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Thread: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

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    Default Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Another new design the Creizic a sail and oar boat



    Note oar storage for those long oars



    Note stitch and tape, lightweight simple build jig.


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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    I think that this design looks the duck's nut's! I've been corresponding with Francois re this, he's working on it at the moment and I believe Icarai are making the prototype. Good to see that they're making progress. In the original design proposal the forward thwart was removable, I hope he retains that idea in the final version. I also asked him if it would take a small outboard and he replied that while not particularly designed for that, it would, so that ticks all the boxes for me....

    Brian where did you get the pictures from, they're more up to date than the ones I have.

    Cheers,

    Adrian
    Last edited by Adrian Valley; 12-05-2013 at 07:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Reminds me of the Selway-Fisher Stornoway. Vivier has a real flair for beautiful designs.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Reminds me more of a fuller version of Phoenix 111, yup he can certainly draw a good boat!

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Looks quite promising. Got any specs? LOA, LWL, beam, displacement, etc?

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Some information here James, if you can read French:

    Longueur de coque 4.6m
    Longueur flottaison 4.34
    Largeur hors bordé 1.6m
    Largeur flottaison 1.32m
    Tirant d'eau dérive haute 0.16m
    Tirant d'eau dérive basse 0.89m
    Creux sous sole 0.55m
    Déplacement eau de mer 400kg
    Coefficient prismatique 0.575
    Espacement des lignes d'eau 50/100 mm
    Espacement des longitudinales 150mm
    Espacement des couples 300mm

    This stuff and more including the lines is in the original design proposal in Chasse-marree:
    http://www.chasse-maree.com/images/s...er/CREIZIC.pdf

    James, you will notice that it started as a Lug Yawl.........

    Cheers,

    Adrian
    Last edited by Adrian Valley; 12-06-2013 at 02:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    From a posting on Francois Vivier's Facebook page

    https://www.facebook.com/francois.vi...ref=ts&fref=ts

    Brian

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Looks groovy. I was also reminded a bit of Ross Lillistone's Phoenix III, probably the general layout of the interior and the rig more than anything else.

    Hard to tell from a quick look, but it seems the mast might not store inside the boat if that's an issue for anyone. If not, I'd be curious to know if it can be dropped and set inside the cockpit in such a way that you can still row from the forward station.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 12-06-2013 at 07:48 AM.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Nice!

    But for boats with balanced lugs it can be better to dont have a foredeck since stowing the sail-boom bundle is easyer
    Ragnar B.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    If you click on the chasse-mare link above one of the drawings shows the mast stowed to the side when rowing and the yawl rig version.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 12-06-2013 at 06:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Valley View Post
    Reminds me more of a fuller version of Phoenix 111 [sic], yup he can certainly draw a good boat!
    If Lillistone's glued-lap Phoenix III and the stitch-and-glue First Mate had a daughter, she would look like the Vivier Creizig. I wonder if one could avoid having to tape each and every one of those chines. Could one spot weld with bog, pull the stitches, add nice strong fillets reinforced with MGF or lighter cotton fibers, and then just glass her inside and out?
    Last edited by capefox; 12-06-2013 at 10:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by capefox View Post
    If Lillistone's glued-lap Phoenix III and the stitch-and-glue First Mate had a daughter, she would look like the Vivier Creizig. I wonder if one could avoid having to tape each and every one of those chines. Could one spot weld with bog, pull the stitches, add nice strong fillets reinforced with MGF or lighter cotton fibers, and then just glass her inside and out?
    I was thinking along the same lines. Taping that many seems would not be an enjoyable experience. Seems it would be a lot easier your way.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    I want to dig around and see how people built the Stornoway - a multi-chine design with a lot of panels.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    This is giving me all sorts of ideas of what to do with the old hot molded I-14 hull in the rafters of my wood shed. Lines from an Uffa Fox design. Dimensions are similar.

    Those thole pins and their blocks (pardon me for not knowing their proper name) will be a literal pain in the ass when hiking out. Flush mounted sockets and taller than normal locks are the way to go.

    I like the high aspect standing lug rig. Still not sure about whether to go with a mizzen (or jigger, as my father used to call it) or not.

    Also needs flotation on either side amidships. As drawn she will be very unstable when flooded, as in after a capsize. It's one thing to have to drop the sail after a capsize, it's a real pain to have to unstep the mast.

    Allan
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Capefox,

    That is the way that CLC build their Sassafrass Canoes, except they use lapstitch construction at the joints.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Anyone know what happened with this new design. No sign of it on Vivier's website?

