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Thread: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

  1. #1
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    Default New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    I'm about 2 months into this thing. I'm hesitant to throw this one out with all the current Sooty "experts" out there, but perhaps something can be gleaned from my struggling rendition. I've plan set #59 from the master himself, Iain Oughtred. He has been fantastic in answering some key questions I've had. He even sent signed prints of the lines on archival paper which I intend to frame. I'm currently 1/3 planked and have completed the major spars in birdsmouth fashion. While I doubt I'll keep a running thread here, I do feel some responsibility to pay back some for all the knowledge I've gained from this forum. What a resource! Many thanks!
    Eddie

    Progress here:
    http://lingeringlunacy.blogspot.com
    Last edited by EeBe4; 11-25-2013 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.



    So, here she is to date.

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Looks good. No such thing as too many Sooty Terns!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Thanks Rich. Wish I had seen your Hvalsoe thread before. I'll follow now. Very nice work there. I'm using 8mm okoume also and have thought about staining and varnishing the shear plank. Your stain job looks good. Happy with it? I may try some stain on some scrap ply. Your pulling boat may have to be a "next" build.
    Last edited by EeBe4; 03-17-2014 at 10:40 AM. Reason: wrong ply noted.

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Sail and Oar™ Jih(cough cough... hack hack)... too much screaming...


    Always great to see another non-motorized recreational boat being put together. Sail and Oar is taking over the world!

    Please do keep sharing your progress. Each builder brings something for the collective good. You may have a different perspective on things!
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    At least 59 plans so far and counting, huh? Wowzers!

    I kinda hope that you were just being dyslexic when you said 6mm and that you really meant 9mm. Six mil seems awfully undersized for a boat of this displacement, especially for your garboards and broads that are going to take the brunt of the battle against beaches and trailer bunks. Please tell me you're using the full recommended scantlings instead of only 66% of them.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    59 is impressive. I have plan number 3. I too am building one and almost planked up but I have not started a thread. Perhaps I will later. I actually started before Vern but I'm taking my time. Hoping to finish the hull this Winter. Looks like your off to an excellent start! Good job.

    Are you gluing the scarfs on the bench or on the boat? I glued the first two on the bench then found scarfing on the boat much easier and just as accurate. I'm using 1/4 plywood wrapped in wax paper for the scarf sandwich. The next two pairs of planks will get tricky on the ends. I recommend shaping with a 1/8 inch margin of error and trimming later. It's a lot easier than adding 1/8 inch.

    Neil

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    When I talked to Iain about a J2 some years ago, he said 6mm Occume was OK, but light. His slightly shorter prototype J2 was 6mm. I think he thought 7-8mm was ideal, but that's only available from bruynzeel I think. Thought 6mm mahogany good. I think with stiffening bulkheads, triangulating plywood floors, side tank longitudinals and half support bulkhead engineering, the unsupported panel stiffness would be the same, provided your using a stiff backbone etc. Such a boat would have the same weight as the open type yet be more seaworthy and better engineered. Its multistrake which makes the land angle shallower giving more width for thinner planking to manage, though you would have to be careful falling about inside the boat and with feet too if the overlaps were quite narrow. A lighter boat will be faster under oar, semi plane quicker and accelerate in light air puffs earlier. These do tend to need ballast though under sail in stronger conditions, but for light air sailing regions, that may be less required. Also lighter to pull around. I'd have some well softened trailer bunks/ straps for sure to help and take it easy trailering if I'd gone race winning light all the way through. Make sure my suspension was really light rated etc. Iain draws thin floorboards, so that when tightened they bend down and not the bottom strakes up. You may need to keep your boom foot boards quite thin still for this reason. For a racer, I'd want everything flexing a bit, until it was finished where everything starts to reinforce each other. The old boats were flexible, but in modern construction typically stiffness is a vertue with rig control, though with unstayed rigs thats maybe slightly less important: the main halyard can be isolated off the boat to the mast base. Still if the boat is moving, it may fatigue, though wood is especially good in that regard. Glassing the garboards could be considered to add stiffness and strength, but again maybe not needed especially if you were landing on sand for example. Crosswise stiffness can be improved with uni direction carbon in an X pattern accross the mast strep and centreboard area like 49er's have in the laminate. Same reinforcement at the shroud bases if your going stayed gunter. With a light hull, I'd well fillet around the floor supports and also structurally make sure around the mast step was well constructed to distribute loads accross a wide area. Also a stiff deck can be used to stiffen a hull as it will stop the V shaped sides moving in and out so much. Fast powerboats go this route. I'd also go easy if your ever standing on the centreboard as loading will go through the keel/keelson partly through the attached planking etc. The drier ride given by laps, would be slightly reduced going 9 to 6mm but the overhangs make them dry boats anyhow. The laps also reduce roll tacking speed, so a thinner material would roll slightly quicker side to side in that situation. Iain puts an extra reef's worth of sail on the bottom of the mainsail foot too, for when its about the winning, though for people in a light air region that might be worth it too. Should be a fast boat though in 6, looking at your pic it looks like 5 ply so assume it is.

