Boat covers

[gert]

Is"Vinahide" 100% polyvinyl chloride with polyester back in 28.5 oz./lin yd with a 500 hr UV resistance and a 116.8 lb x 108lb- ASTM 5136 Trapezoidal tear strength etc suitable for a "traveling" boat cover?

[gert]

Is"Vinahide" 100% polyvinyl chloride with polyester back in 28.5 oz./lin yd with a 500 hr UV resistance and a 116.8 lb x 108lb- ASTM 5136 Trapezoidal tear strength etc suitable for a "traveling" boat cover?

[gert]

Is"Vinahide" 100% polyvinyl chloride with polyester back in 28.5 oz./lin yd with a 500 hr UV resistance and a 116.8 lb x 108lb- ASTM 5136 Trapezoidal tear strength etc suitable for a "traveling" boat cover?

[htom]

Bump.

Don't know. Watching boats going by on the freeway with covers, I'm inclined to think that the number of attachment points may be a very significant factor; most of those that had few (more than ? two feet between grommets) had tears, while those with many (maybe 6" between) were fitting better and were not torn.

[htom]

Bump.

Don't know. Watching boats going by on the freeway with covers, I'm inclined to think that the number of attachment points may be a very significant factor; most of those that had few (more than ? two feet between grommets) had tears, while those with many (maybe 6" between) were fitting better and were not torn.

[htom]

Bump.

Don't know. Watching boats going by on the freeway with covers, I'm inclined to think that the number of attachment points may be a very significant factor; most of those that had few (more than ? two feet between grommets) had tears, while those with many (maybe 6" between) were fitting better and were not torn.

[NormMessinger]

Well, some are made from Sunberella (sp) which would be much lighter and not coated. A friend had one made out of the heavy "rubber" coated stuff they make over=the=road truck trailer covers with. It is a dandy and it sounds from your discription similiar.

--Norm

[NormMessinger]

Well, some are made from Sunberella (sp) which would be much lighter and not coated. A friend had one made out of the heavy "rubber" coated stuff they make over=the=road truck trailer covers with. It is a dandy and it sounds from your discription similiar.

--Norm

[NormMessinger]

Well, some are made from Sunberella (sp) which would be much lighter and not coated. A friend had one made out of the heavy "rubber" coated stuff they make over=the=road truck trailer covers with. It is a dandy and it sounds from your discription similiar.

--Norm

[Mr. Know It All]

Framing and custom fit covers, especially for transporting purposes is a science. Some of the nicest canvas covers I've seen here in northern Ohio were made by Ship Shape Marine Canvas Port Clinton,Ohio (419) 797-2254. They might be able to tell you if the material is suitable for the purpose and suggest fastener spacing. Is this for the boat you built Gert? How about posting another pic?
Peace----> Kevin in Ohio

[Mr. Know It All]

Framing and custom fit covers, especially for transporting purposes is a science. Some of the nicest canvas covers I've seen here in northern Ohio were made by Ship Shape Marine Canvas Port Clinton,Ohio (419) 797-2254. They might be able to tell you if the material is suitable for the purpose and suggest fastener spacing. Is this for the boat you built Gert? How about posting another pic?
Peace----> Kevin in Ohio

[Mr. Know It All]

Framing and custom fit covers, especially for transporting purposes is a science. Some of the nicest canvas covers I've seen here in northern Ohio were made by Ship Shape Marine Canvas Port Clinton,Ohio (419) 797-2254. They might be able to tell you if the material is suitable for the purpose and suggest fastener spacing. Is this for the boat you built Gert? How about posting another pic?
Peace----> Kevin in Ohio

[Todd Bradshaw]

Pluses - It should be pretty tough and need little reinforcement at stress and chafe points, which is not the case for the normal cover fabrics like Sunbrella, Top Gun, etc.
- it probably costs less than typical cover fabrics.