    Brian

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    I posted on Mr Vivier's Facebook page if there was any news and the news is good. The first boat will be launched soon.

    Brian

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg








    Interior




    Mast raising arrangement



    http://www.francois.vivier.info/albu...zic/index.html

    Ed

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Apparently this was a design project for a contest in France. Not sure how he did.

    But it is a very nice boat, optimized for two. Love the simplicity of the mast partner...the centerboard trunk with notches for bungee...adjustable foot rest, all cool features.
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Pretty boat,but looks like it needs another person forward to keep the bow in the water.I can't say the bungee excites me-it seems clumsy and could be replaced by one of these;



    Cheap,easy to adjust.lightweight and apparently unknown in much of the world.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    He's sat too far back, as a lot of people do. He needs to be positioned over the theoretical longitudinal centre of buoyancy, which for a sail and oar boat is naturally further forward than say a planing type. The narrow WL and wetted area and low weight makes sail and oar boats less tolerant of poor position. Its a first launch pictures session so it doesn't matter, but fundamentally more broadly in general there is no point carefully designing then building a boat to a perfect theory and then distorting the waterlines, centre of buoyancy position or ability to turn etc by sitting in the wrong place at the wrong speed and distorting all the good work.

    On a sail and oar boat its quite significant whether its two man or one man as to thwart positions thus, so that weight is correctly distributed with respect to the lcb and might mean adjustable thwart position if its to cover both. One person sat to far forward on a two man boat will find the skeg less submersed and it won't track etc for example without supplementary trim ballast or a more central thwart. All has to to be factored in by the designers as to its projected specific user(s) and still make it ergonomically work with regard to oarlock beams, thwart heights, sail and tiller controls etc.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 10-02-2014 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    On creizic, its noticeable if you look inside that structurally she has no internal keelson. I don't know how much outer keel is stuck on, but apart from materials cost this also would save time with that ply plank bottom only. No internal floors or floorboards, clearly structurally its not needed. Vivier knows his structural engineering more than anyone. Bethwaite found a chined hull faster than a lapped one. She would be a good one for commercial building in grp with no laps maybe: though likely heavier and less stiff.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Absolutely LOVE the adjustable foot rests mounted on the CB case! I wonder what the notches in the CB case top are for? To loosely hold the CB in various positions, I guess -- never seen anything like it.


    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Pretty boat,but looks like it needs another person forward to keep the bow in the water.I can't say the bungee excites me-it seems clumsy and could be replaced by one of these;



    Cheap,easy to adjust.lightweight and apparently unknown in much of the world.
    Certainly unknown in this one horse New Hampshire hill town. Would you care to explain to us ignorant colonials how this device works (we can see that it's a bit of heater hose, two woodscrews and and a bit of metal plate).

    Allan
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Pretty boat,but looks like it needs another person forward to keep the bow in the water.I can't say the bungee excites me-it seems clumsy and could be replaced by one of these;



    Cheap,easy to adjust.lightweight and apparently unknown in much of the world.
    Looks pretty much like a hack job! I know how its used to hold the CB inside the case...the hose presses inside the trunk against the sides with friction. I'll take the bungee.
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Absolutely LOVE the adjustable foot rests mounted on the CB case! I wonder what the notches in the CB case top are for? To loosely hold the CB in various positions, I guess -- never seen anything like it.


    I think you are right about the notches. The corners could use a round-over before they splinter off. My best guess on the "internal" notch is that is captures the CB pin.

    What's up with the back-to-back knots on the oars?
    Steve

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Those sticks with the spike knots in the top of that picture are oar shafts?!? <horrified shock!>

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post










    Ed
    Yes
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Magnificent

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Just about every centreboard dinghy in the UK has the same centreboard brake fitted. Using a long screwdriver, one simply tightens the screws slightly to increase the brake force or ease the screws to make it looser. Although it might seems a bit basic and crude, it must be a case of simple works and keeps working and no one has come up with a better solution for such little cost.

    just about every dinghy chandler sells them.
    http://www.sailboats.co.uk/centreboard-brake

    Easy to make using a bit of brass keel strip with two holes drilled, two screws and a short length of car radiator hose. Quite fun seeing the reaction at the local car parts shop when you request 3" of the correct width radiator hose!

    The pictures with the helm sat too far back did my head in. There is even a tiller extension already fitted. Probably a very fist sail with the new owner very excited just to be out in her.