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 11-13-2013 at 06:01 AM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    At least 59 plans so far and counting, huh? Wowzers!
    It's a few more than that even. I received #62 in August.

    Eddie, great to see you've started a thread. I've been enjoying following your blog.

    Dave
    Sooty Tern Build Thread: Another Tern in the Works!
    Sooty Tern Blog: http://xflow7.wordpress.com

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    More paragraph breaks please, Ed. It's kinda hard to read.

    A J2 is quite a bit smaller than an ST, and 6mm bruynzeel is not the same thing as 6mm occume. Having to "be careful about falling about inside the boat with feet" sounds like a disastrously bad long-term strategy unless you're sailing accompanied by a chase boat at all times.

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    I seem to be missing something.

    When I look at list of Ian Outred's plans I don't see a Sooty Tern http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/m...ery.php?KID=34

    I get the impression it's a variant of the Arctic Tern but I'm not sure. With so many discussions mentioning the ST perhaps someone could clarify which design it is. Thanks.

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Ben, thanks. I'm enjoying it.
    James & Ed, no typo. Iain talked me into 8mm actually. We've sand and/or mud on the Chesapeake. No rocks, though I may venture toward Maine at some point. I'll try to avoid the rocks. I have determined to lay up a couple layers of glass on the garboards. I may also add a floor and beef them up from 3/4" to 1". I will push, pull, and even romp on the boat as it comes along to see where it flexes. In any event, I'm too far down the road now. It will be fine. I do value your comments. Thx-
    Neil, the ladder tracing method leaves about 1/16" if I cut to the pencil line. I've a Bosch jig saw that is light years beyond my old Black & Decker. Control is real good (as long as I keep my eye on the ball). No faults yet. I cut both sides at the same time and glue the whole plank together. I know Iain recommends on the boat and several do that, but I've had no problems with the 4 I've done thus far.have you started? Would be neat to compare notes as we went along.
    Dave, have you started yet?
    Last edited by EeBe4; 03-23-2014 at 08:08 PM.

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Quote Originally Posted by EeBe4 View Post
    Iain talked me into 6mm actually.
    Hmmm. . .curious! I wonder why? After all, I've been using a full 100lbs of added ballast ever since early on. The "weight savings" of six mil would be irrelevant if you end up ballasting her back down to DWL anyways. Did he explain his reasoning? I'll have to write him about it. I suppose it matters less if you are planning on unloaded daysailing rather than serious cruising, but still, a mere 1/4 inch planking doesn't seem as robust as I'd prefer in a nearly 20-foot long boat.

    Definitely glass both garboards and broads and add intermediate floors would be my reccomendation, EeBb4. Be careful when you set up your trailer bunks so that the strains are distributed through the whole structure and not just bearing on unsupported planking. A layer of 10 oz outside, maybe. And watch out for them oyster shells!

