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Thread: Don't assume tRump loses

  1. #1
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    Default Don't assume tRump loses

    There's a lot of evidence to suggest he will. But...

    An authoritarian holds the reins of power: Don't assume Donald Trump can lose the election

    "How can Donald Trump possibly win?" is a comforting question for the American people and a mainstream news media collectively suffering from PTSD and still trying to navigate the malignant reality of the Age of Trump (and beyond). At its core, the question reflects a deep desire, if not desperation, for a return to "normalcy".

    The question the American people and the country's political class should be asking, however, is this: How could Donald Trump possibly lose the presidency?

    Trump is a fascist and an authoritarian who has repeatedly threatened that any election where he does not win is by definition illegitimate and to be disregarded. He has also suggested that he wants to imprison leading Democrats such as Biden, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama for being part of an attempted "coup" against him.

    As with other authoritarians and fascists, Trump's followers and inner circle believe that he literally embodies the law. Moreover, they have accepted that his word is law and that Trump's personal interests are the same as the nation's interests. For them, Trump is now effectively a king or an emperor. Like other authoritarians and fascists in this century, Trump uses the law as a weapon to give the regime a veneer of democracy and "populist" legitimacy.

    Donald Trump has the highest level of baseline support ó that is, loyalty among his own party and his core supporters ó in the history of modern public opinion polling in America.
    The 2020 election is also taking place in a season of death cased by the coronavirus and the Trump regime's negligence and sabotage of relief efforts. "Coronavirus-fascism" is a unique moment in the country's history and presents another opportunity for Trump, his regime and his followers to break longstanding norms about presidential elections.

    In total, Donald Trump and his regime have many more tools to remain in power than Biden and the Democrats have to remove him. The Biden campaign is well aware of this fact, which is why its spokespeople have been telling Democratic voters to disregard the polls suggesting that a landslide victory on Election Day 2020 is inevitable.

    https://www.salon.com/2020/10/20/an-...-the-election/
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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Trump is a lot of things, he is not a fascist. It is quite insulting to those who were the victims of true fascists to pretend we are living under anything like a fascist government. What did I hear Douglas Murray say once: there is a supply and demand problem in America regarding fascists, there seems to be a great demand, but very little supply.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Trump is a lot of things, he is not a fascist. It is quite insulting to those who were the victims of true fascists to pretend we are living under anything like a fascist government. What did I hear Douglas Murray say once: there is a supply and demand problem in America regarding fascists, there seems to be a great demand, but very little supply.
    Trump is authoritarian at the core, stop pretending. Thereís a reason heís chummy with dictators and murderers, but canít get alone with democratically elected rulers.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Trump is a lot of things, he is not a fascist. It is quite insulting to those who were the victims of true fascists to pretend we are living under anything like a fascist government. What did I hear Douglas Murray say once: there is a supply and demand problem in America regarding fascists, there seems to be a great demand, but very little supply.
    None of us can know for an absolute certainty what is in tRump's heart.

    But we can notice his behavior. And his behavior fits quite neatly within the definism of fascism. How on earth could you say he doesn't? --


    exalts nation & race - CHECK

    prefers power concentrated centrally - in him as autocrat - CHECK

    wannabe dictator - CHECK

    prefers economic & social regimentation - CHECK

    increasing efforts at forcible suppression of opposition - CHECK



    Definition of fascism


    1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

    2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial controlearly instances of army fascism and brutalityó J. W. Aldridge


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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    Trump is authoritarian at the core, stop pretending. There’s a reason he’s chummy with dictators and murderers, but can’t get alone with democratically elected rulers.
    I agree he is an authoritarian. I said he is not a fascist. Can you not read?

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    You under estimate the fascist intent of trump, and the republican 'party', at your own risk. Everything he says/has done screams it. You don't want to be in the position of having to say 'well, gosh - I guess you were right'. Once ensconced, damn hard to evict.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I agree he is an authoritarian. I said he is not a fascist.
    Maybe you're right.... but a very thin line separates the two.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb
    Trump is a lot of things, he is not a fascist. It is quite insulting to those who were the victims of true fascists to pretend we are living under anything like a fascist government. What did I hear Douglas Murray say once: there is a supply and demand problem in America regarding fascists, there seems to be a great demand, but very little supply.
    The U.S. government is not yet fascist.