Minuses - 500 hours is about one summer of U.V. The regular acrylic and polyester cover fabrics will usually last more than five years.

It's awfully heavy and is bound to be fairly stiff. It probably doesn't stretch or drape very well, which will make getting a nice snug fit tougher.

It doesn't breathe, so it has the potential to trap moisture inside.

I can't find enough info on Vinahide to tell if it's more like truck tarp fabric or upholstery vinyl. Some of these fabrics don't sew very well. The needle holes tend to enlarge with use and leak. They work better with either glued or heat welded seams. I don't know if thats the case here.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Pluses - It should be pretty tough and need little reinforcement at stress and chafe points, which is not the case for the normal cover fabrics like Sunbrella, Top Gun, etc.
- it probably costs less than typical cover fabrics.

Minuses - 500 hours is about one summer of U.V. The regular acrylic and polyester cover fabrics will usually last more than five years.

It's awfully heavy and is bound to be fairly stiff. It probably doesn't stretch or drape very well, which will make getting a nice snug fit tougher.

It doesn't breathe, so it has the potential to trap moisture inside.

I can't find enough info on Vinahide to tell if it's more like truck tarp fabric or upholstery vinyl. Some of these fabrics don't sew very well. The needle holes tend to enlarge with use and leak. They work better with either glued or heat welded seams. I don't know if thats the case here.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Pluses - It should be pretty tough and need little reinforcement at stress and chafe points, which is not the case for the normal cover fabrics like Sunbrella, Top Gun, etc.
- it probably costs less than typical cover fabrics.

Minuses - 500 hours is about one summer of U.V. The regular acrylic and polyester cover fabrics will usually last more than five years.

It's awfully heavy and is bound to be fairly stiff. It probably doesn't stretch or drape very well, which will make getting a nice snug fit tougher.

It doesn't breathe, so it has the potential to trap moisture inside.

I can't find enough info on Vinahide to tell if it's more like truck tarp fabric or upholstery vinyl. Some of these fabrics don't sew very well. The needle holes tend to enlarge with use and leak. They work better with either glued or heat welded seams. I don't know if thats the case here.

[gert]

Todd:
It's an upholstry fabric. What should I be using?
This will be the same cover that protects the boat during winter storage. Sunbrella is permiable to moisture; would I need to cover the cover with a tarp or polly when it rains.(I live in British Columbia; we have a village up the coast here called Ocean Falls due to the amount of rain they get)Rain protection on the coast is a serious concern.

[gert]

Todd:
It's an upholstry fabric. What should I be using?
This will be the same cover that protects the boat during winter storage. Sunbrella is permiable to moisture; would I need to cover the cover with a tarp or polly when it rains.(I live in British Columbia; we have a village up the coast here called Ocean Falls due to the amount of rain they get)Rain protection on the coast is a serious concern.

[gert]

Todd:
It's an upholstry fabric. What should I be using?
This will be the same cover that protects the boat during winter storage. Sunbrella is permiable to moisture; would I need to cover the cover with a tarp or polly when it rains.(I live in British Columbia; we have a village up the coast here called Ocean Falls due to the amount of rain they get)Rain protection on the coast is a serious concern.

[JimJ]

Sunbrella is permiable to moisture

I have a cover for our Hartley TS18 made from "Sunbrella Plus." It appears to have a waterproof coating on one side.

So far the boat drys well and remains dry even during the heavest downpour.

It breaths so lets water vapour through but will not let liquid water through.

[JimJ]

Sunbrella is permiable to moisture

I have a cover for our Hartley TS18 made from "Sunbrella Plus." It appears to have a waterproof coating on one side.

So far the boat drys well and remains dry even during the heavest downpour.

It breaths so lets water vapour through but will not let liquid water through.

[JimJ]

Sunbrella is permiable to moisture

I have a cover for our Hartley TS18 made from "Sunbrella Plus." It appears to have a waterproof coating on one side.

