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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #19216
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Poison blankets ?


    Editor's introduction Dr Jim Poulter's learned study has revolutionary consequences for much demographic theory on Australia's population pre-European settlement. This is a deeply satisfying analysis for specialist and enthusiast alike, given its knowledgeable attention to the role of the clan and skin system in ordering fertility opportunity; its integration of climate, space and tradition into the equation; and its careful use of European data on the effects and quarantine of smallpox in the years 1789 and 1828. Anyone studying the effects of smallpox anywhere, however, cannot escape being affected by its tragic and terrifying aspect - even across centuries - and the scale of its impact. - Sheila Newman (Population Sociologist)Abstract
    Utilising both historical documentation and Aboriginal oral history, the author explores the impacts of the 1789 and 1828 smallpox plagues on Aboriginal Australia. Particular reference is made to the Wurundjeri people of the Melbourne area, where the plague entered their folklore as ‘the Mindye’. An analysis is made of the natural carrying capacity of the land for hunter-gatherer society in Australia in poor seasons and the pre 1788 population is estimated at three million people. The course of the 1789 smallpox plague along the coastal areas and inland river systems is briefly mapped. A death rate of 90% is established for populations having their first exposure to smallpox and the Australian death toll for the 1789 pandemic is estimated as at least two and a half million Australians. The original population of Woiwurung speaking people in essentially the Yarra Valley area of Melbourne is estimated at 20,000, with this being reduced to 1000 people after the second smallpox plague that began in 1828. It is concluded that the massive social dislocation and internecine conflict caused by the plague was then mistakenly seen and recorded by early settlers and historians as the ‘normal’ state of affairs. [About the Author - see end of this article ]

    https://candobetter.net/node/3720 A very interesting read in full.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  2. #19217
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    So, the indigenous on indigenous violence was OK in your book?

    The misogyny?

    The attempts to stop inter-tribal warring were bad?

    It was wrong to provide humanitarian aid?
    Christ Ian grow up, do you enjoy misconstruing the opinions of others. Yeah they stopped inter tribal war though the cunning application of ethnic cleansing and massacre.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  3. #19218
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    From my link above,

    One of the immediate benefits of actively governing their population and never over populating was that there were no wars of conquest or occupation. This is supported by the fact that no such events were ever recorded in Aboriginal oral history, myth or legend. Each tribe remained in their own catchment area in order to meet their life purpose of exercising a conscious stewardship of their Country. The only intertribal disputes that ever arose were therefore in relation to tribal boundaries or inter-tribal justice and ‘payback’ issues.[15] Many historians have implicitly acknowledged this fact, but then made the mistake of thinking that the internecine conflict that followed the massive depopulation by smallpox was the ‘normal’ state of affairs.[16]
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  4. #19219
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I Think the european 'betters' seem to have continued the tradition of domestic violence and the murder of partners mostly of women by men, rape and assault etc. quite efficiently. The sexual industrial and violent abuse of children seems to have been alive and well here ever since as it was of course in industrial Britain at the time of the first fleet.

    But I digress. How about in say, 2 years, giving time for all proponents to get their ideological rocks off, we get the Census mob to run a postal survey…………………. Can't trust this sort of thing to politicians who serve different masters than their electorates. If pollies religious principles, or lobbyists 'donations' get in the way it means they are no longer representing their voters. Another dose of direct democracy will do no harm at all.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 01-29-2018 at 02:53 AM.

  5. #19220
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    It’s like arguing with Tony Abbott.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  6. #19221
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    It’s like arguing with Tony Abbott.
    Exactly !!!
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  7. #19222
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    ….and just as pointless.

  8. #19223
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I see you haven't done your course in "Insult Free Dialogue " yet. Be brave, learn a new skill.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  9. #19224
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    It seems the ALP has dropped of Ian's hate radar……………….
    He must give the greens more electoral cred than I do.

    Who'd a thunk it?