    Trump himself, on the other hand.... How many non-fascists have advocated that their election opponent be arrested and jailed during the campaign?
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Heard his short game is on!

    59f758b525e08905f96da978_TrumpPutt_PickUp.jpg

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I agree he is an authoritarian. I said he is not a fascist. Can you not read?
    I find the argument that he’s not yet an actual fascist not particularly compelling. Yeah, let’s wait for him to lock up his opponents then complain

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    ^
    Trump is aspirational.
    "We have come to live in a society based on insults, on lies and on things that just aren't true. It creates an environment where deranged people feel empowered." -- Colin Powell, 10/30/18

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Trump is a lot of things, he is not a fascist. It is quite insulting to those who were the victims of true fascists to pretend we are living under anything like a fascist government. What did I hear Douglas Murray say once: there is a supply and demand problem in America regarding fascists, there seems to be a great demand, but very little supply.
    Not so sure I agree with your police work there.

    Wikipedia's article on Fascism defines Fascism in terms that couldn't better fit Trump if it was written about him:



    Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have long debated the exact nature of fascism. Each group described as fascist has at least some unique elements, and many definitions of fascism have been criticized as either too wide or narrow.

    According to many scholars, fascism Ė especially once in power Ė has historically attacked communism, conservatism, and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the far-right.

    One common definition of the term, frequently cited by reliable sources as a standard definition, is that of historian Stanley G. Payne. He focuses on three concepts:

    • the "fascist negations": anti-liberalism, anti-communism, and anti-conservatism;
    • "fascist goals": the creation of a nationalist dictatorship to regulate economic structure and to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture, and the expansion of the nation into an empire; and
    • "fascist style": a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth, and charismatic authoritarian leadership.


    Professor Jason Stanley, in his book How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them, observed that "The leader proposes that only he can solve it and all of his political opponents are enemies or traitors." Stanley says recent global events, including the pandemic and the protests, have substantiated his concern about how fascist rhetoric is showing up in politics and policies around the world.

    . . .

    Roger Griffin describes fascism as "a genus of political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultranationalism". Griffin describes the ideology as having three core components: "(i) the rebirth myth, (ii) populist ultra-nationalism, and (iii) the myth of decadence".

    . . .

    Robert Paxton says that:


    [Fascism is] a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.


    Roger Eatwell defines fascism as "an ideology that strives to forge social rebirth based on a holistic-national radical Third Way", while Walter Laqueur sees the core tenets of fascism as "self-evident: nationalism; Social Darwinism; racialism, the need for leadership, a new aristocracy, and obedience; and the negation of the ideals of the Enlightenment and the French Revolution."

    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. ó P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Maybe you're right.... but a very thin line separates the two.
    No it doesn't. Fascists, in power, have always silenced (usually violently) all opposition. Trump denigrates his opposition and mocks them in an utterly unacceptable way, but he does not violently silence them, nor has he even threatened to do so. Trump does not, nor has he threatened to, commit genocide, as the Nazis did. Trump has not attempted to control major industry on the scale of facsicts. Its not a thin line.

    Trump is an arrogant, narcissitic, power-hungry man with no real education or common sense. But he is not a fascist.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    No it doesn't. Fascists, in power, have always silenced (usually violently) all opposition. Trump denigrates his opposition and mocks them in an utterly unacceptable way, but he does not violently silence them, nor has he even threatened to do so.
    Trump bragged last week he had an ANTIFA suspect murdered by federal marshals.

    Im sick of Trump not supporters denying what he’s actually done.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    No it doesn't. Fascists, in power, have always silenced (usually violently) all opposition. Trump denigrates his opposition and mocks them in an utterly unacceptable way, but he does not violently silence them, nor has he even threatened to do so. Trump does not, nor has he threatened to, commit genocide, as the Nazis did. Trump has not attempted to control major industry on the scale of facsicts. Its not a thin line.

