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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #17396
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Why is everyone so damn scared of having a say on what amounts to quite a substantial change to centuries worth of the fabric of our social structure?

    The money argument is a red herring and simply doesn’t wash when we see what is wasted to a much larger degree in other areas that no one makes a song and dance about.

    I am yet to see a campaign for anything run entirely on negativity and accusations succeed, if we as a society want this to get up it needs a significant turnaround to be a campaign about the positivity of such a change.

    I also don’t believe the fear campaign of homophobic slurs and attacks. At the moment the only aggressive comments, slurs and accusations seem to be coming from the SSM lobby and that is going to have the effect of turning off support and any sense of sympathy that many voters may currently have.
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  2. #17397
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I note the ABS is calling the postal plebiscite a 'Survey'. Being very careful with their terms as their integrity is at stake. In any case the result of this rather unscientific opinion poll or 'Survey' is likely to be disputed, no matter what the result. And then of course parts of the LibNats will reject it anyway because they can. It's going to be interesting but likely rather nasty, I note Bronny is already equating it with bestiality.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...603486246599ZH

    Of course with Kimmy and Donald having a pi55ing contest who knows if the whole affair will become inconsequential very rapidly.

  3. #17398
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    A paywall on the Oz page Jeff.
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  4. #17399
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Why is everyone so damn scared of having a say on what amounts to quite a substantial change to centuries worth of the fabric of our social structure?

    The money argument is a red herring and simply doesn’t wash when we see what is wasted to a much larger degree in other areas that no one makes a song and dance about.

    I am yet to see a campaign for anything run entirely on negativity and accusations succeed, if we as a society want this to get up it needs a significant turnaround to be a campaign about the positivity of such a change.

    I also don’t believe the fear campaign of homophobic slurs and attacks. At the moment the only aggressive comments, slurs and accusations seem to be coming from the SSM lobby and that is going to have the effect of turning off support and any sense of sympathy that many voters may currently have.

    I haven't seen any nasties at all thus far Greg.
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  5. #17400
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I'll see what I can find Peter, but meanwhile….
    "Maybe the most irritating aspect of the postal plebiscite is that the government has no precedent to implement it. The most immediately comparable scenario occurred in 1974 when the ABS conducted a phone poll about what the national anthem should be. Only 60,000 people were surveyed, and in the end the song they voted for wasn't even selected."

    This isn't what I'd call an unbiased site but it's the best I can do
    https://www.vice.com/en_au/article/3...tal-plebiscite

  6. #17401
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I'll see what I can find Peter, but meanwhile….
    "Maybe the most irritating aspect of the postal plebiscite is that the government has no precedent to implement it. The most immediately comparable scenario occurred in 1974 when the ABS conducted a phone poll about what the national anthem should be. Only 60,000 people were surveyed, and in the end the song they voted for wasn't even selected."
    That's the thing about plebiscites, they're non binding , something Ian seems unwilling to acknowledge.
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  7. #17402
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Ian is not exactly unbiased himself, never has been. But it's more about his dislike of labour than anything else, a dislike I share BTW.

  8. #17403
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    That's the trouble with Australian politics, you have to choose the "lesser of two weevils''. The Abbot influence still hangs over the Libs and it's a scent many find objectionable so they will wander over to the other tent.
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  9. #17404
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Australia will enter conflict if North Korea attacks the US

    Australia will come to America's aid if North Korea launches an attack against the US, Malcolm Turnbull has confirmed.

    Source: AAP

    1 HOUR AGO UPDATED 11 MINS AGO

    The prime minister discussed the unfolding situation with US Vice President Mike Pence on Thursday night.
    "We have an ANZUS agreement and if there is an attack on Australia or the United States then each of us will come to the other's aid," Mr Turnbull told 3AW radio on Friday.
    "In terms of defence we are joined at the hip."
    Asked about Tony Abbott's call for Australia to urgently consider a missile defence system, Mr Turnbull said the country is constantly reviewing its position.
    He said the advice from Defence is there is a no benefit to deploying a US-style 'Terminal High Altitude Area Defence' (THAAD) system.
    "The reason for that is that THAAD's designed to provide protection for relatively small areas against short-to-intermediate range missiles," he said.








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  10. #17405
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    That's the thing about plebiscites, they're non binding , something Ian seems unwilling to acknowledge.

