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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #18411
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by m2c1Iw View Post
    Energy subsidies in Australia taken from a report by BAEcomonics commissioned by the Minerals Council of Australia.

    On a per MWh basis 2015-16:
    Generation from solar sources received by far the largest subsidies, corresponding to $214 perMWh.
    Wind generation subsidised at a rate of $74 per MWh.
    Subsidies attributable to all other renewable sources (or where the technology was not specified) $33 per MWh.
    Generation from all renewable sources was subsidised at a rate of $85 perMWh.

    Subsidies that are attributable to coal generation were $0.4 per MWh.
    Generation from non-renewable sources overall were $0.3 per MWh.
    Per unit of power then, renewables are subsidised by a factor of 535!
    So then the question, is it better to spend that much money to develop the technology and capability, indeed develop an industry - or - is it more costly in the long run to not spend it....?

    The science is in on that later question. Unless of course the Chinese are working with NASA and the CSIRO to bring down American coal companies.
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

    Nutshell Pram Build pictures ; https://photos.app.goo.gl/1GdBcckcgBAWsbVg1

  2. #18412
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Greg re the hacking, and the inevitability of it….
    I was really thinking of this new compilation of all passport and drivers licence photos on one facial recognition data base to help prevent terrorism. What a target for hacking, and it will be of course, sooner rather than later and they won't know, or won't tell, for purely political reasons. Then there's criminal access by those with access selling information. And then there's leakage, other agencies down to the dog catcher getting access. From the start Private Industry will be able to access the database 'under certain circumstances'. Wanna bet 'those circumstances' will be watered down as political and funding pressures are applied?

    And this will all happen, mass identity theft will become easy as, turning on your 'puter.
    Watch out, that glass of yours is pretty empty
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  3. #18413
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    My personal glass is quite full, but as for trusting our sorry lot of pollies to manage anything serious……………..
    No, they'll sell out, or get snowed, or give it away or ramp it up or it will be stolen. Or all of them.

    There's a quote about those who exchange freedoms for security………….

  4. #18414
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    My personal glass is quite full, but as for trusting our sorry lot of pollies to manage anything serious……………..
    No, they'll sell out, or get snowed, or give it away or ramp it up or it will be stolen. Or all of them.

    There's a quote about those who exchange freedoms for security………….
    Yes, I know you had personal experience with key members of the Labor Party. I understand how that's led you to this position.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  5. #18415
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I had no idea Labor were running Canberra at the moment Ian.... amazing the stuff you learn here !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  6. #18416
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    Paul Maley: Years ago, I had a discussion with a senior member of the parliamentary Liberal Party about climate change.The context was Labor’s emissions trading scheme, which at that time was being used by Kevin Rudd as a stick to beat Malcolm Turnbull, who was by then nearing the end of his term as opposition leader.

    The Liberal said to me, “Look, there are probably three views inside the Liberal Party on climate change. One, climate change is bull**** and we should do nothing about it. Two, climate change is bull**** but if the public believe it and want an ETS, be it on their own head. Three, climate change is real and we have to act.”

    At one point or another I suspect Tony Abbott has held all of these views, possibly all at once. The former prime minister’s contortions on climate policy have left him with zero credibility on the subject. It is the main reason why his climate speech in London was so breezily dismissed as an exercise in political opportunism, which of course it was.


    But if you could get past the look-at-me glibness of Abbott’s language, what was left over was a thoughtful speech that deserved to be taken seriously.


    For too long, too many on the right have been having the wrong argument on climate change. Instead of focusing on the wisdom of climate mitigation measures they remain mired in a debate about first principles. They think climate change is a hoax perpetrated by fraudulent greenies. The problem with this argument, aside from it being false, is that nobody is interested in having it any more.

    In his speech, Abbott said the theory of human-induced climate change was not settled science, and insofar as climate theory cannot claim the same level of certainty as, say, the theory of gravity, he was right. The “science is settled” brigade - to borrow Abbott’s phrase - would have us surrender our critical faculties to others. This is not reason, but faith.


    But the theory of how greenhouse gases warm the earth is plausible, the evidence that it is doing so is compelling and there is enough of it to start making policy. That is the near-unanimous judgment of the scientific community and poll after poll shows the public agrees.


    Climate deniers - and I’m not saying Abbott is one - might win headlines with their obscurantism, but more than ever they resemble those Japanese soldiers caught in the jungles 30 years after the war ended. They’re fighting a war that’s just not there any more.


