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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #17466
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    As far as 'religious freedoms being under threat' is concerned I rather think the horse has bolted concerning a legal marriage. I am sympathetic to the churches positions, and any provision that purports to force any religious body to go against their beliefs should not be contemplated. I can see however someone just being obtuse arguing that seeing the licence is a civil one they could be forced to marry an applicant by a court decision. I imagine the act could be written to cover this, but I don't know the constitutional position but in any case simply reversing Howards' changes should cover the matter. Of course if an argument is made that the civil licence, being a commonwealth matter, are the licence holders de facto public servants in this matter? I don't think so as they are not paid employees of the commonwealth.

    Fun eh? Lawyers should do well I'd say.

    Jeff, did you read the references on this that I posted earlier? Howard didn’t actually change the marriage act as I read it, he introduced the definition of marriage because in the act it had essentially become undefined due to other international factors......... but I’m open to be corrected:

    the Australian marriage act was written to set out the requirements for legal marriage in Australia but deliberately excluded the definition of marriage, despite one being proposed, because at the time that it was written that was covered under common law and therefore specifically defined marriage as between a man and a woman; however

    when Canada introduced same sex marriage common law in that regard became redundant (for want of the correct word or term) and therefore the act no longer contained a relevant reference to the definition of marriage and so it had to be specifically included in the act.

    So throughout the history of the marriage act, except for the period that it could be potentially contested when the common law element became redundant, same sex marriage has always been illegal in Australia.

    So simply reversing Howards "changes" would be unlikely to solve the matter.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  2. #17467
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Noted Greg, thanks.

    Speaking of 'marriage', how's the boat coming along…..

  3. #17468
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Noted Greg, thanks.

    Speaking of 'marriage', how's the boat coming along…..
    It’s coming along in fits and starts at the moment - a few interruptions with the possibility of a contract hanging in the wings and so trying to get things done on the house that I’d otherwise be doing later on weekends.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  4. #17469
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I note that the PM made a speech in Adelaide the other night. The subject? Bill Shorten, "the most dangerous left wing labour leader in generations". Long on hyperbole, shot on fact. Labour haven't had a eft wing leader in 40 years.

  5. #17470
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I note that the PM made a speech in Adelaide the other night. The subject? Bill Shorten, "the most dangerous left wing labour leader in generations". Long on hyperbole, shot on fact. Labour haven't had a eft wing leader in 40 years.
    Shot on fact, indeed. Shot right on target.

    Perhaps you could comment on what he had to say about SA Labor's power experiment?

    I see that the decision to close Port Augusta prematurely is going to cost $100 million this next year alone.... and they'll be burning 80,000 litres of diesel an hour in the process, when the multiple gensets are running.

    SA.... the state that limps along on mobile generators.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  6. #17471
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Agreed, the energy market in Aus is a mess. No innocent parties there.

  7. #17472
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Ask the Libs for a policy and you get, Shorten, Shorten, Shorten, Shorten, Shorten, Shorten.

    I guess they're worried .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  8. #17473
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Shorten is wet rag and Turnbull is no better. Abbott is that nasty thing in the woodshed.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

  9. #17474
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Not in my book, the churches need dragging into the 21 st century. Women should be allowed to be ordained and priests should be allowed to marry...that in itself might just cut down on the sexual abuse.
    As for proportions, the hetero population out numbers the alphabets but that doesn't mean the heteros should make the decision. Besides we challenge the churches position on abortion, birth control and divorce, so why not ssm as well?
    Not wanting to rake over old ground and certainly not wanting to have a shot at you Gary, but something perhaps for everyone to think about as I’ve been mulling over this a bit because it did bother me and I’ve been wondering why.

    It’s not because you said it Gary but because it is, I think, a reasonably widely held view of non religious people (not that I’m particularly relies myself).

    It bothered me aside from actually being wrong in its concept: by which I mean the Catholic church at least (I can’t speak for other churches but I believe the Anglican church is much the same, if not better at it), for all its faults, has always actively addressed the many issues involved in trying to maintain currency with social development in order to maintain its following and congregation whilst trying to also maintain its intrinsic values and beliefs.

    It may not be/is not perfect and it may appear to lag behind what we may think more suitable in Australia, but the Catholic Church is not just dealing with Australia, it is dealing with the social structures of countries all around the world, from Rome/Italy to the Philippines, Mexico to the Solomon Islands, the USA and South America to Spain and so on.

    I think that what bothers me about the sentiment is that if anyone made that comment but changed the subject to another group or demographic in Australia:

    ... indigenous Australians need dragging into the 21 st century.

    ... homosexuals need dragging into the 21 st century.

    ... Green activists need dragging into the 21 st century.