    But everyone seems to forget that the non binding element cuts both ways.

    I may be misreading him, but Turnbull seems to be in favour of SSM - so if the vote turns out against it without being a huge margin, he may well decide that there is greater good in implementing it than being bound by the vote if he can gain bipartisan agreement on the terms and conditions of introducing it. I would hope there is considerable thought put into the impacts of introducing it without considering every angle of impact on its introduction.

    Turnbull knows the issue won’t go away and, from a political game-playing standpoint, I doubt whether he’d want Shorten to be remembered for introducing it. Better that he does it but does it properly.

    Marriage as it is now is an institution that has evolved over centuries and, in the Catholic Church at least it is one of the seven blessed sacraments so these changes to marriage are not insignificant to the Catholic Church.

    No matter how much some of you may dislike that church, politicians realise the significance of this and it is not something that any politician is going to ignore or take lately, so Shorten declaring that he would simply legislate SSM within the first 100 days of government is complete bollocks. He won’t want to piss off the churches of any denomination.


    Someone elsewhere had commented on the negative impacts of SSM in Canada 10 years on and that we can only hope that Australia learns from their experiences if/when we introduce SSM here and I’ve been looking around to find out what they were referring to. There are a few on-line articles but this one seems to cover it from a “learning from mistakes” standpoint:

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion...ns-from-canada
    Larks

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    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
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  11. #17406
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Australia will enter conflict if North Korea attacks the US

    Australia will come to America's aid if North Korea launches an attack against the US, Malcolm Turnbull has confirmed.

    Source: AAP

    1 HOUR AGO UPDATED 11 MINS AGO

    The prime minister discussed the unfolding situation with US Vice President Mike Pence on Thursday night.
    "We have an ANZUS agreement and if there is an attack on Australia or the United States then each of us will come to the other's aid," Mr Turnbull told 3AW radio on Friday.
    "In terms of defence we are joined at the hip."
    Asked about Tony Abbott's call for Australia to urgently consider a missile defence system, Mr Turnbull said the country is constantly reviewing its position.
    He said the advice from Defence is there is a no benefit to deploying a US-style 'Terminal High Altitude Area Defence' (THAAD) system.
    "The reason for that is that THAAD's designed to provide protection for relatively small areas against short-to-intermediate range missiles," he said.








    Would you expect anything else Peter? If we were to ignore the ANZUS treaty under a US/NK conflict we would be a stand alone country in any threat to Australia. Given the resource rich nature of Australia, our ANZUS alliance is what offers us the best passive deterrent right now so comments like these are designed to reinforce our commitment to that alliance. When it comes to the crunch the nature of that commitment could be different to what you might be envisaging.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  12. #17407
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I have no idea of what our commitment would be but if this chaos heats up it could be very nasty.... if like the last chapter of the Korean war,

    Or over very quickly with nuclear weapons. Either way, a nightmare situation.
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  13. #17408
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I have no idea of what our commitment would be but if this chaos heats up it could be very nasty.... if like the last chapter of the Korean war,

    Or over very quickly with nuclear weapons. Either way, a nightmare situation.
    It is indeed, very scary.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  14. #17409
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Yes, no sign of a plebiscite or a survey when the PM decides to go to war…………………….



    Well hello Donald………………..

  15. #17410
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Captain's call.
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  16. #17411
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Yes, no sign of a plebiscite or a survey when the PM decides to go to war…………………….



    Well hello Donald………………..
    I see quite a difference between making a significant change to a centuries old structure to the fabric of our society and reinforcing our commitment to the ANZUS treaty Jeff.

    Again, I don’t see why everyone is scared of having a say on this issue. I’m looking forward to it and I appreciate the democratic opportunity to have an impact on the future of the structure of our society.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  17. #17412
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Can you explain why it's a plebiscite rather than a referendum Greg ? A referendum being binding on Parliament while a plebiscite is not. That choice makes me suspicious.
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  18. #17413
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    That choice was a deliberate one by Tony trading on his own political power base rather than a religious objection I reckon.


