet up here.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  21. #19306
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Just an aside. On the Tiwi Islands the single Telstra tower went down damaged by weather. No internet, phone, access to credit or cash and in some cases power, or the Commonwealth single payment card that most transactions go through. The only 'shop' cannot transact any payments other than cash either.
    And it's not all that unusual evidently.
    The future, when we become completely net dependent?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  22. #19307
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Or when some conflict between the US and China, even a small scale one, results in the shooting down of the satellite network. All our eggs are in 'one basket' so to speak.

  23. #19308
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    83mm of rain, wet up here.
    And a bit on the cool side, two days ago I was drowning in sweat.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  24. #19309
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    We got 24mm monday/tuesday, a real bonus this time of year. It has been very humid for Victoria.

    Nearly finished my garage renovations, then I can get onto the boat properly. Undecided whether to rebuild the framing, it never was much good but it has held up since 1961.

  25. #19310
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Just an aside. On the Tiwi Islands the single Telstra tower went down damaged by weather. No internet, phone, access to credit or cash and in some cases power, or the Commonwealth single payment card that most transactions go through. The only 'shop' cannot transact any payments other than cash either.
    And it's not all that unusual evidently.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-0...slands/9387250

    All these dole bludgers should get a job, besides what can they expect if they make the lifestyle choice of living in an area of low employment.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  26. #19311
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/...on-leane-smith
    Now if she had been white she could have just bought a boat.
    Regarding WW1 nurses I have an excellent book on their service.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  27. #19312
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Another rant from the right about negative gearing.
    This time the former chief economist of the Bank of America Merrill Lynch Australia, and a ex-treasury official.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...gative-gearing

    Saul Eslake, said Treasury’s advice to government, has revealed the extent to which the government and property industry have been willing to “peddle any lie” to ensure the survival of a tax system that privileges investors.
    “First, Treasury advised the government that negative gearing and the capital gains tax benefits disproportionately benefit high-income households,” he writes. “Despite this, the government and the property industry continue to assert that the main beneficiaries of negative gearing are ‘teachers, nurses and police officers’, or (alternatively) ‘mums and dads trying to get ahead’.
    “This is a 21st century illustration of the saying attributed to Joseph Goebbels, that if a lie is big enough, and it’s repeated often enough, it can become accepted as the truth.”
    “What this episode underscores is the extent to which the government and the property industry are willing to ‘tell any lie, peddle any fiction, distort any fact, and conceal any contrary advice no matter how authoritative its source, in order to assure the survival’ of the privileged treatment which the Australian taxation system confers on investors.”
    Ranting right wing banker!!

    wait a minute........
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  28. #19313
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I do like Greg Jericho

    What is it about negative gearing and its ability to make conservative governments espouse absurdities and to ignore advice?
    Negative gearing is the economic equivalent of a migrant crime story – something conservative political parties believe they can use to scare voters despite little or no relation to facts.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  29. #19314
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    ''What is it about negative gearing and its ability to make conservative governments espouse absurdities and to ignore advice?''

    Self and partisan interests, follow the money.

  30. #19315
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    What a stupid, defamatory post. I made no reference whatsoever to volunteers. My attitude of resentment, as you call it, is reserved for idiotic posts, like this one of yours.
    Resentment is Mother's Milk to the right !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  31. #19316
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Shorten has sniffed the wind and suddenly discovered Adani is on the nose...surprise surprise.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  32. #19317
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    No, Labor is on the nose and he's trying to win a by-election
    Both but then so are the LibNats.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  33. #19318
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Weather here has been stinking hot followed by cold south easterlies. How was the weather in Uki today?
    Bald, ugly, not too bright but incredibly sexy in an unattractive sort of way....

  34. #19319
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    G'day Chris, same here. But a SE wind is perfect for sailing down at Inverloch. 42c isn't so bad when there's a 15kt sea breeze blowing off Bass Strait. Still got that cray licence?

  35. #19320
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by doorstop View Post
    Weather here has been stinking hot followed by cold south easterlies. How was the weather in Uki today?
    Two days ago it was so humid you could have rung a cup of water out of the air. As of yesterday considerably cooler and raining and it looks like being wet for a few more days at least.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

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