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Hi Eddie,

    Yes and no. I've been lofting the lines and I think I finished that up last night (pending a fresh-eyed look to make sure I'm happy with it). So I'll start making patterns and cutting molds pretty soon.

    Dave
    Sooty Tern Build Thread: Another Tern in the Works!
    Sooty Tern Blog: http://xflow7.wordpress.com

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    There's a good article in Epoxyworks number 10, on pounds to failure and max deflection of plywood (up to 6mm) and cedar strip with and without glass. Unfortunately it doesn't go to 9mm in data, but nonetheless it's good to see comparative numbers, from destruction tested samples...

    http://www.epoxyworks.com/backissues.html

    Ed

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Ed,
    thank you very much for the article. I see 1 layer of 4 oz. glass increases panel strength by almost twice. While 9mm (3/8") is not listed I think you could interpolate its strength is 60% more than 6mm (1/4"). I think I'm covered. I'll consider 6 oz. in the 1st 2 planks and may use a layer in the bilge. All added complication, but I had trouble finding the 9mm and 8mm wasn't to be found from my sources.


    James,
    all good recommendations. I think the boat will be much stronger with glass layers. I was inclined to add them for protection anyway on 6mm or 9mm. I also plan on adding a couple floors. I noted some thought the floor boards flexed w/o these additions. The hull form certainly adds some stiffness too.

    Iain did caution me on the 6mm only by saying the 9mm was overkill. 8mm was ideal, but I hadn't been able to locate anywhere nearby. The 6mm is definitely easier to work with. If you get more from Iain, let me know. I feel I've bugged him enough.

    So, at this stage I can't see pulling the planks off. That is a lot of heat gun action, if that would even work. Lord, I suppose I could order some 9mm and consider the four 6mm planks practice. I now see World Panel does have 9mm in stock now. In August they were out until December.

    I'm going out to the garage now to push and prod on the boat. My confidence may be shaken. I may mock up my own glass ply test!

  17. #17
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    According to John Teale, Designing Small Craft p76-

    Lloyds rule for plywood

    Thickness in inches = 0.12 x cube root of displacement in cubic feet.

    Most people run ST with one person and 50kg ballast - Total 300kg.
    35 cubic ft water per ton

    O.3 x 35 = 10.5

    10.5 cube root = 2.19

    0.12 x 2.19 = 0.263 inches

    = 6.68 mm plywood.


    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 11-13-2013 at 02:53 PM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    According to John Teale, Designing Small Craft p76-

    Lloyds rule for plywood

    Thickness in inches = 0.12 x cube root of displacement in cubic feet.

    Most people run ST with one person and 50kg ballast - Total 300kg.
    35 cubic ft water per ton

    O.3 x 35 = 10.5

    10.5 cube root = 2.19

    0.12 x 2.19 = 0.263 inches

    = 6.68 mm plywood.


    Ed
    Ed,
    you are quickly becoming my favorite member here! I've since cut the blanks and scarfs for the next glue up which I'm about to do. As a very "scientific" test, I perched my 205#s up on the boat and walked (no jumping) around on it. I was prepared to hear a crack, but got none thankfully. There was some flexing of perhaps 1/4" max, but I'm really amazed at how rigid the boat seems to be already. I'm not sure how to discount the 29.5" mould spacing in the crude test, but the floors will be more frequent in the final build. I'll take into consideration all the detailed advice you've given.
    Can't thank you enough Sir. Moving on-
    EB
    Last edited by EeBe4; 11-13-2013 at 07:05 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Bregalad,
    A Sooty is a stretched Arctic (same moulds spaced further apart). There is a Sooty "lines" supplement to build her (+/-$36).

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Thank You.

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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    I'm pushing to complete the planking by Thanksgiving for show-and-tell. There is always the unexpected, but I feel I've the process down now.

    More details on the blog, but here are a couple shots:


    Rudder blank in doug fir. To be glass once shaped. At the risk of stirring something up, I'm thinking NACA 0012 here and maybe 009 for centerboard.



