Oz Politics.

[skuthorp]

……..because the reality of white attitudes to it is uncomfortable to say the least…..

Some good stuff in the Saturday Paper tis week…… worth the price.

[Lugs]

Here's a bit of a treatise on the issue of terra nullius... a term which had no meaning when Australian colonisation began.

The British penal colony of New South Wales, which included more than half of mainland Australia, was proclaimed by Governor Captain Arthur Phillip at Sydney in February 1788. At the time of British colonisation, Aboriginal Australians had occupied Australia for at least 50,000 years. They were complex hunter-gatherers with diverse economies and societies and about 250 different language groups. The Aboriginal population of the Sydney area was an estimated 4,000 to 8,000 people who were organised in clans which occupied land with traditional boundaries.

There is debate over whether Australia was colonised by the British from 1788 on the basis that the land was terra nullius. Frost, Attwood and others argue that even though the term terra nullius was not used in the eighteenth century, there was widespread acceptance of the concept that a state could acquire territory through occupation of land that was not already under sovereignty and was uninhabited or inhabited by peoples who had not developed permanent settlements, agriculture, property rights or political organisation recognised by European states. Borch, however, states that, "it seems much more likely that there was no legal doctrine maintaining that inhabited land could be regarded as ownerless, nor was this the basis of official policy, in the eighteenth century or before. Rather it seems to have developed as a legal theory in the nineteenth century.”

In Mabo v Queensland (No 2) (1992), Justice Dawson stated, "Upon any account, the policy which was implemented and the laws which were passed in New South Wales make it plain that, from the inception of the colony, the Crown treated all land in the colony as unoccupied and afforded no recognition to any form of native interest in the land."

Stuart Banner states that the first known Australian legal use of the concept (although not the term) terra nullius was in 1819 in a tax dispute between Barron Field and the Governor of New South Wales Lachlan Macquarie. The matter was referred to British Attorney General Samuel Shepherd and Solicitor General Robert Gifford who advised that New South Wales had not been acquired by conquest or cession, but by possession as "desert and uninhabited".

In 1835, a Proclamation by Governor Bourke stated that British subjects could not obtain title over vacant Crown land directly from Aboriginal Australians.

In R v Murrel (1836) Justice Burton of the Supreme Court of New South Wales stated, “although it might be granted that on the first taking possession of the Colony, the aborigines were entitled to be recognised as free and independent, yet they were not in such a position with regard to strength as to be considered free and independent tribes. They had no sovereignty.”

In the Privy Council case Cooper v Stuart (1889), Lord Watson stated that New South Wales was, "a tract of territory practically unoccupied, without settled inhabitants or settled law, at the time when it was peacefully annexed to the British dominions."

In the Mabo Case (1992), the High Court of Australia considered the question of whether Australia had been colonised by Britain on the basis that it was terra nullius. The court did not consider the legality of the initial colonisation as this was a matter of international law and, "The acquisition of territory by a sovereign state for the first time is an act of state which cannot be challenged, controlled or interfered with by the courts of that state." The questions for decision included the implications of the initial colonisation for the transmission of the common law to New South Wales and whether the common law recognised that the Indigenous inhabitants had any form of native title to land. Dismissing a number of previous authorities, the court rejected the "enlarged notion of terra nullius", by which lands inhabited by Indigenous peoples could be considered desert and uninhabited for the purposes of Australian municipal law. The court found that the common law of Australia recognised a form of native title held by the Indigenous peoples of Australia and that this title persisted unless extinguished by a valid exercise of sovereign power inconsistent with the continued right to enjoy native title.^[

[Hallam]

Lugs, thanks for taking time to look into it and reply. It is a bit of a stretch to claim the term had no meaning at the time Australia was colonised. I’m wondering what the source of the treatise you posted. As far as I can tell from reading and previously looking into it the term first came into usage with respect to international law, as a Papal decree with The Doctrine of Discovery in 1493 with Christopher Columbus journeys of discovery.

https://www.gilderlehrman.org/histor...discovery-1493

A museum of Australia web page clearly states:
https://australian.museum/learn/firs...terra-nullius/

“ The Proclamation of NSW Governor Richard Bourke in 1835 implemented the legal principle of terra nullius in Australian law as the basis for British settlement. This was 47 years after the arrival of the First Fleet. Terra nulliuswas overturned in the High Court of Australia’s Mabo decision in 1992, which recognised Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples’ continuing connection and rights to land through Native Title.“

[skuthorp]

I should have known a Pope had his muddy fingers in the pie.


