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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #18411
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    "As the Australian government contemplates where to go next in terms of energy policy, the best approach involves acknowledging that enough is enough when it comes to subsidising renewable energy. The sector has been showered with favours, including volumetric guarantees courtesy of the RET. It is time it stood on its own two feet without any preferential treatment or financial assistance."

    I'll agree with reducing the subsidies, but a proper industry policy is needed, but seems unlikely There is no investment without some certainty. Dare I join some industry leaders and suggest a carbon price? But it's not going to fix the short term problem, and both majors and the Greens have blame in that. I can't see a government building a short term coal fired power station myself, and industry sure won't without massive subsidies. We may have a few 'power lean' years, and with no easy target to blame someone with an 'easy answer' may scoop the pool.


    I keep hearing that coal is subsidised. True?

    On on a topic raised elsewhere, I guess I can understand people not wanting a wind turbine in their back yard. I've never been close enough to one to hear the noise they make. But I wouldn't want a coal mine or a coal fired power station in my back yard either.

    I dont think it is possible to sensibly support coal or gas as a substantial future power source, or to sensibly oppose wind and solar.

    The NIMBY objection has to be quite distinct from the overall merits.

  2. #18412
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I keep hearing that coal is subsidised. True?

    On on a topic raised elsewhere, I guess I can understand people not wanting a wind turbine in their back yard. I've never been close enough to one to hear the noise they make. But I wouldn't want a coal mine or a coal fired power station in my back yard either.

    I dont think it is possible to sensibly support coal or gas as a substantial future power source, or to sensibly oppose wind and solar.

    The NIMBY objection has to be quite distinct from the overall merits.

    Unless we have a renewed willingness to flood river valleys for hydro, then coal & gas & nuclear are our only current options for the supply of baseload power - without which the whole joint, the whole world economy, would grind to a halt.

    These three materials are also by miles the cheapest sources of power. Therefore - and this is responding to the Sloan article posted somewhere above - without subsidies, and in a market economy, nobody is going to invest in renewables and the development of these alternative sources simply wouldn’t happen. Thus the investment of public money into renewables is good governance.

    But the point to grasp is that the technology is currently not remotely adequate to provide baseload power, nor even to provide power at anything even approximatimg the same cheap cost. We’re in a transition phase and can’t afford to let the cart get ahead of the horse.

  3. #18413
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A carbon price is an absolutely basic bit of policy but after years of Abbott and Abbott still conducting the orchestra that bit of policy is unlikely to appear.
    A carbon tax or whatever one cares to call it is a mechanism to influence the market it is not policy of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asap View Post
    Unless we have a renewed willingness to flood river valleys for hydro, then coal & gas & nuclear are our only current options for the supply of baseload power - without which the whole joint, the whole world economy, would grind to a halt.

    These three materials are also by miles the cheapest sources of power. Therefore - and this is responding to the Sloan article posted somewhere above - without subsidies, and in a market economy, nobody is going to invest in renewables and the development of these alternative sources simply wouldn’t happen. Thus the investment of public money into renewables is good governance.

    But the point to grasp is that the technology is currently not remotely adequate to provide baseload power, nor even to provide power at anything even approximating the same cheap cost. We’re in a transition phase and can’t afford to let the cart get ahead of the horse.
    Agreed, therefore a carbon tax will not by itself solve the problem. A policy needs to address baseload capacity for the next 20 or so years at least and it would seem government intervention and investment in generation that uses one or all of the three fuels is required now. This of course is dependent on being able to sell the concepts provide proper oversight of the projects and manage the investments something that has been lacking in recent years.....but hey it's been done before.
    I think we can safely cross nuclear off the list as a short term solution in the current political climate any opposition would have a field day with that one. Coal is thanks to the Greens totally on the nose even with advances in technology and managing emissions so that leaves "Gas"...but hang on we've sold it all overseas.

    Now this is where we get to policy and protecting the national interest. Oh and calling a meeting of gas producers to create short term reserves is not policy development either.

  4. #18414
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I keep hearing that coal is subsidised. True?
    As i understand it, through tax exemptions, excise exemptions and capital investment subsidies, Coal is subsidized about $1.8billion a year.

    I'm firmly in the renewables camp BUT; the interesting subsidy number is the one against the power provided.
    For every unit of energy coal is subsidised $x
    As far as i know, subsidy for the same unit of energy from renewables is about 400 times that - or something like that.

