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Thread: Oz Politics.

  1. #19566
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Oh dear, implied approval...will that satisfy you ?

    “The ALP policies could introduce some downward pressure on property prices in the short term, particularly if the commencement of the policy coincides with a weaker housing market,” they wrote.
    “In the long term, increases in taxation on rental property could have a relatively modest downward impact on property prices”…
    Changes to negative gearing in the 1980s, and the introduction of the CGT discount in the 1990s, had “little discernible impact on the market”, officials noted.
    “Overall, price changes are likely to be small, though the composition of ownership may shift away from domestic investors”…

    and one thing the above does illustrate well is that Turnbull and Morrison lied about the effects Labor's proposal would have.
    Nope.

    You're holding yourself to a different standard... but failing.

    Man up
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  2. #19567
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    When you own up to supporting liars.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  3. #19568
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    When you own up to supporting liars.
    First up, you don't know who I voted for.

    Secondly... the following statements aren't lies.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    What they said about Labor's negative gearing policy


    • "It is the most ill-conceived, potentially destructive policy ever proposed by any opposition." Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, February 24, 2016
    • "The Labor Party have just gone out there with a growth destroying, home price destroying … set of tax measures." Treasurer Scott Morrison, March 3, 2016
    • "Those opposite want to take a chainsaw to the housing market … Those opposite want to go into the housing market and hack away with an axe." Treasurer Scott Morrison, May 10, 2017
    Which can't be said of your claim that Treasury "approved" Labor's proposal.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  4. #19569
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Well at least you've proven you can't recognise a Liberal lie. Your selective vision is 20/20.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  5. #19570
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    First up, you don't know who I voted for.

    Secondly... the following statements aren't lies.




    Which can't be said of your claim that Treasury "approved" Labor's proposal.
    Your quote is from the LIbs not the treasury. The treasury said there would be some downturn effect from the Labor proposal, nowhere did it say it was a bad idea...that was the LIbNat emotive response.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  6. #19571
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Yep, Morrison and Turnbull trumpeted the opposite of the Treasury statement..... that qualifies as fully fledged lie and deception of the population.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  7. #19572
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I'm sorry Peter, I have to laugh…. "that qualifies as fully fledged lie and deception of the population" They are politicians, and very 'good' at what they do. Q.E.D.
    I doubt the ALP could do much 'better' if they were in the red chairs.

  8. #19573
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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Your quote is from the LIbs not the treasury. The treasury said there would be some downturn effect from the Labor proposal, nowhere did it say it was a bad idea...that was the LIbNat emotive response.
    Gee, can't you guys read?

    The Treasury document uses the words "could"... not "would".

    Here's something else it says "The after-tax returns on share investments will be reduced for Australian residents"

    That's not exactly a good thing, is it? Or is that a silly thing to ask? I suppose I should ask it of folks who pay tax.

    It also says "The after-tax returns on commercial property investments will be reduced for Australian residents"

    It goes further.... "The after-tax returns on existing residential property investments will be reduced for Australian residents"

    So, if returns are reduced, what do you think that will do for demand for those investments?

    What do you think will happen to rents if returns are reduced? What chance that those who are in the lower income levels will be faced with rent increases? Yep. Think. I know it hurts some of you to think... but just try it.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  9. #19574
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Yep, Morrison and Turnbull trumpeted the opposite of the Treasury statement..... that qualifies as fully fledged lie and deception of the population.
    Actually, they didn't.

    Try reading the document, rather than blathering on.

    There's definitely one fully fledged lie floating around the place though. I'm sure Treasury would approve of an integrity downgrade for that one though.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  10. #19575
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    I did , perhaps you should.
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  11. #19576
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Gee, can't you guys read?

    The Treasury document uses the words "could"... not "would".

    Here's something else it says "The after-tax returns on share investments will be reduced for Australian residents"

    That's not exactly a good thing, is it? Or is that a silly thing to ask? I suppose I should ask it of folks who pay tax.

    It also says "The after-tax returns on commercial property investments will be reduced for Australian residents"

    It goes further.... "The after-tax returns on existing residential property investments will be reduced for Australian residents"

    So, if returns are reduced, what do you think that will do for demand for those investments?

