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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #1786
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Mine too but they weren't politicians

    Student politicians spend their time arguing , organising and in the case of the boys under discussion , practicing their racism, homophobia and misogyny . Charming fellas.
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  2. #1787
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Bye Rob, I'll bid you a pleasant good night .
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  3. #1788
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Portland View Post
    It could be worse.
    They could be lefty bludgers !.
    What are they somehow different to righty bludgers?
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  4. #1789
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Well Tony has offered humanitarian support and air transport, and we owe that. But do you really think that this will actually be where it stops? I don't as it happens.

  5. #1790
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Portland View Post
    Obviously .
    Even you should be able to figure that out.
    People who have spent a major part of their life bludging on the taxpayer shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.
    They should be forced to get off their blot , and work !.
    Pay taxes , contribute to the country they live in.
    In one period of my life I was living out of a 2 man tent , but I was working !.
    And paying my share of taxes.
    For over 30 years I payed enough tax to support 2 bludgers !.
    And who is going to put their life on the line , facing off terrorists ?.
    It won't be the free loaders , that is for sure.
    Interesting, did you know that when war was declared in 39 a lot the blokes that volunteered were on the dole.
    Also the number of people unemployed is five times greater than the total number of vacant jobs. I think you are being a tad rabid Rob.
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  6. #1791
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Gary , your PM box is full.
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  7. #1792
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Gary , your PM box is full.
    Not now it's not:-)
    Trump, a man who can't hold a coherent thought till the end of the sentence.

  8. #1793
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Interesting, did you know that when war was declared in 39 a lot the blokes that volunteered were on the dole.
    Also the number of people unemployed is five times greater than the total number of vacant jobs. I think you are being a tad rabid Rob.
    Are you sure about that Gary?? When I was at school we learned that the first National unemployment scheme was introduced in Australia in 1945.
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  9. #1794
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    It was called the Suso Greg, Sustenance Allowance and just enough to keep body and soul together, 10/- a week for a single man IIRC. A wage then was around 3 pound a week, that what my maternal grandfather paid his carpenters.

    Dad joined in 1939, the first real job for 10 years, 3 meals a day and new boots.
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  10. #1795
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    In the 20s it was called the "susso" .

  11. #1796
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    It was called the Suso Greg, Sustenance Allowance and just enough to keep body and soul together, 10/- a week for a single man IIRC. A wage then was around 3 pound a week, that what my maternal grandfather paid his carpenters.

    Dad joined in 1939, the first real job for 10 years, 3 meals a day and new boots.
    So nothing like being on the dole then.
    Larks

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  12. #1797
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Very much like it, $173 is considerably less than half the average rent and about the same percentage of average weekly earnings for a carpenter today as the susso.
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  13. #1798
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Very much like it, $173 is considerably less than half the average rent and about the same percentage of average weekly earnings for a carpenter today as the susso.
    However, I suspect Rob is referring to the stereotypical "dole bludger", that group of people with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and belief that the "system owes them" and others who are otherwise quite capable of employ but who are happier to take a prolonged tax payer funded holiday and have no qualms about sticking their mugs in front of the camera's of whatever second rate current affairs program wants to show them up for what they are.

    As opposed to those people who really are in need of social support and "sustainment", who struggle to put enough food on the table for the kids and to pay their essential services bills. Those who must make a decision about whether it will be better this week to put $10.00 of fuel in the car so that they can get to the shops and drop their kids at school and then go to Centrelink to please their need, or to put the $10.00 into a gift for their child's birthday.
    Larks

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  14. #1799
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    The 'stereotypical' dole bludger is largely a media product. Many who may fit the mould have other issues, not least generational unemployment, drug and mental problems, no accommodation, be abuse victims. There are very few "...with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and belief that the "system owes them" And then of course if you're over 45 there's another problem, qualifications or no.


    BTW, I see the Defence minister has not ruled out "military involvement' in Iraq "if the US requests it" of course. Personally I think that that is inevitable. And we could be involved for a very long time.