So far the boat drys well and remains dry even during the heavest downpour.

It breaths so lets water vapour through but will not let liquid water through.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Sunbrella Plus has a layer of vinyl bonded to it that's not supposed to breathe as far as I can remember (I'm not at home, so I can't check the specs for a couple of days). Regular sunbrella is as close to waterproof as I've ever needed on a cover. I've never had any of mine leak, even on boats that were outside for years. You should use Anti-Wick thread and do need to reinforce chafe spots carefully, but that's what I'd use.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Sunbrella Plus has a layer of vinyl bonded to it that's not supposed to breathe as far as I can remember (I'm not at home, so I can't check the specs for a couple of days). Regular sunbrella is as close to waterproof as I've ever needed on a cover. I've never had any of mine leak, even on boats that were outside for years. You should use Anti-Wick thread and do need to reinforce chafe spots carefully, but that's what I'd use.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Sunbrella Plus has a layer of vinyl bonded to it that's not supposed to breathe as far as I can remember (I'm not at home, so I can't check the specs for a couple of days). Regular sunbrella is as close to waterproof as I've ever needed on a cover. I've never had any of mine leak, even on boats that were outside for years. You should use Anti-Wick thread and do need to reinforce chafe spots carefully, but that's what I'd use.

[Todd Bradshaw]

OK, for those "Enquiring Minds" that want to know, I looked up Sunbrella Plus. It isn't vinyl laminated or coated, it's polyurethane coated - like a nylon backpack. It's listed as "waterproof" and no mention is made of breathability. There are some breathable polyurethane coatings (they're baked until tiny pores open-up in the coating - one of the methods of generating a Gore-Tex-like, waterproof/breathable fabric without using a Teflon laminate - brands like Ultrex and several of the Patagonia private labeled Storm coatings are examples). In this case though, if they were going to the extra trouble and expense to use one of these, they would be trying to get their investment back by advertising it as such, so I would presume that their polyurethane coating is the normal, non-breathable type.

"Waterproof" is generally a claim that needs to be backed-up by resistance to water sprayed at the fabric under pressure, sometimes quite a bit of pressure. It doesn't always have much to do with rain or what goes on in the real world. I have taken many a bath in expensive raingear that was supposed to be waterproof and sometimes been quite surprised, comfortable and bone dry in stuff that was only supposed to be water repellent.

In the case of boat cover fabric, the more water you can keep out of the boat, the better - but, since boats are wet places in general, it is just as important to let water out as it is to prevent water from coming in. I would tend to be more leery of a "waterproof" cover that didn't breathe, than I would of a "highly water repellent" one that might leak a little water into the boat on Monday, but would let it evaporate out on Tuesday - before stuff started to get green and mildew on Wednesday and Thursday.

With coated fabric, it's going to be important to build-in some ventilation, since you can't just let moisture leave by going through the cloth itself. This can be done with small, hooded vents (you can close the actual hole in the cover with mosquito netting to keep bugs out and to keep the hole's shape from distorting under a load if desired) or with gizmos like Nicro solar vents. I think they still make a fabric mounting ring for them and the day/night vents with a solar-charging battery work quite well (if you're willing to drop $100 for one).

With regular, breathable Sunbrella, this extra mechanical ventillation is not usually needed. Leakage is minimal for liquid water and the spaces between the yarns are massive in proportion to those little molecules of water vapor trying to escape (I know about as much about molecules as I do about brain surgery, but you get my drift). The fabric should be re-treated with a fluorocarbon water repellent like 303 Fabric Guard every season or two in areas with a lot of rain. Don't use silicone-based sprays as they aren't compatible with what comes on the cloth from the factory and can make the repellency spotty. Even the coated fabric will benefit from being re-treated since the first rule of coatings is that any coating will perform better if the amount of water exposure is limited right at the surface, before it even gets down to the coating. The outer, nylon layer of all the fancy raingear fabrics (Gore-Tex, Ultrex, etc.) are treated with the same type of stuff for just that reason.