And don't forget to watch 4 Corners on Opus Dei in some Sydney schools tonight.

[Hallam]

^ …..yes, you should have known! One of the many examples where official church actions are at odds with an obvious reading of the original message the church maintains it is built on.

Way past time we left the retrograde aspects of the Middle Ages behind. The doctrine of discovery is high profile in indigenous communities of all colonised nations, especially Canada it seems. Pope Francis has been pressured to rescind but those in the legal know opinion that even if this was done, secular institutions would also need to respond for it to have any real impact. This article seems well informed:
https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/art...-of-discovery/

Thanks for the heads up on 4 corners. In recent years they have opened up a residential college for Catholic students attending Melbourne Uni and have a school or strong presence in some schools around the Dandenong growth corridors. There is also a parish south of Hobart where they effectively took over the parish and more or less outed those who were not religious fanatics. Looking closely are their mode of operation I found it is open to the psychological dynamic of cult entrapment.

[Hallam]

Regarding NSW Governor’s proclamation it’s interesting that it was as a response to John Batman making a treaty with local indigenous for the establishment of Melbourne. Bourk’s proclamation rendered Batman’s treaty null and void.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proc...overnor_Bourke

“The proclamation was prompted by the actions of John Batman, who when establishing a settlement at what is now Melbourne and would become the colony of Victoria, agreed to a treaty with the local Aboriginal inhabitants. Bourke's proclamation effectively declared Batman's treaty null and void, and implemented the concept of terra nullius—that the colonies belonged to no-one prior to settlement by the British Crown.^{[1] “}

[gypsie]

A museum of Australia web page clearly states:
https://australian.museum/learn/firs...terra-nullius/

Ahem - Museum of Australia, and the Australian Museum, are two different places

That link is from Unsettled - I was the producer on it.
I don't get many opportunities to brag.

[Hallam]

Thanks for the correction. My bad! Would be good to hear more of your work then.

[skuthorp]

Misfeasance in Office.
Interesting developments in the Robodebt enquiry. Public servants as well as MP's past and present, including Robert and probably Morrison, though he'll likely plead ignorance. Bags of compensation, but I wonder if the taxpayer will a pick up the tab? I would have thought not in this case.
I want to see someone held responsible for the robodebt prompted suicides.

And the there's Veronica Nelson……….. The Coroner's summation was severe.

[skuthorp]

It's about time that the catholic church was declared a prohibited organisation. If it's good enough for Hamas, it's good enough for Opus Dei. It also seems to me that their practices are tatamount to sexual grooming and physical abuse.
I'd hope the schools would be shut down tomorrow.
I wonder how Perrotet will go come the election now?

[skuthorp]

Thorpe.
A spoiler with demagogic tendencies pushing her own barrow I reckon. It's all about her.
The perfect being the enemy of the good. She'll torpedo the whole process for her own advantage.
My grandma used a term for someone with a self satisfied smirk on their faces, 'looking like the cat that got the cream'. Perfect description.

I wonder why anyone believes anything Sports Rorts says?

[Hallam]

Well that 4 corners story wound you up however I think your first sentence is an over reaction that is an open door for indiscriminate religious persecution. A distinction needs to be made between Opus Dei asnd the wider Catholic Church. While saying that, I generally agree with your following statements about Opus Dei. They are a dangerous and fanatical expression of one mans reactionary version of a Catholic movement that was germinated from the murderous persecution Spanish Catholics were subject to during the Spanish civil war.

Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War - Wikipedia
During the Spanish Civil War of 1936–1939, and especially in the early months of the conflict, individual clergymen were executed while entire religious communities were persecuted, leading to a death toll of 13 bishops, 4,172 diocesan priests and seminarians, 2,364 monks and friars and 283 nuns, for a total of 6,832 clerical victims, as part of what is referred to as Spain's Red Terror

When $h!t like that goes down it warps people and what started as a seemingly ok motivation of Opus Dei's founder, and survivor of the Spanish persecution warped into something that had a pathological element that should be obvious. Often the success of a movement like Opus Dei's beginning years in siding with Franco's dictatorship gives reason to overlook the problematic nature of the movement.