    ... whales need dragging into the 21 st century.


    I’m not for a moment suggesting that any of these groups do need dragging into the 21’st century, but for an outsider of any particular group to assume that they are better, know better, are more correct, better informed, more advanced or more developed than that group would be labeled as bigotry and hate in any other circumstance.

    It also perhaps highlights an example of the sort of religious freedom that the Author of that article from The Australian was talking about - i.e. protecting individuals, organisations, religious groups from ridicule, bigotry, hateful comments and so on because of their beliefs.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  10. #17475
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Regardless of my own beliefs I do think that as an organisation churches, of any stamp, should be a good thing for the community regardless of whether god gets a guernsey or not. Should be. They are made up of people and there's problem straight away there. Politics, power, money, insecurity, fanatacism can and does get in the way.
    Of course governments trade of their goodwill all the time, merrily passing the buck at every opportunity and by extension so does the whole community regardless of belief. If the churches' volunteers, and volunteers in general, stayed home for a few days all hell would break loose. A church congregation can be a very supportive group, but it can also go the other way. The Bretheren come to mind.
    People are like that, a mixed bunch.

  11. #17476
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    .... for an outsider of any particular group to assume that they are better, know better, are more correct, better informed, more advanced or more developed than that group would be labeled as bigotry and hate in any other circumstance.....
    Hang on.... isn't this intruding on my domain?

    I haven't had a good, if inappropriate, label thrown my way for ages.... Where's Meli when she's needed?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  12. #17477
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Hang on.... isn't this intruding on my domain?

    I haven't had a good, if inappropriate, label thrown my way for ages.... Where's Meli when she's needed?
    We could hold a competition………………..

  13. #17478
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Not wanting to rake over old ground and certainly not wanting to have a shot at you Gary, but something perhaps for everyone to think about as I’ve been mulling over this a bit because it did bother me and I’ve been wondering why.

    It’s not because you said it Gary but because it is, I think, a reasonably widely held view of non religious people (not that I’m particularly relies myself).

    It bothered me aside from actually being wrong in its concept: by which I mean the Catholic church at least (I can’t speak for other churches but I believe the Anglican church is much the same, if not better at it), for all its faults, has always actively addressed the many issues involved in trying to maintain currency with social development in order to maintain its following and congregation whilst trying to also maintain its intrinsic values and beliefs.

    It may not be/is not perfect and it may appear to lag behind what we may think more suitable in Australia, but the Catholic Church is not just dealing with Australia, it is dealing with the social structures of countries all around the world, from Rome/Italy to the Philippines, Mexico to the Solomon Islands, the USA and South America to Spain and so on.

    I think that what bothers me about the sentiment is that if anyone made that comment but changed the subject to another group or demographic in Australia:

    ... indigenous Australians need dragging into the 21 st century.

    ... homosexuals need dragging into the 21 st century.

    ... Green activists need dragging into the 21 st century.

    ... whales need dragging into the 21 st century.


    I’m not for a moment suggesting that any of these groups do need dragging into the 21’st century, but for an outsider of any particular group to assume that they are better, know better, are more correct, better informed, more advanced or more developed than that group would be labeled as bigotry and hate in any other circumstance.

    It also perhaps highlights an example of the sort of religious freedom that the Author of that article from The Australian was talking about - i.e. protecting individuals, organisations, religious groups from ridicule, bigotry, hateful comments and so on because of their beliefs.
    Greg I voiced an opinion based on my knowledge of the history of the Christian religion that is all. When you talk about religious freedom what do you mean? My interpretation of that would be the right to worship the god of your choice. In much the same way as I have the right to not believe in a god, a belief I might point out that would get me killed in some religious cultures. If you want the churches to have the right to refuse to marry same sex couples, what other rights are you willing to extend to religious denominations? Think about it, some Muslim sects want to heavily restrict the rights of women. Should that be their right to do so?
    what should come first, human rights or church rights? Shouldn't it be a basic right of all people to marry the person that they love?
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

  14. #17479
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Greg I voiced an opinion based on my knowledge of the history of the Christian religion that is all. When you talk about religious freedom what do you mean? My interpretation of that would be the right to worship the god of your choice. In much the same way as I have the right to not believe in a god, a belief I might point out that would get me killed in some religious cultures. If you want the churches to have the right to refuse to marry same sex couples, what other rights are you willing to extend to religious denominations? Think about it, some Muslim sects want to heavily restrict the rights of women. Should that be their right to do so?
    what should come first, human rights or church rights? Shouldn't it be a basic right of all people to marry the person that they love?
    If only.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  15. #17480
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    If only.
    Assuming of course that the love is reciprocal.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

  16. #17481
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    We hope so.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  17. #17482
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I note the secrecy restrictions re the Manus and Naru detention centres have been lifted unless the information is involved with Australian security. A good mark for Dutton.