    The he oars look interesting. Very long narrow blade. http://www.francois.vivier.info/albu...2014-08-21.JPG See how nicely she is sitting on her lines when the weight is in the correct place.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 10-03-2014 at 01:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Very well executed as per usual. Glad to see some real knots in some of that timber.Owner looks happy.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg



    We had some oars similar to this on the Teifi skiff we had. They were very light, relatively narrow (easy) square section looms and the blade was a laminated thin plywood in a spoon blade shape. Maybe crude compared to a more typical affair, but they looked very easy to make and they were very good in practice. I think in the sections oars are, hollow square looms might be easier to fabricate too if going the full monty. Uses material efficiently like the rest of the boat and the blade section I thought was easily replaced or changed for a different size if you wanted to change the blade gearing. They like the pins through a hole in Brittany so the oars can be left in place or don't pop out if it rolls on the pull - plenty of inshore lobstering and Atlantic swell. Bare boat must be very light and must be very quick to build if you had finger joint cnc panels to just stitch n tape.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 10-03-2014 at 06:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post


    We had some oars similar to this on the Teifi skiff we had. They were very light, relatively narrow (easy) square section looms and the blade was a laminated thin plywood in a spoon blade shape. Maybe crude compared to a more typical affair, but they looked very easy to make and they were very good in practice. I think in the sections oars are, hollow square looms might be easier to fabricate too if going the full monty. Uses material efficiently like the rest of the boat and the blade section I thought was easily replaced or changed for a different size if you wanted to change the blade gearing. They like the pins through a hole in Brittany so the oars can be left in place or don't pop out if it rolls on the pull - plenty of inshore lobstering and Atlantic swell. Bare boat must be very light and must be very quick to build if you had finger joint cnc panels to just stitch n tape.
    Sorta the Greenland Kayak Paddle of the Sail & Oar world, eh? Interesting.

    I'm still unclear on how the rubber-baby-centerboard-brake thingie works, however. How do you remove it if the CB gets jammed with gravel or weeds?
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Just a comment about the lightweight idea. My Oughtred Whilly Tern, at the same length, is 75kg for the hull with CB and fittings. The rig, rudder and bits MIGHT be 35kg, but I doubt it. So what is lightweight about this design?... Not to run it down, I really admire FV's work. just... It might be a bit lighter than some of his other designs, as they are usually very robustly built.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton B Chase View Post
    Looks pretty much like a hack job! I know how its used to hold the CB inside the case...the hose presses inside the trunk against the sides with friction. I'll take the bungee.
    I might be the only the only person wondering why you would make such a choice and would welcome a more extensive explanation.As Brian explains they are pretty much ubiquitous here and they work well.Certainly up to the sort of speed that this boat is doing http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/pho...yandy70652.jpg .

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Andrew the Whilly boat is a brilliant but 'smaller' boat: the LWL, WL beam, sail area and projected designed displacement puts it in the same category as Arctic Tern and Walkabout which have very similar numbers.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ar-Boats/page2

    Creizic's construction without needing so much centreline structure, floors and boards etc means she is the same weight as an AT but with full sheer level side decks. These will greatly reduce down flooding and stiffen the oarlocks and the boat against twisting. Arguably the construction method is lighter.

    The lack of 'ends' compared to say AT will further reduce parasitic weight and windage in row mode and permits building it in a shorter build space. Creizic transom could also allow a normal tiller with an offset mizzen arrangement. Creizic will also have less inverted stability to assist recovery, compared to a longer LOA boat on the same LWL with the same deck arrangement.

    An AT owner can point to greater forward flare (dryness), motion comfort from balanced above WL buoyancy, WL extention as it heals (though the apparent displacement wave will also elongate as creizic's transom immerses with heal) and LOD spar storage length, that the greater total LOA permits.

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 10-03-2014 at 04:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    From another Vivier, an Ilur in Ireland.

    http://ilur.tumblr.com/image/72871504659

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Is that gentleman driving, perchance you, John?
    No-I haven't set foot in an Enterprise in years.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    When I open the pdf link Ed posted earlier using my IPad

    http://www.chasse-maree.com/images/s...er/CREIZIC.pdf

    it opens all distorted. Squashed in the horizontal plane and stretched in the vertical. The lines drawing looks terrible.

    does it open correctly on other platforms?

    i was trying to compare the lines drawing with Clint's CIY 19' footer. CIY's lines are very sweet, very sail and oar, low wetted surface. Just cannot see the lines correctly on Creizic.

    Brian

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Taking a stab at translating it...