    Clearly not a very scientific post - so if you find research that shows me to be incorrect please post. I'd like to see the facts.
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

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  5. #18415
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    Something I've long thought of as a good and probably inexhaustible source of clean power is the East Coat Current. Millions of tons of water just off shore from our prime population centers moving at what, 4 km per hour ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  6. #18416
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    So, 30gig of defence data stolen from a contractor that used 'admin' as the password to their administration files? And the hacker was in there for months?

    Who'd a thunk it?
    However there is a chasm of difference between the sensational headlines:

    Top secret information about Australia’s military hacked

    and the reality:

    "An Australian Cyber Security Centre spokesperson said the information released by the ASD staffer, who works for the centre, was commercially sensitive but unclassified.“While the Australian company is a national-security linked contractor and the information disclosed was commercially sensitive, it was unclassified,” they said in a statement on Wednesday evening."
    Larks

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    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  7. #18417
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Energy subsidies in Australia taken from a report by BAEcomonics commissioned by the Minerals Council of Australia.

    On a per MWh basis 2015-16:
    Generation from solar sources received by far the largest subsidies, corresponding to $214 perMWh.
    Wind generation subsidised at a rate of $74 per MWh.
    Subsidies attributable to all other renewable sources (or where the technology was not specified) $33 per MWh.
    Generation from all renewable sources was subsidised at a rate of $85 perMWh.

    Subsidies that are attributable to coal generation were $0.4 per MWh.
    Generation from non-renewable sources overall were $0.3 per MWh.

  8. #18418
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Something I've long thought of as a good and probably inexhaustible source of clean power is the East Coat Current. Millions of tons of water just off shore from our prime population centers moving at what, 4 km per hour ?

    Nup, the Greenies would protest that you’d be mincing whales.

    However, I do agree with you Peter, likewise the flow both ways from the enormous tides up north and harnessing wave power energy.......all sustainable, emission free and everywhere around the country. There was one at Garden Island in WA and for the life of me I don’t understand why they aren’t everywhere.

    Could you imagine the consistent turbine power created if a decent sized channel was dug in from the ocean in Darwin with tides up to 9 metres coming in and out every day?
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  9. #18419
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    The thing about the East Coast current is it runs down the East Coast where we need the power.

    As for Greenies, I'm a Greenie and I reckon there'd be a way of keeping marine life out of the mincer.

    The Darwin tide idea ? Yep, but it's a long way North.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  10. #18420
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Greg re the hacking, and the inevitability of it….
    I was really thinking of this new compilation of all passport and drivers licence photos on one facial recognition data base to help prevent terrorism. What a target for hacking, and it will be of course, sooner rather than later and they won't know, or won't tell, for purely political reasons. Then there's criminal access by those with access selling information. And then there's leakage, other agencies down to the dog catcher getting access. From the start Private Industry will be able to access the database 'under certain circumstances'. Wanna bet 'those circumstances' will be watered down as political and funding pressures are applied?

    And this will all happen, mass identity theft will become easy as, turning on your 'puter.

  11. #18421
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by m2c1Iw View Post
    Energy subsidies in Australia taken from a report by BAEcomonics commissioned by the Minerals Council of Australia.

    On a per MWh basis 2015-16:
    Generation from solar sources received by far the largest subsidies, corresponding to $214 perMWh.
    Wind generation subsidised at a rate of $74 per MWh.
    Subsidies attributable to all other renewable sources (or where the technology was not specified) $33 per MWh.
    Generation from all renewable sources was subsidised at a rate of $85 perMWh.

    Subsidies that are attributable to coal generation were $0.4 per MWh.
    Generation from non-renewable sources overall were $0.3 per MWh.
    Per unit of power then, renewables are subsidised by a factor of 535!
    So then the question, is it better to spend that much money to develop the technology and capability, indeed develop an industry - or - is it more costly in the long run to not spend it....?

    The science is in on that later question. Unless of course the Chinese are working with NASA and the CSIRO to bring down American coal companies.
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

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  12. #18422
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Greg re the hacking, and the inevitability of it….
    I was really thinking of this new compilation of all passport and drivers licence photos on one facial recognition data base to help prevent terrorism. What a target for hacking, and it will be of course, sooner rather than later and they won't know, or won't tell, for purely political reasons. Then there's criminal access by those with access selling information. And then there's leakage, other agencies down to the dog catcher getting access. From the start Private Industry will be able to access the database 'under certain circumstances'. Wanna bet 'those circumstances' will be watered down as political and funding pressures are applied?