    What do you think will happen to rents if returns are reduced? What chance that those who are in the lower income levels will be faced with rent increases? Yep. Think. I know it hurts some of you to think... but just try it.
    That makes the possible effect even more doubtful, could implies...maybe.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  12. #19577
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    That makes the possible effect even more doubtful, could implies...maybe.
    Indeed... Treasury really didn't do much analysis of it, did they? No comment from them on demand.... and, as we know, prices are a function of supply and demand.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  13. #19578
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    And house prices go down, parents get to see their kids instead of spending their lives paying off a mortgage. Housing as shelter, not a tax avoidance device.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  14. #19579
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Much the same story in NSW, the Libs prefer "investors'' and speculators over people needing shelter .

    NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian ignored Treasury advice on tackling negative gearing

    By Sarah Hawke
    Updated about 10 hours ago
    PHOTO: Ms Berejiklian said housing affordability was a priority but did not raise the issue federally. (AAP: Paul Miller)
    RELATED STORY: Gladys Berejiklian struggles with negative gearing headache
    RELATED STORY: 'Severely unaffordable': Sydney's housing nightmare laid bare in new survey



    New South Wales Treasury advised the State Government negative gearing changes would improve housing affordability, leaked documents have revealed.
    Key points:

    • NSW Treasury advised that negative gearing distorts the housing market
    • Ms Berejiklian later said she was reluctant to pursue negative gearing changes
    • She listed housing affordability among her top priorities when taking over as Premier



    The confidential cabinet briefing note, obtained by Labor, was provided in December 2016 to then-treasurer Gladys Berejiklian ahead of a Council on Federal Financial Relations meeting.
    The note suggested negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount create substantial distortions to the housing market and favour investors.
    It recommended the Commonwealth Treasury review the impact of the policies on housing affordability and consider alternative options.
    Just a month later Ms Berejiklian said she was reluctant to pursue negative gearing changes with the Federal Government, despite declaring as the new Premier housing affordability was one of her top priorities.
    "I don't feel at this stage that is something I would necessarily touch in relation to housing affordability," she told ABC's Fran Kelly in January 2017.
    Shadow treasurer Ryan Parker said the Government had failed to act on the Treasury advice.

    More at. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-1...earing/9319668
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  15. #19580
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Indeed... Treasury really didn't do much analysis of it, did they? No comment from them on demand.... and, as we know, prices are a function of supply and demand.
    Reduce the supply and the price goes up with the demand.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  16. #19581
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Ha ha. Complaining about distortions in the market? How about subsidised government housing. Take a look at Glebe... there's 1,200 or so prostitutes, druggies and various no-hopers living in gubbie housing. Guess what that does to the available housing stock for students. Yep... prices through the roof.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  17. #19582
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Reduce the supply and the price goes up with the demand.
    Indeed.... and Labor's proposal would reduce investors providing houses.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  18. #19583
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Given the same information one side sees black and the other white, that's what I get from this exchange. The government, in trouble, fudges the figures, the opposition has less need to do so because of their poll standing, doubt is sufficient for them and the less the ALP says about it the better. The press is doing the work already.

    Its a zero sum argument.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 01-11-2018 at 07:13 AM.

  19. #19584
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Given the same information one side sees black and the other white, that's what I get from this exchange. The government, in trouble, fudges the figures, the opposition has less need to do so because of their poll standing, doubt is sufficient for them and the less the ALP says about it the better. The press is doing the work already.

    Its a zero sum argument.
    Well, given one guy proclaims an incomplete (and redacted) analysis as a Treasury approval, what do you expect? Of course, the partisan crowd don't bother telling him how foolish his statement is.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  20. #19585
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Ha ha. Complaining about distortions in the market? How about subsidised government housing. Take a look at Glebe... there's 1,200 or so prostitutes, druggies and various no-hopers living in gubbie housing. Guess what that does to the available housing stock for students. Yep... prices through the roof.
    Do you have proof they all what you claim they are?
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  21. #19586
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Do you have proof they all what you claim they are?
    Sentences are wonderful things at times. Other times, they are just an agglomeration of words. This is one of those other times. I wonder what was going through your mind as they appeared on the screen?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  22. #19587
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Indeed.... and Labor's proposal would reduce investors providing houses.
    Oh dear, wake up Ian . Currently negative gearing is largely on existing stock. Labor's policy was to have negative gearing on NEW construction only..... increasing the housing stock. Think man, think!
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  23. #19588
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Much the same story in NSW, the Libs prefer "investors'' and speculators over people needing shelter .

    NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian ignored Treasury advice on tackling negative gearing

    By Sarah Hawke
    Updated about 10 hours ago
    PHOTO: Ms Berejiklian said housing affordability was a priority but did not raise the issue federally. (AAP: Paul Miller)
    RELATED STORY: Gladys Berejiklian struggles with negative gearing headache
    RELATED STORY: 'Severely unaffordable': Sydney's housing nightmare laid bare in new survey



    New South Wales Treasury advised the State Government negative gearing changes would improve housing affordability, leaked documents have revealed.
    Key points:


    • NSW Treasury advised that negative gearing distorts the housing market
    • Ms Berejiklian later said she was reluctant to pursue negative gearing changes
    • She listed housing affordability among her top priorities when taking over as Premier



    The confidential cabinet briefing note, obtained by Labor, was provided in December 2016 to then-treasurer Gladys Berejiklian ahead of a Council on Federal Financial Relations meeting.
    The note suggested negative gearing and the capital gains tax discount create substantial distortions to the housing market and favour investors.
    It recommended the Commonwealth Treasury review the impact of the policies on housing affordability and consider alternative options.
    Just a month later Ms Berejiklian said she was reluctant to pursue negative gearing changes with the Federal Government, despite declaring as the new Premier housing affordability was one of her top priorities.
    "I don't feel at this stage that is something I would necessarily touch in relation to housing affordability," she told ABC's Fran Kelly in January 2017.
    Shadow treasurer Ryan Parker said the Government had failed to act on the Treasury advice.

    More at. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-1...earing/9319668
    Ignoring Treasury advice on negative gearing seems to be Lib policy these days. Look after the tax avoiders, forget families. Not really a good long term policy.
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  24. #19589
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post
    Sentences are wonderful things at times. Other times, they are just an agglomeration of words. This is one of those other times. I wonder what was going through your mind as they appeared on the screen?
    You stated all 1200 people were either prostitutes, druggies or no hoppers. I was curious as to whether you actually had proof or were just making another of your biased generalisations about government housing.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  25. #19590
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Oh dear, wake up Ian . Currently negative gearing is largely on existing stock. Labor's policy was to have negative gearing on NEW construction only..... increasing the housing stock. Think man, think!
    I was commenting on Gary's non-sentence.... and this is what you made of that? OKaaaay.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Ignoring Treasury advice on negative gearing seems to be Lib policy these days. Look after the tax avoiders, forget families. Not really a good long term policy.
    As we well know, AFTER deductions for things like negative gearing, over half of all income tax is paid by just 10% of taxpayers. We also know that over half the population are net takers, not taxpayers. Do you really want to strangle the goose that lays the golden eggs? Tax deductions for investments are, by and large, good things. It means money is put into circulation in this country. Strangle the opportunities and the money will find other destinations.... a bit like the way Chinese investment money now finds its way to this country. Money is mobile. Utilise it. Reap the benefits the right way - tax consumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    You stated all 1200 people were either prostitutes, druggies or no hoppers. I was curious as to whether you actually had proof or were just making another of your biased generalisations about government housing.
    Oh, that's what you were on about? You obviously omitted to include some of the words buzzing around in your head at the time, I guess? You want a reference? Personal discussions with a former public housing executive. BTW, what's a "no hopper"?
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  26. #19591
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    A no hopper is an example of what to get with touch screen typing and large fingers.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  27. #19592
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Bigfella View Post

    As we well know, AFTER deductions for things like negative gearing, over half of all income tax is paid by just 10% of taxpayers. We also know that over half the population are net takers, not taxpayers. Do you really want to strangle the goose that lays the golden eggs? Tax deductions for investments are, by and large, good things. It means money is put into circulation in this country. Strangle the opportunities and the money will find other destinations.... a bit like the way Chinese investment money now finds its way to this country. Money is mobile. Utilise it. Reap the benefits the right way - tax consumption.
    In that case you agree with Labor's proposal, aimed directly at generating new housing as well as providing a deduction. Nice to see you thinking .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  28. #19593
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    In that case you agree with Labor's proposal, aimed directly at generating new housing as well as providing a deduction. Nice to see you thinking .
    Nope.

    Negative gearing applies to a number of different asset classes. To restrict it to new housing stock creates distortions in the market. The benefits of it in existing assets, such as residential housing accrue to a wide range of people. Firstly, the investors are engaging in self responsibility - they are taking care of their own future, rather than relying on the government to cater for their living expenses in later life. There are then a whole heap of service providers who benefit.