    Longueur de coque 4.60 m (Overall length)
    Longueur flottaison 4.34 m (waterline length)
    Largeur hors bordé 1.60 m (Beam)
    Largeur flottaison 1.32 m (Beam at waterline)
    Tirant d'eau dérive haute 0.16 m (draft with centerboard up)
    Tirant d'eau dérive basse 0.89 m (draft with centerboard down)
    Creux sous sole 0.55 m (depth from sheer to keel?)
    Déplacement eau de mer 400 kg (displacement, seawater)
    Coefficient prismatique 0.575 (prismatic coefficient)
    Espacement des lignes d'eau 50/100 mm (waterline spacing)
    Espacement des longitudinales 150 mm (spacing of longitudinals)
    Espacement des couples 300 mm (station spacing)

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg


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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Im convinced good photos sell boats......

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    I hope that the thole pins on the boat can easily be taken out of their sockets when sailing: they get in the way of hiking and may cause injuries when sailing, they may damage your sail when lowering it into the boat and the pins may get caught under a jetty whereby the forces will be at one pinpoint.

    Like the boat a lot.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    http://www.vivierboats.com/en/creizic-for-sale/

    stitch an tape





    4.60 long
    108kg hull weight
    buid plans this year, contact FV, who describes her as lighter than his earlier designs and very easy to build.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-06-2017 at 02:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg



    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 01-06-2017 at 12:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    What is up with those oar locks? Just a pin and a hole to wallow in?
    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have driven a 6.5l Dodge with diesel Cummins and it was glorious....

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by wsgilliam View Post
    What is up with those oar locks? Just a pin and a hole to wallow in?
    North Breton tradition. Rocky coastline, large tidal flow and headlands creating inshore chop for working shellfisherman. Sea oarlocks are by tradition here captive to prevent the oars lifting out of the oarlock as the boat heals in waves. The pin is cheap and easily procured, replaced and even floats if wood. Traditionally you put a round pin into a square hole so if it breaks you can still pull it out. Using the hardwood pads attached to the oar shaft reduces wear compared to softwood and leathers/ is replaceable. The twin holes allows you to vary the inboard to outboard ratio for loaded and unloaded rowing gearing, and also to adjust to the fore and aft inter oarlock half beams.

    With a weighted inboard end, when tending crab pots the coukd just let go of the oars and they stay in the boat ready for action. They dont slip in the oarlock like a modern one can.

    The Portland Lerret on the other side of the Channel working a similar tidal eddy off Weymouth used the same system.

    The breton fishermen developed simple but sophisticated boat systems where they could.

    Open oarlocks as we now use are a flat water racing oarlock, not traditionally used on sea boats. The obsession with bronze oarlocks is also misplaced. The iron age followed the bronze age for good reason. Bronze oarlocks are prone to snapping if imperfectly cast. Its a durable but quite weak material in small small boat scantlings.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 01-06-2017 at 02:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg


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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post

    Open oarlocks as we now use are a flat water racing oarlock, not traditionally used on sea boats. The obsession with bronze oarlocks is also misplaced. The iron age followed the bronze age for good reason. Bronze oarlocks are prone to snapping if imperfectly cast. Its a durable but quite weak material in small small boat scantlings.
    On a similar theme,some while ago we had a local small boat builder whose literature stated "no castings are used on our boats".A good casting may have it's place but how many of us can identify a good one?

  50. #50
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Francois Vivier Creizic, sail and oar 15' lightweight construction 110kg

    That is excellent information, thank you for posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    North Breton tradition. Rocky coastline, large tidal flow and headlands creating inshore chop for working shellfisherman. Sea oarlocks are by tradition here captive to prevent the oars lifting out of the oarlock as the boat heals in waves. The pin is cheap and easily procured, replaced and even floats if wood. Traditionally you put a round pin into a square hole so if it breaks you can still pull it out. Using the hardwood pads attached to the oar shaft reduces wear compared to softwood and leathers/ is replaceable. The twin holes allows you to vary the inboard to outboard ratio for loaded and unloaded rowing gearing, and also to adjust to the fore and aft inter oarlock half beams.

    With a weighted inboard end, when tending crab pots the coukd just let go of the oars and they stay in the boat ready for action. They dont slip in the oarlock like a modern one can.

    The Portland Lerret on the other side of the Channel working a similar tidal eddy off Weymouth used the same system.

    The breton fishermen developed simple but sophisticated boat systems where they could.

    Open oarlocks as we now use are a flat water racing oarlock, not traditionally used on sea boats. The obsession with bronze oarlocks is also misplaced. The iron age followed the bronze age for good reason. Bronze oarlocks are prone to snapping if imperfectly cast. Its a durable but quite weak material in small small boat scantlings.
    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have driven a 6.5l Dodge with diesel Cummins and it was glorious....

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