    And this will all happen, mass identity theft will become easy as, turning on your 'puter.
    Watch out, that glass of yours is pretty empty
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  13. #18423
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    My personal glass is quite full, but as for trusting our sorry lot of pollies to manage anything serious……………..
    No, they'll sell out, or get snowed, or give it away or ramp it up or it will be stolen. Or all of them.

    There's a quote about those who exchange freedoms for security………….

  14. #18424
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    My personal glass is quite full, but as for trusting our sorry lot of pollies to manage anything serious……………..
    No, they'll sell out, or get snowed, or give it away or ramp it up or it will be stolen. Or all of them.

    There's a quote about those who exchange freedoms for security………….
    Yes, I know you had personal experience with key members of the Labor Party. I understand how that's led you to this position.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  15. #18425
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    I had no idea Labor were running Canberra at the moment Ian.... amazing the stuff you learn here !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  16. #18426
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Paul Maley: Years ago, I had a discussion with a senior member of the parliamentary Liberal Party about climate change.The context was Labor’s emissions trading scheme, which at that time was being used by Kevin Rudd as a stick to beat Malcolm Turnbull, who was by then nearing the end of his term as opposition leader.

    The Liberal said to me, “Look, there are probably three views inside the Liberal Party on climate change. One, climate change is bull**** and we should do nothing about it. Two, climate change is bull**** but if the public believe it and want an ETS, be it on their own head. Three, climate change is real and we have to act.”

    At one point or another I suspect Tony Abbott has held all of these views, possibly all at once. The former prime minister’s contortions on climate policy have left him with zero credibility on the subject. It is the main reason why his climate speech in London was so breezily dismissed as an exercise in political opportunism, which of course it was.


    But if you could get past the look-at-me glibness of Abbott’s language, what was left over was a thoughtful speech that deserved to be taken seriously.


    For too long, too many on the right have been having the wrong argument on climate change. Instead of focusing on the wisdom of climate mitigation measures they remain mired in a debate about first principles. They think climate change is a hoax perpetrated by fraudulent greenies. The problem with this argument, aside from it being false, is that nobody is interested in having it any more.

    In his speech, Abbott said the theory of human-induced climate change was not settled science, and insofar as climate theory cannot claim the same level of certainty as, say, the theory of gravity, he was right. The “science is settled” brigade - to borrow Abbott’s phrase - would have us surrender our critical faculties to others. This is not reason, but faith.


    But the theory of how greenhouse gases warm the earth is plausible, the evidence that it is doing so is compelling and there is enough of it to start making policy. That is the near-unanimous judgment of the scientific community and poll after poll shows the public agrees.


    Climate deniers - and I’m not saying Abbott is one - might win headlines with their obscurantism, but more than ever they resemble those Japanese soldiers caught in the jungles 30 years after the war ended. They’re fighting a war that’s just not there any more.


    The important arguments are in the what-next category. This is where Abbott’s speech deserved to be taken seriously.


    Do renewables pass the cost-to-benefit test? How accurate are the climate change models used to predict the specific effects of anthropogenic warming? Is climate change in all its forms an unmitigated catastrophe, as all reflexively assume, or might there be an upside?


    On these questions there is huge uncertainty and ample room for debate, not just because the facts are uncertain, but because they involve making value judgments about competing social goods.


    In his speech Abbott talked about increased Co2 levels greening parts of the planet, a point for which he was roundly criticised - although not, I note, contradicted.


    It seems to me a richer vein would have been the inherent tension between poverty reduction and climate mitigation measures.


    Human-induced climate change is the by-product of industrialisation. It was a hundred years ago, and it remains so today. Industrialisation has lifted millions out of poverty. It has transformed societies, most notably our own. It has saved countless lives and extended many more. It has created the conditions for the prosperous, leisured existence we take for granted and would presumably like to see extend to the billions of people who still live in poverty.


    This begs an awkward question: are we really opposed to climate change in all its forms? What if coral bleaching on the Great Barrier Reef is the price we must pay for affordable energy in South Asia? What if renewables, for all their promise, can’t provide the horsepower required to lift millions out of poverty?


    I have no answers to these questions. But to allow the climate lobby to have their head on them would be to invite disaster. A stable climate is a social good. But it is a good that must be set against other social goods - prosperity, energy security, social equity. It may be these ends are as one, but I doubt it. I suspect hard choices will be required.