    And Mal is getting a deal of criticism over his "joined at the hip" remark re ANZUS. A few liberals 'interpreting' the remark as meaning an obligation only to 'consult'.
    But Howard had his 'all the way' moment over 9/11, and Malcolm could surely use a nice little war to repair his credibility, as could Donald for that matter. I doubt any PM will wish to give that power up.

  18. #17483
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    If we go to war with NK I doubt it will be a nice little war . Incidentally, it's probably not one we've trained for .... mountainous and deadly cold.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  19. #17484
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    If we go to war with NK I doubt it will be a nice little war . Incidentally, it's probably not one we've trained for .... mountainous and deadly cold.
    Once again, you miss the mark.

    My winter jacket saw war service in Afghanistan. It's pretty damn good gear.

    Oh yeah.... Afghanistan.... mountainous and deadly cold.

    Then again.... any war with NK will be firepower, not manpower.... oh, and a bit of electronic warfare thrown in for good measure. Where do you think our subs go to practice, btw?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  20. #17485
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Read up on the last Korean War Ian, quite different to Afghanistan.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  21. #17486
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    You could ask my eldest step-brother, CSM through the whole affair.

    But I doubt even Donald will be stupid enough to actually put troops over the border. But then again it depends on what political advantage he sees in it. Will he trot out GW's line about being 'welcomed with cheers and flowers' again?

  22. #17487
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    We have no idea how things would progress if it started , none.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  23. #17488
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    We have no idea how things would progress if it started , none.
    Wrong again.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  24. #17489
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Of course Ian, of course .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  25. #17490
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Narev to go……………by mid 2018……………..

    Hard to say really eh?

  26. #17491
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    This is bound to set a cat among the pigeons!!

    Deputy Prime Minister Barnaby Joyce says he will ask the High Court to rule on his citizenship. He says he has received advice he may be a New Zealand citizen.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...ust-14/8802990
    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question

  27. #17492
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    It appears it's not just Greens who are careless .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  28. #17493
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    It appears it's not just Greens who are careless .
    I’m not sure how this one could be considered careless when you read his actual circumstances - it sounds more like someone is trying very hard to create mischief:

    "Last Thursday afternoon the New Zealand High Commission contacted me to advise that on the basis of preliminary advice from the Department of Internal Affairs, which received inquiries from the New Zealand Labour Party, they considered that I may be a citizen by descent of New Zealand," he told the House of Representatives

    "Needless to say, I was shocked to receive this information.

    "I have always been an Australian citizen - born in Tamworth - just as my mother and great grandmother were born there 100 years earlier.

    "Neither I nor my parents have ever had any reason to believe that I may be a citizen of any other country.

    "I was born in Australia in 1967 to an Australian mother - I think I am 5th generation.

    "My father was born in New Zealand and came to Australia in 1947 as a British subject - in fact we were all British subjects at that time.

    "The concept of New Zealand and Australian citizenship was not created until 1948.

    "Neither my parents nor I have ever applied to register me as a New Zealand citizen. The New Zealand Government has no register recognising me as an New Zealand citizen.

    "The Government has taken legal advice from the Solicitor-General - on the basis of the Solicitor-General's advice, the Government is of the firm view that I would not be found to be disqualified by the operation of s44(1) of the Constitution from serving as the Member for New England.

    "However to provide clarification to this very important area of the law for this and future Parliaments I have asked the Government to refer the matter in accordance with s376 of the Commonwealth Electoral Act to the High Court sitting as the Court of Disputed Returns.

    "Given the strength of the legal advice the Government has received, the Prime Minister has asked that I remain Deputy Prime Minister and continue my Ministerial duties."
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  29. #17494
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    In that case he has nothing to worry about.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  30. #17495
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I don't think so either, but it's a silly bl00dy thing anyhow and just more distractions.

    Hey, how about just declaring all Kiwi's as Australians whether they like it or not?
    Actually given their system of government is much better, how about that going the other way?
    Rename the place as The West Island………….

  31. #17496
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Like.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  32. #17497
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Now here's a 'cat amongst the pigeons' recommendation from the Abuse royal commission.

    Abuse royal commission recommends changes to confession rules


    The Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse has recommended the criminal law be changed so clergy members are required to report information about child sexual abuse even if it is received during confession.
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-1...ations/8804040

  33. #17498
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I have a confession - I could be an Irish citizen�� I'm not, but I could be if I wanted to
    Larks

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    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  34. #17499
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I could probably get NZ citizenship if I asked.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I could be a Brit. But maybe not…………………...

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