  15. #1800
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    The 'stereotypical' dole bludger is largely a media product. Many who may fit the mould have other issues, not least generational unemployment, drug and mental problems, no accommodation, be abuse victims. There are very few "...with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement and belief that the "system owes them" And then of course if you're over 45 there's another problem, qualifications or no.
    Have a chat with Kate at the next WBS Jeff, you'll change your opinion on this quickly enough.
    Larks

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  16. #1801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Have a chat with Kate at the next WBS Jeff, you'll change your opinion on this quickly enough.
    I have no doubt of that, if Dad's unemployed , all the brothers and sisters , in fact everyone of acquaintance it takes a remarkable person to get out of the hole and largely the long term unemployed aren't remarkable.... that's why they are long term unemployed. Of course if you are laid off at over 50 and your skills became obsolete with the industry that just went OS you better be remarkable or you will be a dole bludger to quote Rob's charming phrase, for a long time.

    The youth unemployment rate is around 16% depending on the area. The best get jobs, those that don't and get into their 20s with no experience ... and I don't mean bloody work for the dole, are in trouble long term. Being on a work for the dole scheme has proven a negative factor in gaining a job long term. Don't blame the unemployed , the jobs aren't there.

    We need a real government funded full, time properly paid "Green Army", real jobs , real wages, real careers because the business community isn't providing them and it's a failure of capitalism . If these young people aren't given the opportunity to work and to learn how to work they WILL be life time unemployed.

    Blaming dole bludgers is so easy and so damn stupid !
    Last edited by PeterSibley; 08-10-2014 at 08:37 PM.
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  17. #1802
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    It has been commented on, just how much effort and industry and intelligence some people put into studying and understanding the "system" and how to work it and access every possible available payment, often coming up with payment claim options that some of the Centrelink staff haven't even been aware of.
    Larks

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  18. #1803
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    The time to get steamed up about dole bludgers are when there are jobs for them to take on.
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  19. #1804
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    It has been commented on, just how much effort and industry and intelligence some people put into studying and understanding the "system" and how to work it and access every possible available payment, often coming up with payment claim options that some of the Centrelink staff haven't even been aware of.
    I'd suggest that yes, there are those that work the system, just there are crooked bankers, contractors, salesmen , dentists , politicians and investment advisers.
    It also seems that the damage that particular tiny minority of dole manipulators do is very little compared to the others I mentioned.
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  20. #1805
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Have a chat with Kate at the next WBS Jeff, you'll change your opinion on this quickly enough.
    I do believe there's a website on that subject Greg, but I do know a long term coal face employee of whatever the CES is called these days, but I acknowledge what you say. She says her clientele's attitudes changes constantly depending on the drug that's cheapest at the time. Ice is not good.

  21. #1806
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    Entitlement eh? I note that the lobby for company directors is attempting to have their governance responsibilities altered so as not to be suable for their decisions. Then there's the entitlements of politicians; political advisors, press bureaus, government aircraft……… That's not a one way street. And don't let me get started on 'insider trading' and who knows what and when.

  22. #1807
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portland View Post
    Jeez , I'm glad we don't rely on wind power.
    The turbines on the wind farms here haven't moved for days !.
    Wonthaggi ones have been OK, there's a good breeze even today. Hmm, sun's out too, I might go sailing if I can catch the tide.

  23. #1808
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I have no doubt of that, if Dad's unemployed , all the brothers and sisters , in fact everyone of acquaintance it takes a remarkable person to get out of the hole and largely the long term unemployed aren't remarkable.... that's why they are long term unemployed. Of course if you are laid off at over 50 and your skills became obsolete with the industry that just went OS you better be remarkable or you will be a dole bludger to quote Rob's charming phrase, for a long time.

    The youth unemployment rate is around 16% depending on the area. The best get jobs, those that don't and get into their 20s with no experience ... and I don't mean bloody work for the dole, are in trouble long term. Being on a work for the dole scheme has proven a negative factor in gaining a job long term. Don't blame the unemployed , the jobs aren't there.

