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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #18831
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    But you just pointed out that the financing of the project by the Chinese will mean less benefits for Australia.

    Who caused that?
    It’s a project that shouldn’t even be happening, least of all with Adani.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  2. #18832
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    "China can now influence virtually all of Australia's national interests………"

    I hate to say we told you so……………………..

  3. #18833
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I need help!

    there's something i can't quite articulate in the whole religious freedom thing.

    Just read an article describing religious freedom as a Human Right - ergo society has a obligation to ensure religious freedom.

    My conundrum is;
    Society has an obligation to ensure religious people can do the things they want to do, and they don't have to do things that contravene their religious beliefs.
    But society does not have an obligation to ensure gay people can live free and equitable lives. Or at least that obligation can be ignored if it clashes with religious beliefs.

    Isn't there something upside down about that. Because you believe in a mythological being your rights supercede those of people in everyday life. It seems religious belief trumps merit, instead of merit trumping self interest. (is merit the right word...?)

    I know there is something deeply incongruous in there but i just can't quite get the right words around it.

    Trev
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

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  4. #18834
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    It’s a project that shouldn’t even be happening, least of all with Adani.
    Yeah, but.... what you said before!
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  5. #18835
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    You can thank me on NK later... give it about a month
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  6. #18836
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Yeah, but.... what you said before!
    I was pointing out that a bad situation was about to get worse.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  7. #18837
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I need help!

    there's something i can't quite articulate in the whole religious freedom thing.

    Just read an article describing religious freedom as a Human Right - ergo society has a obligation to ensure religious freedom.

    My conundrum is;
    Society has an obligation to ensure religious people can do the things they want to do, and they don't have to do things that contravene their religious beliefs.
    But society does not have an obligation to ensure gay people can live free and equitable lives. Or at least that obligation can be ignored if it clashes with religious beliefs.

    Isn't there something upside down about that. Because you believe in a mythological being your rights supercede those of people in everyday life. It seems religious belief trumps merit, instead of merit trumping self interest. (is merit the right word...?)

    I know there is something deeply incongruous in there but i just can't quite get the right words around it.

    Trev
    It goes even deeper than that. What about religions that practice genital mutilation, should they be allowed to do that as a religious freedom? And there are Christian sects that practice that.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  8. #18838
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    I was pointing out that a bad situation was about to get worse.
    Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Looks like the Chinese may back Adani which will mean even less benefit to Australia.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-2...rs-say/9177470
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  9. #18839
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Really?
    Okay, let me spell it out for you. The QLD and Federal governments with approval of the federal opposition want to let Adani buy a huge coal reserve by selling the coal to pay for it. Adani has a seriously bad environmental track record. They have an extremely convoluted corporate and legal structure that allows them to channel profits offshore to tax havens. Australian politicians want to basically give Adani $1,000,000,000 to set up shop. Which would mean some Australian jobs and a cash flow to a number of Australian manufacturing/construction firms...that is the only good bit. However if the Chinese finance it then the Chinese will insist that materials and infrastucture items come from China.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  10. #18840
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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Okay, let me spell it out for you. The QLD and Federal governments with approval of the federal opposition want to let Adani buy a huge coal reserve by selling the coal to pay for it. Adani has a seriously bad environmental track record. They have an extremely convoluted corporate and legal structure that allows them to channel profits offshore to tax havens. Australian politicians want to basically give Adani $1,000,000,000 to set up shop. Which would mean some Australian jobs and a cash flow to a number of Australian manufacturing/construction firms...that is the only good bit. However if the Chinese finance it then the Chinese will insist that materials and infrastucture items come from China.
    Ignoring, for the moment, most of the errors in your blurb, why then did the Greens put pressure on the Australian banks to not finance it, when the logical next move was for it to be financed by, eg, the Chinese? Are they just trying to ensure the country is ruined?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  11. #18841
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Why then did the Greens put pressure on the Australian banks to not finance it?
    Isn't all resistance - resistance.
    Persuading major banks that something is economically unsustainable because it is environmentally unsustainable is a major win in any Green language. The repercussions of that go wider and deeper than just one coal mine.
    I think it makes sense the Greens would fight that fight.
    Last edited by gypsie; 11-22-2017 at 09:31 PM.
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

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  12. #18842
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    It goes even deeper than that. What about religions that practice genital mutilation, should they be allowed to do that as a religious freedom? And there are Christian sects that practice that.
    Yes - entirely gross practices.

    I was amazed, coming from Catholic Ireland, to find that Australian Catholics circumcise their boys - and continue to do so. That isn't practiced in Ireland - so i don't think its a religious practice - more cultural.
    Either way that's a practice within a religion/culture. As repellent as it is, and I will support any campaign to abolish it, it is within its sphere. When those beliefs mean people outside that sphere must suffer indignation or discrimination so the believers don't suffer some kind of bad taste in their mouth or something - that chafes.