  10. #19225
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    That's not going to happen while the denialist LibNats keep egging the population on with their coal loving BS.
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  11. #19226
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    See what I mean .... burn more lignite!
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  12. #19227
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    At present any gas from Vic would be piped away and sold cheaply OS with no real reduction in the domestic price, so that's why it stays in the ground. And the population are not too keen on it either.

  13. #19228
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  14. #19229
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Thanks Gary, "Invaded " then.
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  15. #19230
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    The first fleeters may well have considered themselves settlers or colonists but from the aboriginal point of view it was invasion.
    ​"Life is under no obligation to give us what we expect." Irrfan Khan. RIP

  16. #19231
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I see that Morrison, despite his religious and moral protestations, was not above some very dodgy work whilst Immigration Minister, and likely still is not. ''Principles schminciples..? I have others"
    "Scott Morrison agreed his department should intervene in ASIO security checks to try to prevent asylum seekers from being granted permanent protection visas, according to cabinet documents obtained by the ABC."

    http://www.abc.net.au/?WT.z_navMenu=...ink=ABC%20Home

    Who'd a thunk it eh?

  17. #19232
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    This isn't going to go away Ian, we will have to deal with it. And whatever the deal some will agree, some not, in both camps.

  18. #19233
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I see that Morrison, despite his religious and moral protestations, was not above some very dodgy work whilst Immigration Minister, and likely still is not. ''Principles schminciples..? I have others"
    "Scott Morrison agreed his department should intervene in ASIO security checks to try to prevent asylum seekers from being granted permanent protection visas, according to cabinet documents obtained by the ABC."

    http://www.abc.net.au/?WT.z_navMenu=...ink=ABC%20Home

    Who'd a thunk it eh?
    Yes, I heard that story. Morrison is everything we have suggested. Pond slime.
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  19. #19234
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    That old saw .... we could have saved every one had Navy been told to escort boats .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  20. #19235
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    ^ bloody good point!
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  21. #19236
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    The thing about this is, like the lying about advice on negative gearing, it adds weight to the feeling that politicians can’t be trusted.
    if they are taking a stand, where serious impartial (frank and fearless) advice is telling them their position doesn’t hold water - then why the hell are they taking that position?
    i know their constituency is hearing what it wants to hear and this is politics after all, but even their supporters are seeing the lies and as much as they want the lie to be truth, they too must feel a fundamental distrust of politicians in the long run. Does anyone trust the liberals to be truthful. Can even a liberal voter say ‘yes that is the truth because a liberal politician said it’.

    don’t get me wrong, labour wouldn’t be a whole lot better in practise.

    whats wrong with evidence based policy? Are Australians so dumb that Pollies could never explain facts to us? We just can’t be trusted to make informed choices?

    politics is on the rocks when politicians won’t trust the people, and the people can’t trust politicians.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  22. #19237
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    "Speak for yourself. Pollies explain facts to me all the time."

    Blurt……………..LO very L………….. (any more comment would see you pushing buttons, but you get my drift I'm sure.)

  23. #19238
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I don't know, you tell me.

    But the fact remains that we agreed to take in refugees who sort asylum and since that cretin, Howard lowered the bar Australia has done everything to avoid honouring it's word.

    It seems to me that people who spend everything and risk their lives would be the best possible citizens!! They have proven their strength of character and devotion to achieving what they seek. It's always been a mystery why the Libs especially haven't embraced them as the ideal citizens.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  24. #19239
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    "Speak for yourself. Pollies explain facts to me all the time."

    Blurt……………..LO very L………….. (any more comment would see you pushing buttons, but you get my drift I'm sure.)

    And he loves pushing buttons .

    Yet he is the most offensive of all.
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  25. #19240
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Why would we escort people who just wanted to crash the border?

    These people paid twenty to thirty times as much for a seat in a rickety boat as they could have for a plane ticket. Why?
    One very obvious reason is airlines won't carry people without a passport and obviously, refugees are very unlikely to be able to approach the government they are fleeing for a passport.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  26. #19241
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Then shall I say I think you are prone to 'exaggeration' at times…………………….