    Trump is an arrogant, narcissitic, power-hungry man with no real education or common sense. But he is not a fascist.
    The Wikipedia article posted in #12, I think, might argue with that.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    History would point out that it took the Nazis ~9 years to come up with a plan for genocide. I guess everything was cool until the Wannsee conference

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Trump is a lot of things, he is not a fascist. It is quite insulting to those who were the victims of true fascists to pretend we are living under anything like a fascist government. What did I hear Douglas Murray say once: there is a supply and demand problem in America regarding fascists, there seems to be a great demand, but very little supply.
    oh, you want victims?

    how do you feel about eight hundred thousand daca enrollees living for four years in fear of deportation. or is there no real harm there, do you think.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    It should be said that 36% of Daca Enrollees are over the age of 26. 22% are 31 to 36 years old. It does beg the question why they did not seek help and legal status/citizenship earlier. Many are well aware of their status and have done little to improve their immigration status. Most live near and have had access to free immigration help.

    Screen Shot 2020-10-20 at 11.31.27 AM.jpg
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 10-20-2020 at 01:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    It should be said that 36% of Daca Enrollees are over the age of 26. 22% are 31 to 36 years old. It does beg the question why they did not seek help and legal status/citizenship earlier. Many are well aware of their status and have done little to improve their immigration status. Most live near and have had access to free immigration help.

    Screen Shot 2020-10-20 at 11.31.27 AM.jpg
    with due respect, you know nothing. the reason daca was necessary was that there was no path forward for kids of undocumented parents. you are parroting the bigoted lies that have been kicking around the right wing ignorancia for years.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    with due respect, you know nothing. the reason daca was necessary was that there was no path forward for kids of undocumented parents. you are parroting the bigoted lies that have been kicking around the right wing ignorancia for years.
    I would like to agree with you Lee. Like you, part of my extended family is from the south of the border. Most of them DACA. half chose to get help and the other did not. They could not be bothered despite being given infomation and hand holding help in high school, after graduation and through non profits as adults. Here in the bay area it is free or nearly nominal. Heck even my sister-in-law who is married to a gringo for 25 years and works for the state can not make time to change her status. Her son on the other hand is 36, has a wife and 4 children. they were DACA and all are legal and are now new citizens.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 10-20-2020 at 02:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Trump is a lot of things, he is not a fascist. It is quite insulting to those who were the victims of true fascists to pretend we are living under anything like a fascist government. What did I hear Douglas Murray say once: there is a supply and demand problem in America regarding fascists, there seems to be a great demand, but very little supply.
    Where do Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, and the rest of them come in your view of these things?

    I am thinking of this quite well known observation:

    The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction [..] and the distinction between true and false [..] no longer exists.Ē

    Hannah Arendt
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Where do Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones, and the rest of them come in your view of these things?

    I am thinking of this quite well known observation:

    The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction [..] and the distinction between true and false [..] no longer exists.”

    Hannah Arendt
    Yes.
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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I agree he is an authoritarian. I said he is not a fascist. Can you not read?
    Why not?

    Hitler was a fascist before he killed millions in the death camps. He was a fascist before he invaded Czechoslovakia. Even before his thugs set the Reichstag fire and he assumed tyrannical power. Hitler was a fascist even when he was merely an elected leader in the late Weimar Republic, and was constrained by a Constitution.

    Mussolini was a fascist before he joined the Axis alliance. Before he invaded Abyssinia. Before he proclaimed himself the tyrannical Il Duce in 1925. Mussolini was a fascist even when he was merely a Deputy in the Italian parliament in 1921, but commanding squadrons of thugs whose grievances and post-Versailles military butt-hurt made them able to be conned into imagining themselves the precursors of a glorious new Roman Empire.

    Trump is akin to a pre-Reichstag Hitler, to Mussolini in 1921, not 1925. He's been "legitimately" elected to office in a Constitutional state, but he's actively undermining the Constitutional provisions and restrictions. He's doing the same stuff to encourage stochastic terrorists, and to develop (as we saw in June under Barr) an alternative armed national force to deploy against civilians.