    I was just being somewhat Ironic Greg, Howard didn't have one to change it a few years ago, why do we need one to change it back?
    That said I'd be quite happy to have a say in quite a few things the pollies seen comfortable to decide. Like a banking enquiry for instance, or the actual long term status of the Manus and Naruan detainees, or maybe the meddling that's resulted in our power situation, or perhaps the matter of the Party donors, OS and local, especially after the latest Vic. mafia connection. Although I must say it's been the Labour party that has the record in those associations.
    Yes I don't mind casting an opinion, bring it on, but I'd much prefer to be casting a vote.

  19. #17414
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    A good recycling story from up this way, interesting in light of the recent 4 Corners story.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-0...lution/8785696
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

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  21. #17416
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Can you explain why it's a plebiscite rather than a referendum Greg ? A referendum being binding on Parliament while a plebiscite is not. That choice makes me suspicious.
    Why on earth would I be able to explain what goes on in the halls of politics and the minds of politicians Peter?


    Jeff, what do you mean by Howard changing it and needing a plebiscite to change it back? The concept of marriage being between a man and a woman has been around for centuries as far as I’m aware.
    Larks

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  22. #17417
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Howard made it exclusively between a man and a woman. The previous wording didn't mention gender at all.

    Here you go.
    Less than an hour after Prime Minister John Howard announced the changes to the Marriage Act, the government rushed legislation enabling the changes into parliament.
    Mr Howard said the Marriage Act would be changed to include a definition of marriage as the `voluntarily entered-into union of a man and a woman to exclusion of all others'.
    The laws currently do not define marriage.
    ``We've decided to insert this into the Marriage Act to make it very plain that that is our view of a marriage and to also make it very plain that the definition of a marriage is something that should rest in the hands ultimately of the parliament of the nation,'' Mr Howard told reporters.
    ''(It should) not over time be subject to redefinition or change by courts, it is something that ought to be expressed through the elected representatives of the country.''

    There it is, mostly his personal prejudice I reckon.

  23. #17418
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I see quite a difference between making a significant change to a centuries old structure to the fabric of our society and reinforcing our commitment to the ANZUS treaty Jeff.

    Again, I don’t see why everyone is scared of having a say on this issue. I’m looking forward to it and I appreciate the democratic opportunity to have an impact on the future of the structure of our society.
    Not everyone, just the politicians. The majority of Australians either don't care either way or are okay with it.
    That was an interesting article you linked by the way.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

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  24. #17419
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    A pity the elected representatives of the country can't be found .
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  25. #17420
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Howard made it exclusively between a man and a woman. The previous wording didn't mention gender at all.

    Here you go.
    Less than an hour after Prime Minister John Howard announced the changes to the Marriage Act, the government rushed legislation enabling the changes into parliament.
    Mr Howard said the Marriage Act would be changed to include a definition of marriage as the `voluntarily entered-into union of a man and a woman to exclusion of all others'.
    The laws currently do not define marriage.
    ``We've decided to insert this into the Marriage Act to make it very plain that that is our view of a marriage and to also make it very plain that the definition of a marriage is something that should rest in the hands ultimately of the parliament of the nation,'' Mr Howard told reporters.
    ''(It should) not over time be subject to redefinition or change by courts, it is something that ought to be expressed through the elected representatives of the country.''

    There it is, mostly his personal prejudice I reckon.
    I must have missed the postal vote on that one.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Not everyone, just the politicians. The majority of Australians either don't care either way or are okay with it.
    That was an interesting article you linked by the way.
    Well I’m getting the distinct impression that the SSM lobbyists and most people on this thread are scared of this plebiscite.


    Re referendum V plebiscite though, I have a question for anyone who may have a better understanding of the referendum option:

    If a referendum is binding, I take it that a YES vote means that the government must change the act to allow same sex marriage, but that it also means a NO vote for SSM would also be binding and the government could not change the act based on that outcome.

    But how long is the outcome of the referendum valid? i.e. does it eventually expire and/or is there a time period that must elapse before a second referendum could be held if it is felt that attitudes have progressed?

    And: if it is binding, does that also mean a new government is bound by it?

    What I’m getting at is: if Turnbull held a referendum and the answer was NO to same sex marriage, does that also mean that Labor could not introduce it at the next election?