    Those choices belong to us all.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  17. #18427
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I had no idea Labor were running Canberra at the moment Ian.... amazing the stuff you learn here !
    Would you mind explaining how this comment is relevant to the prior discussions?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  18. #18428
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Thanks for the info regarding subsidies. I think. In truth I can't help thinking those numbers fail to take into account a whole lot of help of one sort or another given to the coal industry which is somehow not accounted for as a "subsidy" but I have no data so I'll leave it as an unsubstantiated lefty greeny conspiracy theory.

    Adani.

    But then there's this thing that coal will destroy the planet and kill all life forms, while renewables are getting cheaper and cheaper and effective storage is just around the corner. That's the news I choose to read. I don't believe what Tony Abbott says.

  19. #18429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    However there is a chasm of difference between the sensational headlines:

    Top secret information about Australia’s military hacked

    and the reality:

    "An Australian Cyber Security Centre spokesperson said the information released by the ASD staffer, who works for the centre, was commercially sensitive but unclassified.“While the Australian company is a national-security linked contractor and the information disclosed was commercially sensitive, it was unclassified,” they said in a statement on Wednesday evening."
    The company in question had made virtually no attempt to secure the data. Their passwords were beyond a joke. They hadn't even changed them from the computer defaults. I could have done a better job drunk.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

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  20. #18430
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    However there is a chasm of difference between the sensational headlines:

    Top secret information about Australia’s military hacked

    and the reality:

    "An Australian Cyber Security Centre spokesperson said the information released by the ASD staffer, who works for the centre, was commercially sensitive but unclassified.“While the Australian company is a national-security linked contractor and the information disclosed was commercially sensitive, it was unclassified,” they said in a statement on Wednesday evening."
    The company in question had made virtually no attempt to secure the data. Their passwords were beyond a joke. They hadn't even changed them from the computer defaults. I could have done a better job drunk.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

  21. #18431
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Possibly even me too! Password.... admin! Good Grief.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  22. #18432
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Yes, I know you had personal experience with key members of the Labor Party. I understand how that's led you to this position.
    Heh, Mr Pavlov again……………...

    And as far ass the Govt saying the information wasn't 'important". Well they would say that wouldn't they?*


    *(thank you Mandy)

  23. #18433
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Ian I was going to congratulate you such a thoughtful and well written post but then noticed the name "Paul Maley" at the start.

    Still thanks for posting I suspect many of us would agree with the observations it contains.

    Cheers

  24. #18434
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I had no idea Labor were running Canberra at the moment Ian.... amazing the stuff you learn here !
    Hmm, it seems to me the Government isn't even running itself at present.
    I understand they have had to cage them in in an effort to force them to do their job…..
    Last edited by skuthorp; 10-12-2017 at 04:41 AM.

  25. #18435
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    ''Human-induced climate change is the by-product of industrialisation. It was a hundred years ago, and it remains so today. Industrialisation has lifted millions out of poverty. It has transformed societies, most notably our own. It has saved countless lives and extended many more. It has created the conditions for the prosperous, leisured existence we take for granted and would presumably like to see extend to the billions of people who still live in poverty.

    This begs an awkward question: are we really opposed to climate change in all its forms? What if coral bleaching on the Great Barrier Reef is the price we must pay for affordable energy in South Asia? What if renewables, for all their promise, can’t provide the horsepower required to lift millions out of poverty?''

    What if fossil fueled technology pushes us into run away warming ? A real possibility if you look up material on "bio feedback loops" there are some horrifying scenarios. All the good coal has done up til now would be for naught especially now that the technologies to remove that risk exist.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  26. #18436
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    An interesting bit of socialism from Peter Costello.
    https://www.theguardian.com/australi...P=share_btn_fb
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  27. #18437
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Hmm, the for profit funds and their shareholders would not be happy.

  28. #18438
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Yes, excluding the market boys. Good for superannuants, less so for share holders
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  29. #18439
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Seems that Defence Dept. advice re food grown around Williamtown is that the locals should not eat ANYTHING they grow on site, but they can sell it into the food market for anyone else.

    Who'd a thunk it?

  30. #18440
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    A gap in regulation you could poison a lot of people through.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  31. #18441
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I think the DOD think that statistically, in the general marketplace, that's unlikely. But can you see the big supermarkets with Williamtown bred lamb, beef and chicken? "Only a little bit poisoned".

  32. #18442
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I can it without the label.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  33. #18443
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I see Kimmy has turned his attention to Aus.

    No one seems worried.

  34. #18444
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I suspect he's over estimating his capacity.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  35. #18445
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    If I remember rightly NK's last venture round our way was a ship full of drugs……………..

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