    Oh yeah... as a greenie, I fully support negative gearing on existing residential stocks. It encourages maintenance and life extension of assets, rather than seeing them discarded and torn down for redevelopments. It's MUCH better for the environment. I'm surprised to see you being so close-minded that you ignore the obvious environmental aspects of it. Oh, hang on, I guess I'm not surprised to see lefties being close-minded. After all, they vote for the left.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  29. #19594
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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    A no hopper is an example of what to get with touch screen typing and large fingers.
    ..

    Enough for now. This no-hoper has to hop on his bike and choof off. I'm riding with three lovely ladies today. Someone has to do it.... but, shh.... don't tell anyone, there's a Harley involved.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  30. #19595
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Close minded ? Nup, that's your territory. If the Oz doesn't approve it's a no goer for you , no matter how logical.
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    And house prices go down, parents get to see their kids instead of spending their lives paying off a mortgage. Housing as shelter, not a tax avoidance device.
    Also, you want to start a small business but you're up to your chin in debt just for a roof over your head.
    Over a million dollar house is a normal house now, being a million dollars in debt for a working mum and dad is a real handbrake on taking financial risks.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  32. #19597
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Who benefits from tax money?

    To cherry pick an example; Over half of all arts funding in Australia goes to Opera. One artform patronized almost exclusively by very wealthy people ($400 tickets even after subsidy) - you never hear this mentioned when people talk about welfare. (Ballet gets the next biggest chunk, popular music gets zero).

    I can state categorically that 100% of Australians benefit from some kind of government subsidy. I would add that if everyone who became rich in Australia actually had to pay for all of the costs for their wealth (education/law enforcement/regulation/physical infrastructure) we'd find that the wealthiest of all citizens are net beneficiaries.

    I would further propose, as a long shot, that PAYE workers receive the least benefit from government subsidies. They have very few tax deductions - they are not in control of the tax coming out of their pockets. They tend to not have a whole lot of disposable income and so participate little in projects supported by government funding. I would hazard that PAYE workers are the closer to 'net tax payers' than any wealthy person, particularly compared to the extremely wealthy (who we know don't pay any tax anyway).
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  33. #19598
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    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Unhappiness in the South Pacific . http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-1...mments/9323420

    Samoan PM hits back at Australia's 'insulting' criticism of China's aid program in Pacific

    Pacific Beat
    By Bruce Hill

    Posted about 3 hours ago
    PHOTO: Samoa's Prime Minister has made accessibility to the media a government priority. (Facebook: Government of Samoa)
    RELATED STORY: Diplomatic row breaks out over Australia's 'irresponsible' attack on China aid
    RELATED STORY: 'Roads that go nowhere': Turnbull Minister hits out at Chinese aid to Pacific
    RELATED STORY: China extends its influence in the South Pacific
    MAP: Samoa

    Samoa's Prime Minister says a Federal Government frontbencher's criticism of China's aid program is "insulting" to Pacific Island leaders, and has the capacity to "destroy" Australia's relationship with the region.
    Key points:

    • Tuilaepa Sailele says the comments "question the integrity" of Pacific leaders
    • He said China gives assistance to Samoa that Australia's aid budget cannot provide
    • China is Samoa's second-largest aid donor behind Australia



    The comments come on the heels of a bubbling diplomatic row that has broken out between Australia and China regarding Pacific relations, with Beijing lodging a formal protest over International Development Minister Concetta Fierravanti-Wells' attack on its Pacific aid programs.
    Senator Fierravanti-Wells on Wednesday accused China of building "roads to nowhere" and "useless buildings" in the Pacific.

    "The comments by the Development Minister have certainly surprised me, indeed, they are quite insulting to the leaders of Pacific Island neighbours," Samoan Prime Minister Tuilaepa Sailele told the ABC.
    "To me the comments seem to question the integrity, wisdom and intelligence of the leaders of the Pacific Islands."
    Tuilaepa said the comments undermined Australia's diplomatic efforts in the region.
    "These kinds of comments can destroy the excellent relationships existing between Australia and the Pacific Island neighbours, particularly Samoa," he said.
    The Samoan leader said he disagreed with Senator Fierravanti-Wells' claim that Chinese money was being misspent, and said the money has proved crucial in his country's efforts to deal with the impact of climate change.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  34. #19599
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    49,353

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    Who'd a thunk it.
    I guess the balancing act is hard to learn when the anglo status quo has been more or less in place since 1788.
    I bet they didn't expect the Chinese to react so strongly. Aus. has a big rival for the Pacific Nations' affections.

  35. #19600
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    70,729

    Default Re: Oz Politics.

    An interesting old poster, it seems the date is variable.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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