    If so, given party politics with the Libs, that may be a reasonably valid reason for Turnbull (if he is supportive for SSM against the party policy) to go to a plebiscite rather than a referendum. IE - not to have it completely taken off the table for any future government or PM.
    Larks

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    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  28. #17423
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    A question for a constitutional lawyer or someone with better Google fu than me Greg !
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Referenda have mostly been for constitutional matters I think, but there were two on introducing conscription during WW1, both lost.
    http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/fact-sheets/fs161.aspx

    And from Anthony Green on non-constitutional referenda.
    http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/...australia.html

    The Marriage act is not a constitutional matter, and as such if a a new government came in say, next week I do not think there is a legal impediment to another in a months time, and certainly if they had the numbers they could change it like Howard did.

    BTW, I don't think anyone is afraid of the decision either way, it will come along eventually. The fear is that being just a survey it has none of the legal protections of an Electoral Commission run affair. Whether then senate should have been so obdurate is another matter of course.

  30. #17425
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Type this into Youtbe.
    Tim Minchin - I Still Call Australia Homophobic (Marriage Equality Protest Song)
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Well I’m getting the distinct impression that the SSM lobbyists and most people on this thread are scared of this plebiscite.


    Re referendum V plebiscite though, I have a question for anyone who may have a better understanding of the referendum option:

    If a referendum is binding, I take it that a YES vote means that the government must change the act to allow same sex marriage, but that it also means a NO vote for SSM would also be binding and the government could not change the act based on that outcome.

    But how long is the outcome of the referendum valid? i.e. does it eventually expire and/or is there a time period that must elapse before a second referendum could be held if it is felt that attitudes have progressed?

    And: if it is binding, does that also mean a new government is bound by it?

    What I’m getting at is: if Turnbull held a referendum and the answer was NO to same sex marriage, does that also mean that Labor could not introduce it at the next election?

    If so, given party politics with the Libs, that may be a reasonably valid reason for Turnbull (if he is supportive for SSM against the party policy) to go to a plebiscite rather than a referendum. IE - not to have it completely taken off the table for any future government or PM.
    Not scared just not seeing the point. If Howard can change the marriage act without a plebiscite why do we need one to change it now?
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

  32. #17427
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    BTW Greg, #17405.
    Legal Marriage as such is a civil matter, celebrants religious or not are licensed by the government.
    I understand the sensitivity but there is not an established church in Aus. and good thing too. I remember the bad old days of the Catholic and the rest divide.

  33. #17428
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

  34. #17429
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Howard made it exclusively between a man and a woman. The previous wording didn't mention gender at all.

    Here you go.
    Less than an hour after Prime Minister John Howard announced the changes to the Marriage Act, the government rushed legislation enabling the changes into parliament.
    Mr Howard said the Marriage Act would be changed to include a definition of marriage as the `voluntarily entered-into union of a man and a woman to exclusion of all others'.
    The laws currently do not define marriage.
    ``We've decided to insert this into the Marriage Act to make it very plain that that is our view of a marriage and to also make it very plain that the definition of a marriage is something that should rest in the hands ultimately of the parliament of the nation,'' Mr Howard told reporters.
    ''(It should) not over time be subject to redefinition or change by courts, it is something that ought to be expressed through the elected representatives of the country.''

    There it is, mostly his personal prejudice I reckon.

    So was same sex marriage legal prior to the inclusion of the definition?


    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    BTW Greg, #17405.
    Legal Marriage as such is a civil matter, celebrants religious or not are licensed by the government.
    I understand the sensitivity but there is not an established church in Aus. and good thing too. I remember the bad old days of the Catholic and the rest divide.
    True, but as I said earlier (and I use the Catholic Church as an example as I can’t talk for other religious groups) within the Catholic Church marriage is also a blessed sacrament and it is foolish for the SSM lobby group to ignore that fact in trying to gain acceptance of the change to the marriage act.

    Treat them as two seperate entities: marriage under Australian Law and Marriage as a sacrament within the church. Keep the aim of achieving legal union of same sex couples under Australian law seperate and let the churches and religious groups follow if they will in their own good time.

    Blatantly ignoring the churches and condemning their beliefs is where the mischief lies and where this whole thing is coming undone.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  35. #17430
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I don't think that any compulsion is considered for churches to marry anyone, but I may be wrong. Clergy of all stamps have been declining to marry some people for as long as I can remember.

    Meantime who knows where we will be by next wednesday at present. Good luck to the world.

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