    The whole point, peb, is to recognize the fascists before they have their Reichstag moment, before they take to a balcony as Mussolini did on January 3, 1925, and declare themselves the Supreme Leader (Fuhrer, Duce). To do that, we have to call them what they are. Recognize the danger for what it is.

    Trump has utterly demolished the Republican party - to where in a post-Trump era, something entirely new will need to take its place. He wants to do the same to the Constitutional Republic, and simply hasn't managed it yet.

    Your job is to ensure that he doesn't.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Facism, thuggism, whateverism ... as the late author Geoffrey Household put it, it doesn't matter at the end of things whether the flag flying over your concentration camp is red or white...

    edited to add--I think TomF has it.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Trump is a lot of things, he is not a fascist. It is quite insulting to those who were the victims of true fascists to pretend we are living under anything like a fascist government.
    Horse pucky. They are the ones who say, "Never again, not even close, squash them like the evil vermin they are, quickly and decisively."
    Had every Athenian citizen been a Socrates, every Athenian assembly would still have been a mob.

    -- James Madison, Federalist 55

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Why not?

    Hitler was a fascist before he killed millions in the death camps. He was a fascist before he invaded Czechoslovakia. Even before his thugs set the Reichstag fire and he assumed tyrannical power. Hitler was a fascist even when he was merely an elected leader in the late Weimar Republic, and was constrained by a Constitution.

    Mussolini was a fascist before he joined the Axis alliance. Before he invaded Abyssinia. Before he proclaimed himself the tyrannical Il Duce in 1925. Mussolini was a fascist even when he was merely a Deputy in the Italian parliament in 1921, but commanding squadrons of thugs whose grievances and post-Versailles military butt-hurt made them able to be conned into imagining themselves the precursors of a glorious new Roman Empire.

    Trump is akin to a pre-Reichstag Hitler, to Mussolini in 1921, not 1925. He's been "legitimately" elected to office in a Constitutional state, but he's actively undermining the Constitutional provisions and restrictions. He's doing the same stuff to encourage stochastic terrorists, and to develop (as we saw in June under Barr) an alternative armed national force to deploy against civilians.

    The whole point, peb, is to recognize the fascists before they have their Reichstag moment, before they take to a balcony as Mussolini did on January 3, 1925, and declare themselves the Supreme Leader (Fuhrer, Duce). To do that, we have to call them what they are. Recognize the danger for what it is.

    Trump has utterly demolished the Republican party - to where in a post-Trump era, something entirely new will need to take its place. He wants to do the same to the Constitutional Republic, and simply hasn't managed it yet.

    Your job is to ensure that he doesn't.
    Just looked up at Amazon for Trump's book eqivikent to Mein Knapf, couldn't find it. Perhaps it's my poor research ability,. Got a link?

    Strange, I thought the Reichstag fire was in 1933, nit 1937.

    All hyperbole, of the worst sort. I can't stand the man, but he is not Hitler or even Mussolini.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    Facism, thuggism, whateverism ... as the late author Geoffrey Household put it, it doesn't matter at the end of things whether the flag flying over your concentration camp is red or white...

    edited to add--I think TomF has it.

    Jeff C
    Except that we are not threatened with any danger of concentration camps. Trump us a corrupt man, who puts his own interest above the people he governs, he is a man who does not understand the concept if service, he is a man who should have been impeached and convicted of abuse if power, he is a one who lacks all qualities of being a gentleman, etc.

    But he is not a fascist. I would be more justified in saying Bernie Sanders is a communist, than you guys are in saying Trump is a fascist. But I, by no means, accuse Bernie of being a communist.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Trump doesn't much read, but allegedly the sole book that anyone's mentioned seeing in his possession, other than his own ghost-written "Art of the Deal," was a collection of Hitler's speeches.

    I dunno if Mussolini wrote out an opus, but it was he, after all, who coined the term "fascism" in the first place. I've always thought that Mussolini was a better analogue than Hitler too. Huge ego, huge histrionic speaking style, with no consistent actual political perspective to the content other than loyalty to him, and grandiose imaginings about a resurgent Italy redressing all the grievances and ignominy it had suffered. And very little actual competence, beyond that rhetoric and ego. Ran a horrible military excursion into Ethiopia.