There is existing quietly within the wider catholic church many movements and groups of people who are down to earth and act in a manner that does not broadcast the good work they do all the while not proselytising nor thinking every one else is going to hell etc etc. No good shutting them down because of loud mouthed outliers!

Also what interests me of late is the reality that the Govt of Australia under Howard but a 90 year silence clause on the information pertaining to pedophile activity in the upper echelons of Australian ruling class; names including high court judges 2 ex Prime Ministers high ranking police officers etc etc that Senator Heffernan tabled that included police reports etc and many hold that the list was never given adequate follow through.
As the issue stands of November 2020:


e-petitions – Parliament of Australia

Petition ReasonOn 20th October 2015, Senator Heffernan brought to Parliament and Australias attention, official documents presented during the Wood Royal Commission and again during Royal Commission into Ritual and Sexual Abuse within Institutions. These documents include police documents, naming 28 high profile paedophiles, including one former Prime Minister. Investigation into these documents were stopped. The government and Judiciary have been noted suppressing these documents with orders for 90 years, choosing not to investigate as the public would ‘lose faith in the judiciary’. The public have already lost faith in the Government and Judiciary. This is compounded by these suppression orders. We the Australians with integrity and honour stand against these suppression orders and wish to protect our children. We insist these people and institutions be fully investigated, and held to account, including those whom have chosen to cover and suppress any investigations.

Petition RequestWe therefore ask the House to 1: Lift the 90 year Suppression Orders on these documents. 2: Create and support permanently, Independent Corruption and Integrity Commission to investigate ANY and ALL corruption exposed within Government, Judiciary and other formal Institutions. 3: Investigate these particular documents suppressed, and bring those guilty to account. 4: Bring justice to the victims and survivors, by exposing those people and systems in place that are corrupt and currently hidden. 5: Clean the institutions of all corruption, to start bringing the public’s faith back, showing that our government and judiciary will be honest and work for the people of Australia, while protecting our children’s future.

And the ministers response:

EN1856 - Ministerial response - Attorney General .pdf

My point?..... there are sick bastards in every institution.

[skuthorp]

Cash?
What was the point in petitioning a piece of work like that in a government like that? The petitioners wasted their energies and they must have known the result. Especially with Morrison being part of a cult that was part of the problem. Way too close to the bone.

And yes there are sick bastards in every generation as well, and it's about time humans recognised their own failings. But it's mostly about power, even sexual predation is about power.

I have no truck with anyones fables which at base are also about a power structure, but then as I observe every day, humans are like that.

[WX]

Kerry would love to see the Catholic Church disbanded.

[Hallam]

Kerry would love to see the Catholic Church disbanded.

………with respect to its current medieval trappings etc and it’s status as an independent nation state of the Vatican, I agree.

[Lugs]

Watching SBS and ABC yesterday, nothing but acknowledgement of elders past and present and then there were repeat warnings all day about images of dead people. It's brain dead stuff and the more they do it, the less votes the Voice will get.

I agree with Skuthorpe about his namesake, she's terrible. Her raving on about a treaty is all about money. Pay us...

I have to say, I like some of Stan Grant's writing... but every time I see that damn spray tan on TV, I reckon I've got the comedy channel on. As a mate who was watching it with me yesterday said... "reverse Michael Jackson".

The Opus Dei thing was so obviously just a hatchet job aimed at the Premier. Very droll.

You mention pedo's. There's a well known former Premier who protected a senior public servant. Its widely known.

As for the Veronica Nelson inquest.. call me a cynic if you must, but why hadn't the bleating mother and the bleating partner done anything for her? Shoplifting and not going to get gaol? There's the wrong in that system. A 33kg thieving heroin addict and the relatives and partner want to blame others? Look in the mirror ... and take some self responsibility.

[Lugs]

Let's do some research.

3.3 % of the population identify as indigenous.

798,368 people.

So... what voice do they use?

