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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #17711
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post

    A couple of things dont don't ring true at the outset of this article Peter. Firstly my understanding is that this is very much about the social and health issues of drugs - both in the exceptional cost to the public purse of health care for drug addicts, the impact on families and children and the crime associated with the meths epidemic.

    also this is factually incorrect : "Plans included stripping people off their disability pensions" as far as I am aware there is no loss of welfare income, it is provided by debit card instead of cash (as in instead of cashable credit/chq).
    Larks

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  2. #17712
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    A survey quoted this morning suggests that 97% of those surveyed support the drug test for new welfare recipients, 3% do not. I don’t know the size of the survey or who did it and where, but if legit' that’s a pretty substantial amount of support for something with no relevance.
    My take from that survey is that just 3% of the respondents were on the dole, or thought it likely that they would soon be.

    As an aside, it's worth remembering that about 45% of all households are recipients some form of federal govt welfare payment. But it's usually just the drugged out layabouts who are thought of as being '"on welfare".

  3. #17713
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    A couple of things dont don't ring true at the outset of this article Peter. Firstly my understanding is that this is very much about the social and health issues of drugs - both in the exceptional cost to the public purse of health care for drug addicts, the impact on families and children and the crime associated with the meths epidemic.

    also this is factually incorrect : "Plans included stripping people off their disability pensions" as far as I am aware there is no loss of welfare income, it is provided by debit card instead of cash (as in instead of cashable credit/chq).
    You appear to be correct, I hope you are .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  4. #17714
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Lets wait and see how it goes then, that's probably why it's a "trial".
    Or we could look at other places where its been tried. I think its a Conservative, lets attack the dregs of society and push them off welfare thing myself. Its dressed up all pretty, but its pretty well recognised that forced rehab is fairly futile.

  5. #17715
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    A couple of things dont don't ring true at the outset of this article Peter. Firstly my understanding is that this is very much about the social and health issues of drugs - both in the exceptional cost to the public purse of health care for drug addicts, the impact on families and children and the crime associated with the meths epidemic.

    also this is factually incorrect : "Plans included stripping people off their disability pensions" as far as I am aware there is no loss of welfare income, it is provided by debit card instead of cash (as in instead of cashable credit/chq).
    What do you think happens when the druggies fail to comply with the compulsory rehab?

  6. #17716
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    What do you think happens when the druggies fail to comply with the compulsory rehab?
    Would you rather have the government do nothing? I see it as very similar, if not the same, as the indigenous community intervention which worked where it was most needed to work. The difference being that instead of introducing a blanket cashless welfare system it becomes targeted at those who most need it and who’s lives and families are most impacted by drugs. The downfall of the intervention, as I’ve said before, was that it swept up both those that really needed it, i.e. those who were directly impacted by severe drug and alcohol issues, as well as those indigenous welfare recipients who were not impacted by alcohol and drugs but who came under the intervention umbrella because they identified as ATSI.

    Talking to those much closer to this issue, it would seem that reducing the health purse burden is one of the key drivers of this initiative. What Alex Kodak does seem to get right is that it’s not just about stopping welfare recipients spending welfare on drugs, it is about getting them off welfare and into meaningful employment.

    The difficult task is dealing with that guy who doesn’t want to work and who wants to spend his day on the couch smoking 15 bongs a day and then driving stoned to the Centrelink office in order to keep his welfare payments going........
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  7. #17717
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Maybe I'm overly cynical. Although I doubt it. I don't readily see the guys driving this as having the best interests of the druggies on welfare at heart. I think its primarily about getting people off welfare, and reducing the reported level of unemployment. I think that a genuine program to assist people with drug problems would look a lot different. Yes i do think the government should be doing something. Just not this.

  8. #17718
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Would you rather have the government do nothing? I see it as very similar, if not the same, as the indigenous community intervention which worked where it was most needed to work. The difference being that instead of introducing a blanket cashless welfare system it becomes targeted at those who most need it and who’s lives and families are most impacted by drugs. The downfall of the intervention, as I’ve said before, was that it swept up both those that really needed it, i.e. those who were directly impacted by severe drug and alcohol issues, as well as those indigenous welfare recipients who were not impacted by alcohol and drugs but who came under the intervention umbrella because they identified as ATSI.

    Talking to those much closer to this issue, it would seem that reducing the health purse burden is one of the key drivers of this initiative. What Alex Kodak does seem to get right is that it’s not just about stopping welfare recipients spending welfare on drugs, it is about getting them off welfare and into meaningful employment.

    The difficult task is dealing with that guy who doesn’t want to work and who wants to spend his day on the couch smoking 15 bongs a day and then driving stoned to the Centrelink office in order to keep his welfare payments going........
    It will be interesting to see what burglary, prostitution and petty crime rates do as a result of this. Addicts WANT their fix and will do most anything to get it.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  9. #17719
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asap View Post
    As an aside, it's worth remembering that about 45% of all households are recipients some form of federal govt welfare payment. But it's usually just the drugged out layabouts who are thought of as being '"on welfare".
    This is con trick by the government, which the left has collaborated in with glee.

    The actual course of events:

    1. Introduce a new big tax on nearly everything (GST)
    2. To make it palatable, give some of it back to those hit hardest (it's regressive, so that's the poor, and families, because families have the highest irreducible costs)
    3. Wait a couple of years, then re-label the return of some of this tax as "middle class welfare"...