    An Italian prof of mine in university said that Mussolini's signature lasting achievement (not "making the trains run on time", btw) was unifying a single Italian language, by presiding over the creation of Italian state radio broadcasting. Modern Italian is apparently mostly the Florentine dialect ... there were many dialects before, but no single Italian. That's Mussolini's real legacy - and it's one driven by his personal gift for oratory.

    I agree btw about the timing of the Reichstag fire - didn't mean to say otherwise. What I did say is that the fascism was "baked in" for Hitler and for Mussolini before it was "realized" in their respective transitions from holding Constitutional offices .. to holding Dictatorial power. I think the same is true of Trump, even if this election and whatever follows it in America ends up denying him the "transition" to dictatorship which Hitler and Mussolini each took.
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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Just looked up at Amazon for Trump's book eqivikent to Mein Knapf, couldn't find it. Perhaps it's my poor research ability,. Got a link?

    Strange, I thought the Reichstag fire was in 1933, nit 1937. is

    All hyperbole, of the worst sort. I can't stand the man, but he is not Hitler or even Mussolini.
    You're kidding of course. Trump is incapable of writing a book on his own. If he could, he would have already but he needs ghost writers. I think your inability to make this connection between Trump and fascism in practice is surprising. Moreover, the existence of Mein Kampf is entirely irrelevant as respects Trump's intentions but I am imagining that was intended as hyperbole.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Again peb, the Death Camps were end-state Third Reich. Hitler was a fascist while holding elected office under the Weimar Republic's Constitution.

    He didn't become fascist after he became a dictator; he became a dictator because he was a fascist. Mussolini similarly.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Except that we are not threatened with any danger of concentration camps.
    We put migrants in camps, peb, and rip children from their mothers.

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    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Again peb, the Death Camps were end-state Third Reich. Hitler was a fascist while holding elected office under the Weimar Republic's Constitution.

    He didn't become fascist after he became a dictator; he became a dictator because he was a fascist. Mussolini similarly.
    Which lasted for how long before he assumed dictatorial powers? The Reichstag fire was in 33, not 37. And before he was appointed chancellor under the constitution, he told everyone exactly what he wanted to do.

    Trump expressed nothing on the sort of Mein Kampf before becoming oresident. He has been oresidrntv4 years, and the condition still stands. It us under no threat at all.


    Again, hyperbole if the worst sort. I don't agree with many if the apologetics the Trumpistas put forth for the man, but they are onto something when they refer to Trump Derangement Syndrome.

    The man will (hopefully) be defeated in 2 weeks, and you guys will be able to get on with your lives. I will feel better for you then. Mental health is important and shouldn't be pushed to such limits.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    12,826

    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    We put migrants in camps, peb, and rip children from their mothers.
    Yes we have, to our great shame. But not concentration camps. Thee is a difference, and you know it.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    16,750

    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Just looked up at Amazon for Trump's book eqivikent to Mein Knapf, couldn't find it. Perhaps it's my poor research ability,. Got a link?

    . . .
    Little Donnie Wannabe's bedside reading, as verified by his then wife.


  35. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Farmington, Oregon
    Posts
    14,458

    Default Re: Don't assume tRump loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    I would like to agree with you Lee. Like you, part of my extended family is from the south of the border. Most of them DACA. half chose to get help and the other did not. They could not be bothered despite being given infomation and hand holding help in high school, after graduation and through non profits as adults. Here in the bay area it is free or nearly nominal. Heck even my sister-in-law who is married to a gringo for 25 years and works for the state can not make time to change her status. Her son on the other hand is 36, has a wife and 4 children. they were DACA and all are legal and are now new citizens.
    ok, yer right, the problem is, those people are lazy.

    not going to argue further with you about what is or isnít possible for the innocent children of undocumented parents in this country. iíll only say that making young people just starting out in life beg to belong is the behavior of a decrepit, corrupted, selfish, worthless people. this country and the white nationalist apologists can stick it where the sun donít shine.

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