In the 2016 Census of Population and Housing, 1 in 10 (9.8%) Indigenous Australians reported that they spoke an Indigenous language at home, with over 150 different Indigenous languages being spoken (ABS 2019a). The most common Indigenous language spoken at home was Kriol (11%), followed by Yumplatok (Torres Strait Creole) (9.4%) and Djambarrpuyngu (6.7%) (ABS 2019a).

So, only 80,000 speak an indigenous language at home.

What happened to the other 350 languages that used to exist? They're gone... like the dodo? The most common of these voices are spoken by only 8000 people... and it goes down to nothing pretty quickly.

So the woke mob want to change the Constitution, to one based on race, for a few dying languages? Madness.

[Lugs]

We've done this giving representation thing "many" times before.... but it has never worked. So, let's lock it in, make it ridiculously hard to fix the next time it doesn't work. That'll do it. Won't it? Thankfully, we were able to get rid of ATSIC, which had devolved into a gravy train.

Oh, by the way, ATSI people have a constitutionally enshrined consultative body. Its called the Parliament. There's 227 politicians in it (76 in the Senate, 151 in the Reps) of whom 11 identify as ATSI. Oops they are over-represented. They make up 5% of the Australian Parliament, representing 3% of the population. Where's the problem?

So, if the fundamental reason for wanting to do this Voice thing is already covered, what is the real reason for wanting to do it? It is almost guaranteed to create division - rather than bring the country together. We are one country now, egalitarian even but these clowns want to create a division in it based on race. Duh.

It has been said by plenty, the Voice can be enacted by Parliament tomorrow, without locking it into the Constitution. We don't need a referendum. Albo is starting to realise, he's in trouble on this one. His trip to the Alice will have opened his eyes. The woke will get woken up sometime soon. The issue isn't a Voice. The issue is a culture that has crumbled to where violence is endemic, kids are feral, and all the wokies want to do is play games with the Voice, rather than deal with the problems. People in the problem areas need to take responsibility. It is THEIR problem, not ours. They need to own it.

[Lugs]

(Bit of an echo chamber here.)

I've got indigenous friends, here and overseas (Aboriginal, Maori, Native American etc) and have been in many remote settlements. On top of that, a mate I catch up with regularly was a remote area cop in the NT and a couple more mates who were educators and public servants in remote areas for most of their lives, including one who married a (old term) full-blood tribal woman. Oh, the tales they have.... From a woman's point of view, let's just say the GEDSI issues are such that you'd sure want to be born male.

Here's a couple of things that need addressing. Welfare dependency. Child abuse - as my cop mate says, there's a massive amount of unreported crime in that area.

Now, on the issue of ethnic groups. This Voice will represent the tenth largest ethnic group in the country. Whataboutme?

[Lugs]

Come on gentlemen, I haven't even opened my second beer of the evening.

The Cambridge dictionary defines “indigenous” as a word that is “used to refer to, or relating to, the people who originally lived in a place, rather than people who moved there from somewhere else”. Does that mean that only African people are indigenous, after all, all humans are known to have originated in Africa and then “moved” into other regions?

DNA findings have been most unwelcome in the Australian Aboriginal Industry.

Paleogeneticists use DNA science to examine the origins of people.

For example, they have found that most Europeans and Asians inherited 1% to 2% of their genomes from Neanderthals.

Melanesians and Australian Aboriginals get another 3% to 6% of their DNA from Denisovans, that is, Neanderthal cousins who ranged across Asia 50,000 to 200,000 years ago or so and are generally regarded as archaic species[1].

How is the Voice going to deal with science conflicting with the Dreamtime? Where does this longest existing culture stop (just after the last Denisovan bonking, I suspect).

The Australian Aboriginal Industry apparently wants us to believe Dreamtime over Science.

Parliament is being asked to turn its back on both the Cambridge Dictionary and Science in favour of Fairytales from prehistoric and archaic human relatives.

---

[1]https://www.science.org/content/art...alized about 10 years,200,000 years ago or so.

[Lugs]

So, do you guys think? Or, is it expected of you to follow the wokism... as if you were a nice abiding member of, say the Catholic faith? This wokism seems to be no different to religion. You are told, you obey.

From Senator Jacinta Nampijinpa Price:

The most important book to read right now is the book I just wrote the foreword for.
Beyond Belief - Rethinking the Voice to Parliament

It factually and responsibly delivers the ‘No’ case through a series of considered essays of significant Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Australians.