    Its the supposition that religious people are more important than anyone else simply because they are religious. That all must bow before their God regardless.
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

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  13. #18843
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Isn't all resistance - resistance.
    Persuading major banks that something is economically unsustainable because it is environmentally unsustainable is a major win in any Green language. The repercussions of that go wider and deeper than just one coal mine.
    I think it makes sense the Greens would fight that fight.
    The net effect of raising energy prices in Australia was that industrial production went overseas to areas with worse environmental standards. It made things worse, not better.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  14. #18844
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    The net effect of raising energy prices in Australia was that industrial production went overseas to areas with worse environmental standards. It made things worse, not better.
    What a full sentence!

    The environmental battle is a long fight and getting banks to agree that sustainability is the future is a major win - even if there are perceived short term loses.

    The rising energy prices is caused by hardcore capitalist practices manipulating supply and therefore price, and gold plating infrastructure.
    (And possibly falling demand as domestic use of PV becomes more material - causing panic and over pricing now as future predictions of income show strong decline; hence banks not getting behind coal).

    Production has gone overseas because of cheap labour - and that has been happening for decades. It hasn't just happened because power is in the headlines. Energy cost was not a driver when Tony Abbot shut down car manufacturing. The decline of industry in Australia precedes this power calamity by generations. However it is inversely proportional to the rise in financial and other services. I don't see those going overseas, and a reliable supply of electricity is critical for them (as well as high quality communications infrastructure - that the Libs have made a F'n mess of).

    The market is useful to a point. That point in many instances has been reached and now we are into the lunatic last 5% where believers, sycophants and fanatics continue to fly the flag of market rationalism in the hope that "if we make rich people richer maybe they'll give me some money - pleeease" (eye lash flutter).
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

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  15. #18845
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Yeah, good on yer. Want me to bring back a red flag?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  16. #18846
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Yeah, good on yer. Want me to bring back a red flag?
    Better than the flag of economic fundamentalism.
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

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  17. #18847
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Better than the flag of economic fundamentalism.
    Which, of course, secured your future
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  18. #18848
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Which, of course, secured your future
    Nup, we've been a mixed economy with socialist tendencies for 60 years.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  19. #18849
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Nup, we've been a mixed economy with socialist tendencies for 60 years.
    Your breeze has changed direction again, eh? Moves your view of Oz every time it does.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  20. #18850
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Ignoring, for the moment, most of the errors in your blurb, why then did the Greens put pressure on the Australian banks to not finance it, when the logical next move was for it to be financed by, eg, the Chinese? Are they just trying to ensure the country is ruined?
    The Greens and I agree with them that it should not have got the green (no pun intended) light in the first place. The whole deal with Adani has a smell about it that would make a week old corpse smell sweet.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  21. #18851
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Better than the flag of economic fundamentalism.
    Who was it who said I'd rather wear a black armband than a white blindfold?
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  22. #18852
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    How is it they can find $2 billion for this but not money for more nursing staff?
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-2...ebuilt/9182798
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  23. #18853
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Lots of nice contracts to go around, tear down a perfectly workable stadium $$$$ and build a new one in the same place. $$$$$
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  24. #18854
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Well with the Chinese funding the mine then likely both majors political funding stream is assured. That is unless after the white paper they decide not to of course. No cash if you don't play ball.
    And $2 bill. spent on nurses would not result in the same level of party funding as $2 bill. spent on the mining industry.

  25. #18855
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    The Greens and I agree with them that it should not have got the green (no pun intended) light in the first place. The whole deal with Adani has a smell about it that would make a week old corpse smell sweet.
    I've smelt week old corpses that weren't too bad. Refrigeration does wonders.

    Meanwhile, the Greens were part of the government that oversaw the environmental legislation that Adani applied under. The Adani proposal passed the sniff test under that legislation. Suck it up... it's your baby.

    As much as we'd all like to use energy with zero environmental costs.... and not use a single lump of coal again, it just ain't happening like that. Not now, not for a long, long time. So, in the meantime, how about we manage for best outcomes, rather than worst?

    The Greens have a long history of being involved in worst outcomes. Manus Island sheets home to them too.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  26. #18856
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-2...ebuilt/9182798
    Tittytainment.

    Tittytainment The word "tittytainment" was coined for the first time in 1995 by the neo-liberal ideologue Zbigniew Brzezinski



    7 April 2010 at 07:23
    Tittytainment is a term describing the propaganda designed to protect the capitalist and neo-liberal principles that govern globalization.

    It is a form of censorship, propaganda and disinformation with the fundamental objective of minimizing, in the eyes of democratic countries populations, the toxic effects that the current globalization is starting to create on a big part of the world population, according to anti-globalization groups.