    Can I get away with that Scot?

  27. #19242
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Oh dear, I thought you were going to answer your own question Grumpy .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  28. #19243
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    “People may not have passports, but there’s also very good reasons for that,” Ian Rintoul, an activist from the Refugee Action Coalition, told Crikey. People smugglers often create fake passports to allow asylum seekers to enter ports in Indonesia or Malaysia and then remove the passports from asylum seekers before they board boats to Australia, often so they can re-use the fake names and passports. Many people smugglers also often demand that asylum seekers give up their mobile phones and genuine passports before embarking on the boat voyage.

    Asylum seekers do occasionally destroy their passports but there is no data on how many do this. Sometimes it’s because Indonesia and Australia are more likely to deport asylum seekers found with a valid travel document. “I would tell any asylum seeker to arrive here without their passport, because if they’ve got a valid passport it’s far easier for the government to deport them,” said Rintoul.

    Plus, it depends where they come from. Feili Kurds are stateless and not issued identification by Iran, despite spending decades there; Tamils often struggle to get passports issued by Sri Lanka; Afghans coming via Pakistan may not have a passport, but often have Pakistani drivers licences and school certificates.

    https://www.crikey.com.au/2013/07/11/get-fact-how-many-asylum-seekers-turn-up-without-id/

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  29. #19244
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Because we have a sovereign state. A border that WE control, not any individual who decides to come here for the dole.

    All these people have proven is that they aren't prepared to obey the government's rules and laws and that they have an abundance of money to throw away.
    You are either deliberately ignorant of Australia's responsibilities under the Refugee Convention or doing a Morrison .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  30. #19245
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    The prime document required for refugee status is issued by the UNHCR. I have some experience in this regard.
    So you will therefore explain to us why boat arrivals are often without papers ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  31. #19246
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Another internet hero.

    Without fail, none of these heroes would ever be brave enough to say something like that to another's face.
    I would not be so cock sure of yourself batman
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

  32. #19247
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    So you will therefore explain to us why boat arrivals are often without papers ?
    Ian ?
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  33. #19248
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Only a fool would believe a Pollies 'facts' today. (which fits)
    Their spin has them tied up in knots - we so expect them to lie we double guess them when they open their mouths. They try and predict the double guessing and tripple guess and on and on.

    I don't mean to be overly hard on Pollies, only a true leader can successfully tell people stuff they don't want to hear and we have a severe shortage of that in our parliaments.

    I really blame the unthinking class; those who wish to impose their ideology on others and scream foul at facts that show their religion is a load of rot.

    Like - its okay to invade Iraq, it will release the inner western democratic tendancies that they all so desperately want to express. But when it turns to poo and persecuted minorities flee from coalition funded warlords to arrive at our door step - the burning proof of right wing hubris, and the failure of neo-liberal policies - we call them illegal, let them drown at sea or shove them in concentration camps on Micronesian islands. Because its better to twist truth and hide the proof of arrogance than admit it was wrong and accept the consequences.

    The desperate need in the country for wages growth, the vast profits being made by business, and then the governments stand on the union movement......... Painted themselves into an ideological corner, but they'll never admit that. They'll continue to spout their religious beliefs with fervour.

    Climate Change!!

    Pollies and facts - or - Pollies and alternative facts.
    Citizens believing facts - or - citizens believing ideologies.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  34. #19249
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Shorten has taken on the Greens policy of a Federal ICAC, Turnbull will feel the pressure to come on board too. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-3...tchdog/9374420
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  35. #19250
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Shorten has taken on the Greens policy of a Federal ICAC, Turnbull will feel the pressure to come on board too. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-3...tchdog/9374420

    IF it happens , what will be the outcome ?

    Royal commissions , for all their recommendations , have never resulted in appropriate actions ( or ) prosecutions for crimes at the highest level.
    If you are the smartest person in the room, you are in the wrong room.

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