The Voice to Parliament is the most racially divisive and dangerous policy to be dreamt up in some time. In a world that has known the horrific circumstances of racial policy in our global history’s we should know better.

It is illegal in Germany to create race based laws so as never to repeat the horrors of World War 2. So why then are we as a nation hurtling toward racially divisive policy and special measures for one race?

Do not mistake this process for something to feel warm and fuzzy about. We do not need to constitutionally enshrine an Aboriginal Organisation, there are enough of them already funded by governments to overcome Aboriginal disadvantage but clearly they’re not working so enshrining one in our constitution DOES NOT guarantee success!

SHARE SHARE SHARE!

Order your copy here: https://www.connorcourtpublishing.com.au/-Beyond-Belief...

[Lugs]

To summarise, because I do want to hear what you guys think. How can you possibly rationalise a piece of racist legislation? In my view, it's just another sinecure for lefty Labor mates... and they are trying to lock it in.

It's no different with the trade unions, which despite their use of public money, don't have anywhere near the level of oversight and transparency of public corporations.

Given that there was no Aboriginal Nation pre white settlement (and inter-breeding between settlers and the indigenous population); but a land mass with 700 or more tribes of varying levels of friendliness towards each other, there's no indigenous model that can be proposed for the Voice.

I will suggest one.

Create an appointed position to advise the Prime Minister of the day on indigenous issues - within the parliament, or outside, advising the PM. Clearly someone just did that for Albo... whispered in his ear and said "get yer arse up to the Alice, pronto". It worked. Legislate it, but don't expose the country to a racist piece of Constitutional change.

[WX]

To summarise, because I do want to hear what you guys think. How can you possibly rationalise a piece of racist legislation? In my view, it's just another sinecure for lefty Labor mates... and they are trying to lock it in.

It's no different with the trade unions, which despite their use of public money, don't have anywhere near the level of oversight and transparency of public corporations.

Given that there was no Aboriginal Nation pre white settlement (and inter-breeding between settlers and the indigenous population); but a land mass with 700 or more tribes of varying levels of friendliness towards each other, there's no indigenous model that can be proposed for the Voice.

I will suggest one.

Create an appointed position to advise the Prime Minister of the day on indigenous issues - within the parliament, or outside, advising the PM. Clearly someone just did that for Albo... whispered in his ear and said "get yer arse up to the Alice, pronto". It worked. Legislate it, but don't expose the country to a racist piece of Constitutional change.

I noticed that the meeting in Alice proposing to sue the NT government, was predominately white...in fact I didn't see a single black face.
There are over 800 different languages/clans/groups in the indigenous population. It would be like asking all of Europe to unite under one flag, language and culture.
What I am noticing is very few people are asking the aborigines for answers.

[Lugs]

I noticed that the meeting in Alice proposing to sue the NT government, was predominately white...in fact I didn't see a single black face.
There are over 800 different languages/clans/groups in the indigenous population. It would be like asking all of Europe to unite under one flag, language and culture.
What I am noticing is very few people are asking the aborigines for answers.

How many clans, languages, groups are there in the Australian population?

You know, the country that we are - not the tenth largest ethnic group in the country, which is what the indigenous clans are.

Yes, hundreds and if you want to drive deeper, many thousands - just look at the variety of tartan clobber the Scots here wear.

The sooner we stop talking about indigenous issues and start talking about Australian issues, the better. We are ONE country.

If I ever attend a public meeting and some yobbo starts with that rubbish about welcome to country, they will hear my voice "Welcome to AUSTRALIA, ya mug".

Oh yeah... and Albo is deflecting the Alice issue to everyone but him. Sorry mate, you got told - a VOICE told you what would happen and you didn't listen. Keep up this referendum rubbish and it is going to get ugly.

[WX]

How many clans, languages, groups are there in the Australian population?

You know, the country that we are - not the tenth largest ethnic group in the country, which is what the indigenous clans are.

Yes, hundreds and if you want to drive deeper, many thousands - just look at the variety of tartan clobber the Scots here wear.

The sooner we stop talking about indigenous issues and start talking about Australian issues, the better. We are ONE country.