    Etymology and explications

    The word "tittytainment" was coined for the first time in 1995 by the neo-liberal ideologue Zbigniew Brzezinski, member of the Trilateral Commission and ex-national security adviser of United States President Jimmy Carter, during the conclusion of the first "State of the World Forum", which was hosted at the Fairmont Hotel in the city of San Francisco. The objective of this meeting was to determine the state of the world, suggest desirable objectives and principal activities to achieve them, and to establish global politics to match them. The attendees to this meeting (Mikhail Gorbachev, George Bush, Margaret Thatcher, Václav Havel, Bill Gates, Ted Turner, etc.) arrived at the conclusion that a 20:80 society is inevitable. This means that the work provided by 20% of the world population would be sufficient to sustain the world economy, while the other 80% would be without work or opportunities, nourishing a growing frustration.

    This is where Brzezinski's concept came into play. Brzezinski suggested that "tittytainment," a mix of physical and psychological methods, be used to control people's frustration and predictable protests. He then explained the term as being a portmanteau fused from titty and entertainment, alluding to the sleeping and lethargic effect that is produced when a baby is breastfed.


  27. #18857
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    I've smelt week old corpses that weren't too bad. Refrigeration does wonders.

    Meanwhile, the Greens were part of the government that oversaw the environmental legislation that Adani applied under. The Adani proposal passed the sniff test under that legislation. Suck it up... it's your baby.

    As much as we'd all like to use energy with zero environmental costs.... and not use a single lump of coal again, it just ain't happening like that. Not now, not for a long, long time. So, in the meantime, how about we manage for best outcomes, rather than worst?

    The Greens have a long history of being involved in worst outcomes. Manus Island sheets home to them too.

    Ridiculous twaddle.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  28. #18858
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Imagine if neither Labor nor the Nats in Queensland would form coalition with One Nation.
    A nice thought but unlikely.http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...8b48b014165ab6
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  29. #18859
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    The smell of power is very seductive, principles do not usually apply, if they ever do in politics.


    OTOH it seems it's a Nats problem mostly, and a democratic vote imposes some responsibility on ALL those elected.

    What if the voters got so miffed that ON overtook the LibNats? What then?

    BTW, link = paywall.

  30. #18860
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Yes, I can't get back to the page either.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  31. #18861
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Ridiculous twaddle.
    Oh, I'm taking that as a full endorsement
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  32. #18862
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Of course if the mine is financed by the Chinese, the equipment will be Chinese, much of the employment on the whole project will be Chinese, the profits will be largely Chinese and if Adani manages to sell it's Indian power station to the government (currently on offer for ONE dollar), the mine may end up being Chinese by default. Not too many actual Aussie jobs there.
    And as regard eventual site clean up, pigs might fly and will any Australian government try to enforce environmental regulations? Not particularly likely I'd say.

    PS: re new stadium costs. Economics are under 1.2 evidently meaning that they will loose money, but the sporting codes will be happy.
    Bread and circuses….tittytainment again.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 11-23-2017 at 01:12 PM.

  33. #18863
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Spot on Jeff and of course for the money boys millions of tons of carbon dioxide are completely irrelevant.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  34. #18864
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Of course if the mine is financed by the Chinese, the equipment will be Chinese, much of the employment on the whole project will be Chinese, the profits will be largely Chinese and if Adani manages to sell it's Indian power station to the government (currently on offer for ONE dollar), the mine may end up being Chinese by default. Not too many actual Aussie jobs there.
    And as regard eventual site clean up, pigs might fly and will any Australian government try to enforce environmental regulations? Not particularly likely I'd say.

    PS: re new stadium costs. Economics are under 1.2 evidently meaning that they will loose money, but the sporting codes will be happy.
    Bread and circuses….tittytainment again.
    And look out any single mum on welfare with an over payment.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  35. #18865
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Which, of course, secured your future
    hmmmm
    I got a degree, i was given an allowance to go to Uni and my fees were paid for by the state. My family could never have paid for me to get that today.
    when i left Uni i was on the dole, intermittently but regularly, for many years as i struggled to find my feet.
    My dad did his apprenticeship during the period of the golden years after WWII when the welfare state grew exponentially, the western world was at full employment, the disparity between rich and poor was tolerable and people felt like the future was good. His rural background on the western tip of Ireland would have excluded him from opportunities otherwise.

    Then along came market fundamentalism.
    the poor can't go to Uni (can't pull themselves out of struggle street)
    the rich are obscenely rich and can't even see the poor.
    politics is toxically polarised.
    Global warming!

    Market fundamentalism secured my future - that's just Bollo#. All its done is divide, make rich people richer, grow a stable of sychophants who evangalise that its better the rich are richer than for everyone else to have a chance (and they might give us some money....). The worship of the market is destroying the earth and dividing communities. The future is a lot less secure because of it.
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

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