    Epoxy distorts image lines, but they are smooth to my eye. I did add a small fillet in the last plank. I'll return to add them to others. Center case is started and plank #4 blanks are curing now. Been a good weekend! I'm already thinking about ordering sails: =/-$1,800?
    Last edited by EeBe4; 11-18-2013 at 04:38 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    $1800 seems high for sails. I went with duckworks ones which have so far seemed decent and they were around $800 but we'll see how they last. A well regarded local loft quoted $1400.

    I stuck with the stock thicknesses for the foils which gave me a 0007 section at the widest point on both. I didn't taper the foil thickness so the thickness ratio got higher as the board got shorter.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Go, EeBe, go! Plank that baby up!

    I used Sailrite kits for my sails, with the 5.4 oz Supercruise, vertical cut, and a tape luff instead of just a folded hem. (Think it helps keep your luff happy if you're planning on regularly sailing reefed in those higher winds).

  24. #24
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    I did get a quote from Dabbler here in VA. Highly regarded. Was $1400. The $1800 was for a larger boat's genoa.
    I'll have to look into the Sailrite option. Requires an industrial machine I'd guess or hand stitching for the rest of my life?

    I'm going to import the NACA shapes and cadd it up tomorrow.

    As for the 6mm ply: one concern is planks going "flat" between moulds. I noticed a spot on the broads that escaped my notice. Guess I pulled to hard. Wanted to see that squeeze! As the bilge turns and the planks have more arch, I think this is less of an issue. I've taken special care with subsequent planks.

    I'm pumped about the progress. Hitting mile stones are good and I see a hull half done and no longer half not done. Cool.
    -Eddie

  25. #25
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Quote Originally Posted by EeBe4 View Post

    Neil, the ladder tracing method leaves about 1/16" if I cut to the pencil line. I've a Bosch jig saw that is light years beyond my old Black & Decker. Control is real good (as long as I keep my eye on the ball). No faults yet. I cut both sides at the same time and glue the whole plank together. I know Iain recommends on the boat and several do that, but I've had no problems with the 4 I've done thus far.have you started? Would be neat to compare notes as we went along.
    The problem I have been running into is I spiled my planks on top of the battens. The planks look good clamped to the battens but on the plank 3 and 4 when I remove the battens the extra bending pulls the plank away from the previous plank by 1/4 inch or more. I have been compensating for this now. Be advised of this. I'm using 9mm Okoume.

    Neil

  26. #26
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Neil,
    I'm obviously a newbie here. I think you see what I've been doing, but to confirm my ladders are traced off the boat and on the 2 planks which I clamp/nail together. Andy used this method (he was just neater about it). Mine are accurate and stiff, but not presentation worthy.They do give you the very surface that will be the inside face of the plank. After cutting I plane or sand the tracing marks smoothly away.
    I suppose at 20' lengths there is some creep, especially if the batten thickness is added. You wouldn't think it is much, but it is there. I built a 3/4" scale model and more or less followed the method you are talking about. I had errors and fudged planks in, but that won't do for real. 6mm is easier than 9 to move around, but without glassing the garboards and broads I think it is too light. My old Penguin and Moth are 1/4" ply and while they have taken abuse, they're not suited for this sailing. I plan on doubling the floors since some have complained of floor board flex. This will give some rigidity too. Be glad you stuck with 9mm.

    Andy,
    saw your sails. Can you describe the process? I sent for a quote. The idea of having built everything on the boat appeals (and $1000 saved can go toward a trailer!). Your sails look good. Are you happy with the cloth weight?

  27. #27
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Had a good talk with Jeff at Sailrite. $600 for a kit. He is sending some cloth samples in the mail. I just might take that route.

    After getting work out of the way I inspected my rudder blank and the next thing I know I'm slicing away with the jack plane. I'm happy with the results. Amazed myself actually.
    NACA 0007 was the foil which matched the thickness and depth. Had thought of using NACA 0012, but it was too thick for the 31/32" board.





    Last edited by EeBe4; 11-18-2013 at 04:37 PM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Go, EeBe, go! Plank that baby up!