If I ever attend a public meeting and some yobbo starts with that rubbish about welcome to country, they will hear my voice "Welcome to AUSTRALIA, ya mug".

Oh yeah... and Albo is deflecting the Alice issue to everyone but him. Sorry mate, you got told - a VOICE told you what would happen and you didn't listen. Keep up this referendum rubbish and it is going to get ugly.

So you are quite happy to ignore 60,000 plus years of prior occupation, plus over two hundred years of ethic cleansing, subjugation, just basic racism and just pretend nothing is wrong?

[Lugs]

So you are quite happy to ignore 60,000 plus years of prior occupation, plus over two hundred years of ethic cleansing, subjugation, just basic racism and just pretend nothing is wrong?

Where do you get that from? I haven't ignored anything of the kind.

I've posed a couple of questions. How does tens of thousands of years of prior living on this land have any bearing on where we are now? Indigenous tribes were fully entitled to defend their lands. They didn't. The same thing happened around the globe in those centuries.

You were born here. So was I and so were my ancestors. It has been suggested that I have indigenous forebears. The only way I will ever know that is to have DNA testing, which I have no interest in, as it doesn't matter one way or the other. Race is irrelevant to me. I work on behaviour. This issue though poses questions - how does the DNA science (as outlined in my prior posts) correlate with the songlines and dreamtime stories? How about a bit of peer reviewed analysis on that?

You say 60,000 years of prior occupation. How does that fit with dating of the languages to 6,000 years?

You say 200 years of ethnic cleansing. That was conducted white on black, black on white. I don't judge either, because that was then, this is now. I bear no responsibility on either side.

Subjugation? Where do you see that now? Where do you see self responsibility now, while you are seeking your answers?

You have not seen me pretend that nothing is wrong. Something is very wrong. The Intervention recognised that and the then government acted and the results were significant. The current Woke Government let it lapse, despite urgent calls to not do so. There is something very wrong now, isn't there?

[WX]

Where do you get that from? I haven't ignored anything of the kind.

I've posed a couple of questions. How does tens of thousands of years of prior living on this land have any bearing on where we are now? Indigenous tribes were fully entitled to defend their lands. They didn't. The same thing happened around the globe in those centuries.

You were born here. So was I and so were my ancestors. It has been suggested that I have indigenous forebears. The only way I will ever know that is to have DNA testing, which I have no interest in, as it doesn't matter one way or the other. Race is irrelevant to me. I work on behaviour. This issue though poses questions - how does the DNA science (as outlined in my prior posts) correlate with the songlines and dreamtime stories? How about a bit of peer reviewed analysis on that?

You say 60,000 years of prior occupation. How does that fit with dating of the languages to 6,000 years?

You say 200 years of ethnic cleansing. That was conducted white on black, black on white. I don't judge either, because that was then, this is now. I bear no responsibility on either side.

Subjugation? Where do you see that now? Where do you see self responsibility now, while you are seeking your answers?

You have not seen me pretend that nothing is wrong. Something is very wrong. The Intervention recognised that and the then government acted and the results were significant. The current Woke Government let it lapse, despite urgent calls to not do so. There is something very wrong now, isn't there?

They did defend their land , and lost. Tasmanian aboriginals were relocated to one of the Bass Strait islands, as part of a peace deal that was supposed to be temporary. It wasn't. The dead were buried in unmarked graves, and in the 90s the graves were mapped and marked. Within 24 hours the markers were removed. In WA the aborigines attempted to fight back. A statue to their leader was beheaded. Read about the so called Battle of Pinjarra...a massacre in fact.

[Hallam]

Watching SBS and ABC yesterday, nothing but acknowledgement of elders past and present and then there were repeat warnings all day about images of dead people. It's brain dead stuff and the more they do it, the less votes the Voice will get.

I agree with Skuthorpe about his namesake, she's terrible. Her raving on about a treaty is all about money. Pay us...

I have to say, I like some of Stan Grant's writing... but every time I see that damn spray tan on TV, I reckon I've got the comedy channel on. As a mate who was watching it with me yesterday said... "reverse Michael Jackson".

The Opus Dei thing was so obviously just a hatchet job aimed at the Premier. Very droll.

You mention pedo's. There's a well known former Premier who protected a senior public servant. Its widely known.