The weaknesses with any form of Sunbrella are chafe and the fact that it softens-up a lot with age. Highway speeds are really hard on covers. They need to fit tight with no flapping. Places where they go over sharp edges, corners or where support poles etc. are located need internal chafe protection. This is sometimes done with another layer of Sunbrella, though other, more abrasion resistant fabrics like polyester (fairly heavy Dacron sail cloth works well) or truck-tarp-type vinyl-coated nylon are usually better. It's also a good idea to back-up grommets, lifting rings and other high-stress areas with small patches of something strong and tightly woven. Otherwise, as the Sunbrella softens with age, they tend to pull out.

On small boat covers, I generally cut them a bit loose on top and shoot for a single cover that will function both for off-season storage or trailering and with the mast up, on the water. I'll add reinforced patch near the center where a D-ring can be webbed onto the outside so that the cover can be peaked-up with a halyard or if the mast is down, with a single, short pole from inside which presses up against the same reinforcing patch. It also makes getting a good fit easier, since instead of trying for a drum-tight fit, you can take up the slack and bias stretch with the halyard or pole and adjust it as the fabric ages and softens. Having the mast up means more work, since you need to sew-in a small mast boot, split the cover down one side of the boot and over to the nearest edge with a covered zipper but it's sometimes nice to be able to cover the boat without having to unrig everything and drop the mast.

Anyhow, that's the scoop on Sunbrella. It might be worth calling a couple of local boat cover builders and asking which version works best in your area, but given a choice, I'd probably go with the normal, uncoated version unless somebody who knows told me that it doesn't work there. It's also cheaper than Sunbrella Plus.

[ 07-15-2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

OK, for those "Enquiring Minds" that want to know, I looked up Sunbrella Plus. It isn't vinyl laminated or coated, it's polyurethane coated - like a nylon backpack. It's listed as "waterproof" and no mention is made of breathability. There are some breathable polyurethane coatings (they're baked until tiny pores open-up in the coating - one of the methods of generating a Gore-Tex-like, waterproof/breathable fabric without using a Teflon laminate - brands like Ultrex and several of the Patagonia private labeled Storm coatings are examples). In this case though, if they were going to the extra trouble and expense to use one of these, they would be trying to get their investment back by advertising it as such, so I would presume that their polyurethane coating is the normal, non-breathable type.

"Waterproof" is generally a claim that needs to be backed-up by resistance to water sprayed at the fabric under pressure, sometimes quite a bit of pressure. It doesn't always have much to do with rain or what goes on in the real world. I have taken many a bath in expensive raingear that was supposed to be waterproof and sometimes been quite surprised, comfortable and bone dry in stuff that was only supposed to be water repellent.

In the case of boat cover fabric, the more water you can keep out of the boat, the better - but, since boats are wet places in general, it is just as important to let water out as it is to prevent water from coming in. I would tend to be more leery of a "waterproof" cover that didn't breathe, than I would of a "highly water repellent" one that might leak a little water into the boat on Monday, but would let it evaporate out on Tuesday - before stuff started to get green and mildew on Wednesday and Thursday.

With coated fabric, it's going to be important to build-in some ventilation, since you can't just let moisture leave by going through the cloth itself. This can be done with small, hooded vents (you can close the actual hole in the cover with mosquito netting to keep bugs out and to keep the hole's shape from distorting under a load if desired) or with gizmos like Nicro solar vents. I think they still make a fabric mounting ring for them and the day/night vents with a solar-charging battery work quite well (if you're willing to drop $100 for one).