    The left loves it for two reasons. One, much of the money confiscated from the wage earner via the GST is returned to the wife, as a social engineering exercise, in pursuit of the agenda of making wives as independent of husbands as possible, and Two, the easy political capital available from the usual divisive rhetoric which suggests that "middle class" = rich = people to have their money confiscated.

    It would be good if people who like to consider themselves thoughtful, could avoid being drawn into these nasty games. Leave them to the ABC and the "Think" Tanks, respectively.

  10. #17720
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    This is con trick by the government, which the left has collaborated in with glee.
    , as a social engineering exercise, in pursuit of the agenda of making wives as independent of husbands as possible, .
    Wow. Just wow. I mean, nah, just wow.

  11. #17721
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Maybe I'm overly cynical. Although I doubt it. I don't readily see the guys driving this as having the best interests of the druggies on welfare at heart. I think its primarily about getting people off welfare, and reducing the reported level of unemployment. I think that a genuine program to assist people with drug problems would look a lot different. Yes i do think the government should be doing something. Just not this.
    I don’t think many would disagree with you. But much more than just getting them off welfare and getting the unemployment figures looking good is managing the overall cost of our welfare system.

    There’s no denying that we currently have a welfare system that is unsustainable - we simply can’t afford it - and a large slice of that is the burden on the healthcare system.

    The simple argument is that, while our welfare system is supporting the habits of a not insignificant number of welfare recipients and then providing the ongoing health support necessary to keep them alive, it comes at the cost of providing the levels of support to people more in need and far more deserving of the countries welfare support.

    I have a very good friend (who I think a few here may have met at my 50th). Vietnam vet, long term PTSD and really just starting to enjoy retirement after finally getting his health together. Got the caravan, a decent 4wd, a decent holiday each year - either a cruise or a caravan trip, even a bit of a late mid-life crisis sports car, no more than he deserves and what he and his wife have worked hard for over their lives.

    When their own kids were young they fostered a number of troubled kids over the years, often the more difficult ones that couldn’t find a home elsewhere, and ended up adopting one of the girls. Long story short - with two kids of her own she became a drug addict and is now, completely and purely because of her addiction, in a wheelchair or bedridden and is pretty much completely stuffed physically and mentally and she will be in permanent care for the rest of her life.....I am told the estimate for her care is about $350,000.00 per year....all out of the public purse.....and that’s just one person.

    As for my friend and his wife, obviously no longer young or in the very best of health - they now have had to take on her children (ages about 14 and 6 I think) as the father is also a drug addict and completely useless. They have had to sell their caravan and sports car and much else besides and kiss goodbye to any more holidays and any personal niceties or time to themselves. (The last bit reminds me sadly of someone else here for who’s circumstances I have always had great sympathy and respect).

    I just wonder how this girls slide into addiction and the current impact on her kids and parents and the public purse could possibly have been avoided and so I think anything like this initiative, for what ever reason, is better than no initiative if it somehow stops the same from happening to another family.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  12. #17722
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    "In pursuit of the agenda of making wives as independent of husbands as possible"

    And given domestic violence figures, including an appalling rate of homicide, so they should be.

    And from what I know it's not about removing SS benefits as much as changing the way the benefit is delivered, ie, a restricted card. At leasy I hope so.
    As a matter of freedoms I do not really like that, patronising is the word, but given it's a conservative government I can see their view. I wonder if cigarettes will be off the menu as well?

  13. #17723
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I know a similar story Greg but can't see anywhere it could have been short circuited, sometimes it's as if there is an invisible script somewhere for people to follow.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  14. #17724
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    It will be interesting to see what burglary, prostitution and petty crime rates do as a result of this. Addicts WANT their fix and will do most anything to get it.
    This could stand on it's own as a definition of "out of touch"
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  15. #17725
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Ya reckon Ian? Care to explain your inside knowledge ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  16. #17726
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Oh he's been talking to politicians again, take no notice………………..

  17. #17727
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    It will be interesting to see what burglary, prostitution and petty crime rates do as a result of this. Addicts WANT their fix and will do most anything to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    This could stand on it's own as a definition of "out of touch"
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Ya reckon Ian? Care to explain your inside knowledge ?
    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Oh he's been talking to politicians again, take no notice………………..

    Actually, talking to someone who is very much closer to all of this at the coal front on a daily basis than anyone you are likely to meet, the risk of increased crime it is not considered a significant threat as you are talking about a relatively small proportion of those on welfare and drugs who are likely to turn to crime to get their fix - those that are likely to resort to crime, prostitution etc to get their fix are already resorting to them.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  18. #17728
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I was a youth worker at one stage in our local town, my prediction was based on the kids I met there.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  19. #17729
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    "In pursuit of the agenda of making wives as independent of husbands as possible"

    And given domestic violence figures, including an appalling rate of homicide, so they should be.
    QED.

    Maybe the people who believe in the anti-family social engineering could keep their thoughts in order, and not call the means that are being employed to that end "middle class welfare." Eventually, otherwise, you might get what you're asking for, and the ladies will have the present partial return of their husbands' incomes cut. Because I think that's where it's headed.

  20. #17730
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I was a youth worker at one stage in our local town, my prediction was based on the kids I met there.

    It was actually my first thought too Peter. I remember a nurse who I dated in Alice Springs telling me that they’d see a spike in heavy drug overdoses, glue sniffing admissions and all sorts of other nasty drug related admissions whenever there was a major cannabis bust in town and it became in short supply.

    It reminded me that people seeking drugs are likely to resort to all sorts of measures to get their next fix.


    But I really don’t know and I’m not sure that anyone does really, like I said earlier - lets wait and see, I think it an initiative worth trying.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

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