As for the Veronica Nelson inquest.. call me a cynic if you must, but why hadn't the bleating mother and the bleating partner done anything for her? Shoplifting and not going to get gaol? There's the wrong in that system. A 33kg thieving heroin addict and the relatives and partner want to blame others? Look in the mirror ... and take some self responsibility.

Re the Veronica Nelson Inquest:

Lugs' Your statement was not referencing the inquest but a voicing of your opinion of her close relatives, the bleating mother and the bleating partner, not taking responsibility and blaming others. People have opinions which they are entitled to have and yours is clearly enunciated and clearly understood. I may be wrong but I have a feeling you are not here to dialogue in a reciprocal manner and that your position is firm and you are not likely to change your viewpoint in the light of further information. So with this in mind I will not be attempting to change your outlook on any subject encountered. I will state my viewpoint and leave it at that.

For your perusal I attach a link to the Corinor's Report:

Microsoft Word - Veronica Nelson - Final Finding-1227 (3).docx


The coroner deliberately, forcefully and somewhat overcome by emotion pointed out that specific recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody had not been implemented in all the years since those recommendations were made. If the findings were implemented Veronica would not have died in the manner she did in custody. It is also not unreasonable to hold the opinion that if she was not held in custody she would still be alive.

'Discriminatory impact on First Nations people': coroner calls for urgent bail reform in Veronica Nelson inquest
Coroner Simon McGregor found “cruel” and “degrading” treatment of Nelson caused her preventable death. Of the system, he said

A person in custody is not only deprived of their liberty [but also] deprived of the ability and resources to care for themselves. In short, the state’s control over the person is nearly complete.

[…] I find that the Bail Act has a discriminatory impact on First Nations people, resulting in grossly disproportionate rates of [First Nations people] remanded in custody, the most egregious of which affects alleged offenders who are Aboriginal and or Torres Strait Islander women.



Coroner reveals damning findings at Veronica Nelson inquest
McGregor said Nelson’s treatment was “cruel” and “degrading” and this treatment caused her death, which had been preventable. He also found her treatment by corrections staff had breached Section 10 of Victoria’s human rights charter.

The coronor also said the prison staff’s treatment of Nelson was also impacted by stigma around drug use and withdrawal.
“The assumption that it is normal for patients withdrawing at Dame Phyllis to experience a level of suffering normalises such suffering and results in the desensitisation of both corrections and Correct Care staff to this type of presentation,” McGregor said.
“As a result of this normalisation, corrections and current care staff were not responsive to the obvious signs of Veronica’s clinical deterioration, and thereby continually fail to recognise that she was in need of urgent medical care.”
The inquest heard that in the 12 hours before she died, no member of staff had opened her cell door to check on Nelson, including a nurse who spent her shift watching a movie.

Also of relevance:
quoted from an article in the Gaurdian:

Nelson had been withdrawing from heroin and an autopsy later found she had a rare undiagnosed gastrointestinal condition called Wilkie’s syndrome at the time of her death. She was malnourished and an autopsy later found she weighed 33kg and had a grossly dilated and distended stomach.
The Andrews government this month announced it would stop outsourcing healthcare in female prisons to for-profit companies.

[Lugs]

They did defend their land , and lost. Tasmanian aboriginals were relocated to one of the Bass Strait islands, as part of a peace deal that was supposed to be temporary. It wasn't. The dead were buried in unmarked graves, and in the 90s the graves were mapped and marked. Within 24 hours the markers were removed. In WA the aborigines attempted to fight back. A statue to their leader was beheaded. Read about the so called Battle of Pinjarra...a massacre in fact.

Yep. War is hell. It's over... but they want to whinge.

[Lugs]

Re the Veronica Nelson Inquest:

Lugs' Your statement was not referencing the inquest but a voicing of your opinion of her close relatives, the bleating mother and the bleating partner, not taking responsibility and blaming others. People have opinions which they are entitled to have and yours is clearly enunciated and clearly understood. I may be wrong but I have a feeling you are not here to dialogue in a reciprocal manner and that your position is firm and you are not likely to change your viewpoint in the light of further information. So with this in mind I will not be attempting to change your outlook on any subject encountered. I will state my viewpoint and leave it at that.