    We need a real government funded full, time properly paid "Green Army", real jobs , real wages, real careers because the business community isn't providing them and it's a failure of capitalism . If these young people aren't given the opportunity to work and to learn how to work they WILL be life time unemployed.

    Blaming dole bludgers is so easy and so damn stupid !

    I don't believe anyone is "blaming" dole bludgers Peter, but they don't earn much sympathy when there are so many very real social welfare needs out there that aren't being supported as well as they could if funds weren't so diluted by this who could actually work.

    As for providing jobs, it doesn't come down to the Government creating jobs, but it does come down to the Government creating the opportunity for private enterprise to create jobs. You may or may not recall me complaining about the lack of any support for small business and manufacturing in general in years past and the development of policies, costs and roadblocks causing the obstruction of such.

    We hear a lot of "employer" bashing on this thread and on a regular basis, forgetting entirely that "employees" require "employers". The only other option to being an "employee" being to be self employed or to become an "employer".
    If you really want to support the creation of real careers and apprenticeships and sustainable employment: - as well as campaigning for and supporting policies that promote development of private enterprise, a rethink on the current role that Unions play in our various industries would be a good place to start.
    Larks

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  24. #1809
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    The damage any of them do is significant. Its why we have to have police, corporate regulators and dare I say, soldiers.

    There are those, the significant majority, who always do what is good for society and those who are the crooks you refer to... who always look to take. Then there's the third or so of the people who could go either way. The issue is to shepherd them towards the good side... rather than the take. Society goes to pot if too many of them join with the bludgers.... and that is what our government is about at the moment... moving society towards a contribute mentality, away from Labor's entitlement / take mentality. That's why you will see unions brought to the same level of accountability as public companies. That's why you'll see people working for the dole.
    An argument for job creation schemes !.... no one sane would live on $173 pw instead of a wage .
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    "entitlements of politicians; political advisors, press bureaus, government aircraft….."
    There are more journalists employed as political PR hacks than in any other media. All on the public purse. Let the parties pay above a set staff limit. And that includes labor which has had an excess of spinners as well documented.

  26. #1811
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I don't believe anyone is "blaming" dole bludgers Peter, but they don't earn much sympathy when there are so many very real social welfare needs out there that aren't being

    As for providing jobs, it doesn't come down to the Government creating jobs, but it does come down to the Government creating the opportunity for private enterprise to create jobs. You may or may not recall me complaining about the lack of any support for small business and manufacturing in general in years past and the development of policies, costs and roadblocks causing the obstruction of such.

    We hear a lot of "employer" bashing on this thread and on a regular basis, forgetting entirely that "employees" require "employers". The only other option to being an "employee" being to be self employed or to become an "employer".
    If you really want to support the creation of real careers and apprenticeships and sustainable employment: - as well as campaigning for and supporting policies that promote development of private enterprise, a rethink on the current role that Unions play in our various industries would be a good place to start.
    Well Abbott has his chance increase training for apprenticeships but to it helps if manufacturing industry isn't going OS and there comes the argument for the Reserve to take on a new requirement, not 2.5% inflation but a .70 cent US dollar . From that all else would flow.

    I reckon dole bludgers are a soft target, no power and no jobs . They are very easy to kick and then Abetz wants to put them on 1/2 time income ! That is going to be a great boost for prostitution, petty crime and drug dealing if it gets through.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    "entitlements of politicians; political advisors, press bureaus, government aircraft….."
    There are more journalists employed as political PR hacks than in any other media. All on the public purse. Let the parties pay above a set staff limit. And that includes labor which has had an excess of spinners as well documented.