With regular, breathable Sunbrella, this extra mechanical ventillation is not usually needed. Leakage is minimal for liquid water and the spaces between the yarns are massive in proportion to those little molecules of water vapor trying to escape (I know about as much about molecules as I do about brain surgery, but you get my drift). The fabric should be re-treated with a fluorocarbon water repellent like 303 Fabric Guard every season or two in areas with a lot of rain. Don't use silicone-based sprays as they aren't compatible with what comes on the cloth from the factory and can make the repellency spotty. Even the coated fabric will benefit from being re-treated since the first rule of coatings is that any coating will perform better if the amount of water exposure is limited right at the surface, before it even gets down to the coating. The outer, nylon layer of all the fancy raingear fabrics (Gore-Tex, Ultrex, etc.) are treated with the same type of stuff for just that reason.

The weaknesses with any form of Sunbrella are chafe and the fact that it softens-up a lot with age. Highway speeds are really hard on covers. They need to fit tight with no flapping. Places where they go over sharp edges, corners or where support poles etc. are located need internal chafe protection. This is sometimes done with another layer of Sunbrella, though other, more abrasion resistant fabrics like polyester (fairly heavy Dacron sail cloth works well) or truck-tarp-type vinyl-coated nylon are usually better. It's also a good idea to back-up grommets, lifting rings and other high-stress areas with small patches of something strong and tightly woven. Otherwise, as the Sunbrella softens with age, they tend to pull out.

On small boat covers, I generally cut them a bit loose on top and shoot for a single cover that will function both for off-season storage or trailering and with the mast up, on the water. I'll add reinforced patch near the center where a D-ring can be webbed onto the outside so that the cover can be peaked-up with a halyard or if the mast is down, with a single, short pole from inside which presses up against the same reinforcing patch. It also makes getting a good fit easier, since instead of trying for a drum-tight fit, you can take up the slack and bias stretch with the halyard or pole and adjust it as the fabric ages and softens. Having the mast up means more work, since you need to sew-in a small mast boot, split the cover down one side of the boot and over to the nearest edge with a covered zipper but it's sometimes nice to be able to cover the boat without having to unrig everything and drop the mast.

Anyhow, that's the scoop on Sunbrella. It might be worth calling a couple of local boat cover builders and asking which version works best in your area, but given a choice, I'd probably go with the normal, uncoated version unless somebody who knows told me that it doesn't work there. It's also cheaper than Sunbrella Plus.

[ 07-15-2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

OK, for those "Enquiring Minds" that want to know, I looked up Sunbrella Plus. It isn't vinyl laminated or coated, it's polyurethane coated - like a nylon backpack. It's listed as "waterproof" and no mention is made of breathability. There are some breathable polyurethane coatings (they're baked until tiny pores open-up in the coating - one of the methods of generating a Gore-Tex-like, waterproof/breathable fabric without using a Teflon laminate - brands like Ultrex and several of the Patagonia private labeled Storm coatings are examples). In this case though, if they were going to the extra trouble and expense to use one of these, they would be trying to get their investment back by advertising it as such, so I would presume that their polyurethane coating is the normal, non-breathable type.

"Waterproof" is generally a claim that needs to be backed-up by resistance to water sprayed at the fabric under pressure, sometimes quite a bit of pressure. It doesn't always have much to do with rain or what goes on in the real world. I have taken many a bath in expensive raingear that was supposed to be waterproof and sometimes been quite surprised, comfortable and bone dry in stuff that was only supposed to be water repellent.

In the case of boat cover fabric, the more water you can keep out of the boat, the better - but, since boats are wet places in general, it is just as important to let water out as it is to prevent water from coming in. I would tend to be more leery of a "waterproof" cover that didn't breathe, than I would of a "highly water repellent" one that might leak a little water into the boat on Monday, but would let it evaporate out on Tuesday - before stuff started to get green and mildew on Wednesday and Thursday.

With coated fabric, it's going to be important to build-in some ventilation, since you can't just let moisture leave by going through the cloth itself. This can be done with small, hooded vents (you can close the actual hole in the cover with mosquito netting to keep bugs out and to keep the hole's shape from distorting under a load if desired) or with gizmos like Nicro solar vents. I think they still make a fabric mounting ring for them and the day/night vents with a solar-charging battery work quite well (if you're willing to drop $100 for one).