For your perusal I attach a link to the Corinor's Report:

Microsoft Word - Veronica Nelson - Final Finding-1227 (3).docx


The coroner deliberately, forcefully and somewhat overcome by emotion pointed out that specific recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody had not been implemented in all the years since those recommendations were made. If the findings were implemented Veronica would not have died in the manner she did in custody. It is also not unreasonable to hold the opinion that if she was not held in custody she would still be alive.

'Discriminatory impact on First Nations people': coroner calls for urgent bail reform in Veronica Nelson inquest
Coroner Simon McGregor found “cruel” and “degrading” treatment of Nelson caused her preventable death. Of the system, he said

A person in custody is not only deprived of their liberty [but also] deprived of the ability and resources to care for themselves. In short, the state’s control over the person is nearly complete.

[…] I find that the Bail Act has a discriminatory impact on First Nations people, resulting in grossly disproportionate rates of [First Nations people] remanded in custody, the most egregious of which affects alleged offenders who are Aboriginal and or Torres Strait Islander women.



Coroner reveals damning findings at Veronica Nelson inquest
McGregor said Nelson’s treatment was “cruel” and “degrading” and this treatment caused her death, which had been preventable. He also found her treatment by corrections staff had breached Section 10 of Victoria’s human rights charter.

The coronor also said the prison staff’s treatment of Nelson was also impacted by stigma around drug use and withdrawal.
“The assumption that it is normal for patients withdrawing at Dame Phyllis to experience a level of suffering normalises such suffering and results in the desensitisation of both corrections and Correct Care staff to this type of presentation,” McGregor said.
“As a result of this normalisation, corrections and current care staff were not responsive to the obvious signs of Veronica’s clinical deterioration, and thereby continually fail to recognise that she was in need of urgent medical care.”
The inquest heard that in the 12 hours before she died, no member of staff had opened her cell door to check on Nelson, including a nurse who spent her shift watching a movie.

Leaving your person judgements as just that, and it will come as no surprise to you that I don't agree with them, let's discuss Veronica's case.

She is dead because first and foremost, she was a heroin addict, she allegedly committed a crime, she was in excruciatingly poor health, her close relatives were apparently of no use to her and she fell between the cracks in a system that daily deals with withdrawing addicts. I listened to the tapes. The nurse made assumptions and she was wrong. She should have intervened, but she'd probably (based on discussions with a friend who was a warder) gotten sick of having feces flung at her by other withdrawing addicts. Incidentally, I put the reasons in the first sentence of this para in priority order - in my view.

Must've been some movie - it lasted the whole shift?

[Lugs]

'Doesn’t sit well with me’: Ash Gardner calls out January 26 scheduling​

Indigenous cricket star Ash Gardner has called out Cricket Australia’s decision to schedule a women’s international on January 26.

“As a proud Muruwari woman and reflecting on what Jan 26 means to me and my people it is a day of hurt and a day of mourning,” she wrote on Twitter.

“My culture is something I hold close to my heart and something I’m always so proud to speak about whenever asked.

“I also am fortunate enough to play cricket for a living which is something I dreamt of as a kid.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/cricke...b4659d10495216

Oh dear. maybe she should apply for a role at the Voice

[Lugs]

She's more than welcome to celebrate. She can't get away from the fact that she's Australian first... and anything else is subservient to that.

[Hallam]

Yep. War is hell. It's over... but they want to whinge.

The war is not over because there has not been a treaty.

This was the point of my earlier post #29608 in replying to you. Australia is the only Commonwealth country that has not signed a treaty with our Indigenous peoples therefore technically we are still at war.

Are you aware of the Barunga Statement?
A question worth researching is Why does Australia not have a Treaty with First Nations People?

I have formed the distinct impression that when First Nations people do speak in a more unified voice they are not listened to.

It is interesting to reflect on the follow on from the Barunga Statement, The Ularu Statement From the Heart........
This BBC article from just before the Ularu Statement.:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-40024622

[skuthorp]

Well, that didn't take long did it? Lugs has nailed his flag to the mast and makes Ian look positively benign on the subject. No point in any reasoned argument or an appeal for long postponed justice there.

[Paul Pless]

what are you talking about sku?

lugs is gatenby