    +1 . That's the real sucking at the government tit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    What's the $173 supposed to be?

    single, no children $510.50

    and then there's the 55, or is it 75 different allowances that can go on top... some of which cancel out others. That's a per fortnight rate, btw. Half of that sure ain't $173
    That shows how long it's been !
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  29. #1814
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    Unemployment has jumped to a 12-year high of 6.4 per cent, despite the loss of only 300 jobs.
    Bureau of Statistics figures show the jobless rate surged from June's reading of 6 per cent to 6.4 per cent last month - the worst reading since August 2002.
    Young people have been particularly hard-hit, with unemployment for 15-24-year-olds hitting 14.1 per cent - the highest level since October 2001.
    The jobless rate for the 15-19-year-old subset jumped even more to 20.4 per cent - the highest since April 1997 - and was 30.1 per cent amongst those looking for full-time work.
    US passes on jobless problem

    For the first time in more than seven years, Australia has a higher unemployment rate than the US - and it's no accident.

    Overall an estimated 300 jobs were lost, but the jobless rate was also pushed higher by a rise in the proportion of people in work or looking for it.
    The so-called participation rate rose from 64.7 to 64.8 per cent, a possible indication that people who had been discouraged from looking for work are now coming back into the jobs market.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-0...-64-pc/5654926
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  30. #1815
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    Ian, you've reminded me of the one time I walked into the CES in Alice Springs, back in about 1984ish, looking for a job rather than the dole. The consultant that I was sat down with went through all of the forms and was encouraging me to also register for the dole and also encouraged me to tick the box that said: "Are you of Aboriginal or Torres Straight Islander descent?" At the time there was an incentive to increase ATSI employment rates and some job adds specifically stated that "ATSI applicants only need apply". It changed shortly afterwards to read "ATSI applicants are encouraged to apply".

    I did neither (i.e. apply for dole or claim to be ATSI descent), I didn't fancy taking the dole knowing how much work was out there and I didn't fancy trying to take jobs that were being specifically developed to try and encourage employment for a challenging enough employment sector as it was.

    I walked out, went down to the nearest building site the next morning with a water bottle and asked if they needed any labour. Ended up working there for 2 months, then for a plumber for a few months before being offered a job through my football mates at TAA.
    Larks

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    I must admit, I was on the dole for 3 weeks, at the end of 1973.

    .... but then I jumped on the mail train, moved to Sydney and got a job.
    I was on it a few times, early on my zucchini crops got trashed by wind and hail twice in a row then later a house job fell through and it took a while to find another. The family lived at less than the dole a few times when starting micro business ventures but we don't pay rent.

    It was a problem while I was growing small crops because at 50 hours + a week I wasn't really available for other work.
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    That's how most people get entry level jobs, they know someone.
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  33. #1818
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    How do you fight an idea Greg? I'd think that ensuring the idea has no, or very little basis in any fact would be a terrific start.

    I'm sure you wouldn't doubt that the actions of Western nations over the past 100 years in the Middle East have come home to roost in the form of Islamic fundamentalism. By ignoring the realities of tribalism of that region we've only done ourselves a great disservice. TE Lawrence was brilliant at reading this social landscape and it seems we've had too few of any influence on Western foreign policy since who have been able to do as well as he did.

    The decision to invade Iraq was an almighty cluster root of Biblical proportions. I was in Doha in 2003 and talked to locals (a very multi-cultural mob) and they basically said that Iraq would fragment and be a conflict zone for decades, and this is precisely what has happened. IMHO Obama is correct for keeping his distance as much as possible and I'd think that air strikes will be very limited and very strategic in their scope. I note that they're being conducted in concert with humanitarian aid drops.

    If I were to use another analogy, Islamic fundamentalism is a bit like a virus: There's no 'cure' as such and the illness has to run its course. But giving up our freedoms, in particular habeas corpus and the right to a presumption of innocence, is a bridge too far. Way too far.

    I left this alone because I really don't think I can articulate my thoughts on this very well, but like you I have spent quite some time (perhaps more?) in Islamic countries, Turkey, Syria, Ethiopia, Sudan, Eritrea, Jordan, Egypt and Israel (yes, there are Moslems in Israel living quite happily side by side with Jews and all sorts of other religions).