With regular, breathable Sunbrella, this extra mechanical ventillation is not usually needed. Leakage is minimal for liquid water and the spaces between the yarns are massive in proportion to those little molecules of water vapor trying to escape (I know about as much about molecules as I do about brain surgery, but you get my drift). The fabric should be re-treated with a fluorocarbon water repellent like 303 Fabric Guard every season or two in areas with a lot of rain. Don't use silicone-based sprays as they aren't compatible with what comes on the cloth from the factory and can make the repellency spotty. Even the coated fabric will benefit from being re-treated since the first rule of coatings is that any coating will perform better if the amount of water exposure is limited right at the surface, before it even gets down to the coating. The outer, nylon layer of all the fancy raingear fabrics (Gore-Tex, Ultrex, etc.) are treated with the same type of stuff for just that reason.

The weaknesses with any form of Sunbrella are chafe and the fact that it softens-up a lot with age. Highway speeds are really hard on covers. They need to fit tight with no flapping. Places where they go over sharp edges, corners or where support poles etc. are located need internal chafe protection. This is sometimes done with another layer of Sunbrella, though other, more abrasion resistant fabrics like polyester (fairly heavy Dacron sail cloth works well) or truck-tarp-type vinyl-coated nylon are usually better. It's also a good idea to back-up grommets, lifting rings and other high-stress areas with small patches of something strong and tightly woven. Otherwise, as the Sunbrella softens with age, they tend to pull out.

On small boat covers, I generally cut them a bit loose on top and shoot for a single cover that will function both for off-season storage or trailering and with the mast up, on the water. I'll add reinforced patch near the center where a D-ring can be webbed onto the outside so that the cover can be peaked-up with a halyard or if the mast is down, with a single, short pole from inside which presses up against the same reinforcing patch. It also makes getting a good fit easier, since instead of trying for a drum-tight fit, you can take up the slack and bias stretch with the halyard or pole and adjust it as the fabric ages and softens. Having the mast up means more work, since you need to sew-in a small mast boot, split the cover down one side of the boot and over to the nearest edge with a covered zipper but it's sometimes nice to be able to cover the boat without having to unrig everything and drop the mast.

Anyhow, that's the scoop on Sunbrella. It might be worth calling a couple of local boat cover builders and asking which version works best in your area, but given a choice, I'd probably go with the normal, uncoated version unless somebody who knows told me that it doesn't work there. It's also cheaper than Sunbrella Plus.

[ 07-15-2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[gert]

Thx Todd. We are going with the regular Sunbrella. As for rain on Monday and evavoration on Tuesday; the problem around here is the Monday is in November and the Tuesday is in March.

[gert]

Thx Todd. We are going with the regular Sunbrella. As for rain on Monday and evavoration on Tuesday; the problem around here is the Monday is in November and the Tuesday is in March.

[gert]

Thx Todd. We are going with the regular Sunbrella. As for rain on Monday and evavoration on Tuesday; the problem around here is the Monday is in November and the Tuesday is in March.

[Todd Bradshaw]

In that case, look on the bright side - the cover may get a little green, but some breathability is better than no breathability and at least you'll avoid a lot of U.V. damage. The thing that eventually kills even the mighty Sunbrella is U.V.

[Todd Bradshaw]

In that case, look on the bright side - the cover may get a little green, but some breathability is better than no breathability and at least you'll avoid a lot of U.V. damage. The thing that eventually kills even the mighty Sunbrella is U.V.

[Todd Bradshaw]

In that case, look on the bright side - the cover may get a little green, but some breathability is better than no breathability and at least you'll avoid a lot of U.V. damage. The thing that eventually kills even the mighty Sunbrella is U.V.