    The important arguments are in the what-next category. This is where Abbott’s speech deserved to be taken seriously.


    Do renewables pass the cost-to-benefit test? How accurate are the climate change models used to predict the specific effects of anthropogenic warming? Is climate change in all its forms an unmitigated catastrophe, as all reflexively assume, or might there be an upside?


    On these questions there is huge uncertainty and ample room for debate, not just because the facts are uncertain, but because they involve making value judgments about competing social goods.


    In his speech Abbott talked about increased Co2 levels greening parts of the planet, a point for which he was roundly criticised - although not, I note, contradicted.


    It seems to me a richer vein would have been the inherent tension between poverty reduction and climate mitigation measures.


    Human-induced climate change is the by-product of industrialisation. It was a hundred years ago, and it remains so today. Industrialisation has lifted millions out of poverty. It has transformed societies, most notably our own. It has saved countless lives and extended many more. It has created the conditions for the prosperous, leisured existence we take for granted and would presumably like to see extend to the billions of people who still live in poverty.


    This begs an awkward question: are we really opposed to climate change in all its forms? What if coral bleaching on the Great Barrier Reef is the price we must pay for affordable energy in South Asia? What if renewables, for all their promise, can’t provide the horsepower required to lift millions out of poverty?


    I have no answers to these questions. But to allow the climate lobby to have their head on them would be to invite disaster. A stable climate is a social good. But it is a good that must be set against other social goods - prosperity, energy security, social equity. It may be these ends are as one, but I doubt it. I suspect hard choices will be required.


    Those choices belong to us all.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  7. #18417
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I had no idea Labor were running Canberra at the moment Ian.... amazing the stuff you learn here !
    Would you mind explaining how this comment is relevant to the prior discussions?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  8. #18418
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Thanks for the info regarding subsidies. I think. In truth I can't help thinking those numbers fail to take into account a whole lot of help of one sort or another given to the coal industry which is somehow not accounted for as a "subsidy" but I have no data so I'll leave it as an unsubstantiated lefty greeny conspiracy theory.

    Adani.

    But then there's this thing that coal will destroy the planet and kill all life forms, while renewables are getting cheaper and cheaper and effective storage is just around the corner. That's the news I choose to read. I don't believe what Tony Abbott says.

  9. #18419
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    However there is a chasm of difference between the sensational headlines:

    Top secret information about Australia’s military hacked

    and the reality:

    "An Australian Cyber Security Centre spokesperson said the information released by the ASD staffer, who works for the centre, was commercially sensitive but unclassified.“While the Australian company is a national-security linked contractor and the information disclosed was commercially sensitive, it was unclassified,” they said in a statement on Wednesday evening."
    The company in question had made virtually no attempt to secure the data. Their passwords were beyond a joke. They hadn't even changed them from the computer defaults. I could have done a better job drunk.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

  10. #18420
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    However there is a chasm of difference between the sensational headlines:

    Top secret information about Australia’s military hacked

    and the reality:

    "An Australian Cyber Security Centre spokesperson said the information released by the ASD staffer, who works for the centre, was commercially sensitive but unclassified.“While the Australian company is a national-security linked contractor and the information disclosed was commercially sensitive, it was unclassified,” they said in a statement on Wednesday evening."
    The company in question had made virtually no attempt to secure the data. Their passwords were beyond a joke. They hadn't even changed them from the computer defaults. I could have done a better job drunk.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

  11. #18421
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Possibly even me too! Password.... admin! Good Grief.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  12. #18422
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Yes, I know you had personal experience with key members of the Labor Party. I understand how that's led you to this position.
    Heh, Mr Pavlov again……………...

    And as far ass the Govt saying the information wasn't 'important". Well they would say that wouldn't they?*


    *(thank you Mandy)

  13. #18423
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Ian I was going to congratulate you such a thoughtful and well written post but then noticed the name "Paul Maley" at the start.

    Still thanks for posting I suspect many of us would agree with the observations it contains.

    Cheers

  14. #18424
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I had no idea Labor were running Canberra at the moment Ian.... amazing the stuff you learn here !
    Hmm, it seems to me the Government isn't even running itself at present.
    I understand they have had to cage them in in an effort to force them to do their job…..
    Last edited by skuthorp; 10-12-2017 at 04:41 AM.