    But I raise it again because I'd like to know more and think it worth exploring.

    I don't believe that the West can be blamed for giving rise to Islamic fundamentalism, as you seem to suggest Duncan. It has been around for centuries, though perhaps not using that term.

    The pursuit of the spread of Islam is no different to the pursuit of the spread of Christianity and, whilst the greed of the West for controlling oil has certainly been seen as a catalyst, I think it has been used more as an excuse for fundamentalist groups to preach and promote hatred and pursue a more aggressive approach to the spread of Islam than moderate Moslems would otherwise support and which has been happening largely peacefully and successfully since Mohamed.

    Agressive Islamic fundamentalism has been popping up in history throughout that time, as has aggressive Christian fundamentalism (as far as I can read into history anyway - Crusaders anyone?).

    However the transportability of that aggression has become so much easier and we are no longer a country largely protected by our isolation and no matter how peaceful or accepting or understanding or loving we may all be, we are seen as the enemies of Islam.

    Have you read of ISIS and the Yazidi?? I can't see how the invasion of Iraq or anything the west has done could be seen as the catalyst for this:
    Islamic State militias are on a conquer and convert mission, targeting religious and ethnic groups which do not fit with their extremist ideologies.Christine Allison, the Ibrahim Ahmed Professor of Kurdish Studies at the University of Exeter told CBS News the Yazidi have been persecuted for centuries because of their religious beliefs.
    One theory is some extremists regard them as devil worshippers.
    A central figure in the religion is a fallen angel named Malak Taus or Shaitan as the Yazidi refer to them, which also means devil in Arabic.
    “But it’s not devil worship in any way we would recognise,” she told CBS. “The Yazidis themselves don’t in any way worship him as an evil figure who has to be appeased.”

    The Yazidi draw upon multiple traditions including Christianity and Islam and their beliefs are regarded as one of the most complex religions in the world.

    They also believe in reincarnation, perform baptisms, circumcisions and animal sacrifices, according to Time.
    The name “Izidis” literally translates to “worshippers of God.”

    Or do you think this might be suitable for a thread of its own to get a wider view and opinions?? I'm not sure that it'd remain very objective in a wider audience for long ........ I hope it does here
    Last edited by Larks; 08-10-2014 at 10:57 PM.
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    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  34. #1819
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    15,448

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    That's how most people get entry level jobs, they know someone.
    Not really Peter. However here's a girl who didn't know anyone until she went out and met them....and that led to something else.

    It's not about knowing someone, it's about making the effort to get out and meet them in the first place.......it's amazing where things can lead for anyone simply willing to make the effort.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  35. #1820
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    73,977

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Not really Peter. However here's a girl who didn't know anyone until she went out and met them....and that led to something else.

    It's not about knowing someone, it's about making the effort to get out and meet them in the first place.......it's amazing where things can lead for anyone simply willing to make the effort.

    In our little town of 15 000 most of the jobs kids get are via family or family friends.

    ''.it's amazing where things can lead for anyone simply willing to make the effort.''

    the smart kids go off to uni and TAFE in the city, the next 33% get jobs with family or friends and very occasionally through advertised positions ... but not usually. The kids who are left aren't the smartest or the most inspired , they're ones who used to work at one of the 4 sawmills , there's one left. Or the fruit processor... closed or in bananas. Panama disease has knocked that back by 90%. There are only so many jobs mowing lawns for rich retirees.

    Blaming the kids who have strong backs as their primary asset kind of rubs me the wrong way after a while, in fact I get heartily sick of it.

    The kids with get up and go DO get jobs, as do the smart ones, the pretty ones , the intelligent ones BUT, that leaves some sitting there with sweet FA in their futures and having ###### like Abetz tell them that 50% time on income and 50 % without is good for them . Some kids aren't smart or pretty .

    I think they'd prefer a job at $700 pw ! Maybe the Minister for Employment could organise something ??? but I seriously doubt it. It's easier to call them bludgers.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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