  15. #18425
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    ''Human-induced climate change is the by-product of industrialisation. It was a hundred years ago, and it remains so today. Industrialisation has lifted millions out of poverty. It has transformed societies, most notably our own. It has saved countless lives and extended many more. It has created the conditions for the prosperous, leisured existence we take for granted and would presumably like to see extend to the billions of people who still live in poverty.

    This begs an awkward question: are we really opposed to climate change in all its forms? What if coral bleaching on the Great Barrier Reef is the price we must pay for affordable energy in South Asia? What if renewables, for all their promise, can’t provide the horsepower required to lift millions out of poverty?''

    What if fossil fueled technology pushes us into run away warming ? A real possibility if you look up material on "bio feedback loops" there are some horrifying scenarios. All the good coal has done up til now would be for naught especially now that the technologies to remove that risk exist.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  16. #18426
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    An interesting bit of socialism from Peter Costello.
    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...P=share_btn_fb
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  17. #18427
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Hmm, the for profit funds and their shareholders would not be happy.

  18. #18428
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Yes, excluding the market boys. Good for superannuants, less so for share holders
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  19. #18429
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Seems that Defence Dept. advice re food grown around Williamtown is that the locals should not eat ANYTHING they grow on site, but they can sell it into the food market for anyone else.

    Who'd a thunk it?

  20. #18430
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    A gap in regulation you could poison a lot of people through.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  21. #18431
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I think the DOD think that statistically, in the general marketplace, that's unlikely. But can you see the big supermarkets with Williamtown bred lamb, beef and chicken? "Only a little bit poisoned".

  22. #18432
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I can it without the label.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  23. #18433
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I see Kimmy has turned his attention to Aus.

    No one seems worried.

  24. #18434
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I suspect he's over estimating his capacity.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  25. #18435
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    If I remember rightly NK's last venture round our way was a ship full of drugs……………..

  26. #18436
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    True, the easiest way to kill a lot of Australians would be to add some nasty to their drugs.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  27. #18437
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Yes, I know you had personal experience with key members of the Labor Party. I understand how that's led you to this position.
    Since you're putting words in Skuthorp's mouth your point appears irrelevant, but on the topic you brought up I used to know a key member of the NSW Libs. He's just resigned after being revealed as depressingly unethical; just how unethical is something the police may decide. So if personal experience is the measure, then it's turned me off the Libs.
    Last edited by Chris249; 10-15-2017 at 05:01 PM.

  28. #18438
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    My BIL voted Liberal for decades but recently he's voting Green, he finds the current crop of "liberals" unacceptable as an option.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  29. #18439
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Politics is a dirty game Chris, the last thing any major wants as a candidate is someone with a strong ethical base, someone who calls the bull s**t, and someone who will not vote against his principles.
    Won't get past first base, the party organisation would make sure of that. That said, the Libs are a little better in the matter of dissent. In this the ALP is a dinosaur and it will hurt them.
    I rather like a Senate, and a Reps for that matter with a strong cross bench. Forces the parliament to operate as intended, collectively by negotiation. I am however disappointed at the attitudes of the majors to any sort of bipartisan cooperation except it seems on machinery matters, and their own benefits. But then 'politician' and 'ethics' in the same sentence has long been an oxymoron where the majors are concerned, and the arrival of the Paulines is just a logical extension.

  30. #18440
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I note News Poll gives Labour a lead 46 - 54, but the Paulines will likely do well and will swing the LibNats further right. I doubt Labour would get a simple majority in either house.

  31. #18441
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    More BS on the ABC right now. Last quoll on mainland in Vaucluse in 1963 they said. BS. I saw a dead one on the road between Armidale and Coffs Harbour in the late 70's.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  32. #18442
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Hypocrisy writ large, Australia elected to the UN Human rights Council.

  33. #18443
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I note News Poll gives Labour a lead 46 - 54, but the Paulines will likely do well and will swing the LibNats further right. I doubt Labour would get a simple majority in either house.
    An official RW coalition or something less binding ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  34. #18444
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Hypocrisy writ large, Australia elected to the UN Human rights Council.
    Joining some very bad actors, http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC...ntMembers.aspx....
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  35. #18445
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    "And contrary to the suggestion that the parties are always at loggerheads, there is commonly much negotiation and compromise between the majors, and others of course, on most legislation before tabling and during their passage."

    As I said, machinery matters.

    And I wasn't talking about the farce that is question time. A waste of good air time the by the way it is treated by the parliament, but it is really of no consequence except in the way the politicians undermine their own credibility.

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