    I used Sailrite kits for my sails, with the 5.4 oz Supercruise, vertical cut, and a tape luff instead of just a folded hem. (Think it helps keep your luff happy if you're planning on regularly sailing reefed in those higher winds).

    JM,
    I talked w/ Jeff Frank at Sailrite about the 4.4 oz vs 5.4 oz SC. He seemed to think that in all but the 3rd reef instance, the 4.4 was a better choice. How long have you used your sails? Did you require an industrial sewing machine? With the right tools, I think I could put a sail together. Thx-
    Eddie
    Last edited by EeBe4; 11-19-2013 at 08:15 PM.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Quote Originally Posted by EeBe4 View Post
    Neil,
    Andy,
    saw your sails. Can you describe the process? I sent for a quote. The idea of having built everything on the boat appeals (and $1000 saved can go toward a trailer!). Your sails look good. Are you happy with the cloth weight?
    Not sure what you want to know? I scanned the sail plan and sent it off and a month later I had a box of sails.

    Considering the sailrite kit costs basically the same as the the duckworks sails I assume the kit uses higher quality sailcloth. The 5.4oz duckworks cloth is quite heavily resined - if sailrite uses a softer cloth it would be nicer to handle. It would probably last better too since there is less resin to get soft.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Quote Originally Posted by andykane View Post
    Not sure what you want to know? I scanned the sail plan and sent it off and a month later I had a box of sails.

    Considering the sailrite kit costs basically the same as the the duckworks sails I assume the kit uses higher quality sailcloth. The 5.4oz duckworks cloth is quite heavily resined - if sailrite uses a softer cloth it would be nicer to handle. It would probably last better too since there is less resin to get soft.
    Andy,
    my mistake. I thought Duckworks was a kit, but realized not on the 2nd read. Sailrite uses "Super Cruise" cloth which I'm told is a denser weave with less resin and therefore softer. I'll report on the samples once received. Thanks-

  31. #31
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Planks 4 & 5 are on. Only the shear planks remain, and I am pausing on this one. My intention is to bright finish this plank inside and out. The balance of the hull will be painted. I've made a mix of a couple Minwax stains that has me happy and mocked up a test panel for the boat.



    Paint is "Sky Blue" semi-gloss by Marshalls Cove. Bill Thomas on OCH seemed to like the ease of application for his Fox canoe. Seems to have an easier workability from the can vs. Brightsides, plus I like their colors better. Stain is a 50/50 mix of Minwax "Golden Oak" and "Golden Pecan". It goes well with the various cherry accents I've planned. I'm going to use ash for the gunwales, but model has pine now (a close color match).

    What else? Centercase slabs are cut. Here is a pic of the gain fence and rabbet plane. Works just as easily as on the manning benches. I do scribe the gain edge with a utility knife to help keep the edge clean. I had gotten some tear out.



    A few more looking forward from aft. I have 2 scarf joints together which was unintended. No issue I don't think, but I had intended to skip a beat. I've maybe 145-150 hrs now from nothing to something. I'm jacked. I think I can have a new boat come Spring.



    She looks kind of brutal with all those filled holes and roughed up stem, but finishing will smooth and make it all go away.

    The shear is still hexing me. I'm not confident it is where it needs to be though it matches the moulds. I think I need to roll the whole works into the drive, paint the shear batten black or grey and study from a distance. This plank means the most aesthetically. Having fun!
    Last edited by EeBe4; 12-08-2013 at 06:18 AM. Reason: grammar

  32. #32
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    I observe that I have a tendency to oversweep the shear. I am battling that a little bit on my present build.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    BTW did you build the model from plans first? That is a smart move if so. Looks very good.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    You might give Douglas Fowler a call for a quote on your sails. He builds a lot of Oughtred DE sails, and does a fabulous job. He has built 3 sets of sails for me now, the last a lug yawl rig. I couldn't be happier with all the work.
    Cricket

  35. #35
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    Default Re: New build (yes, another) Sooty Tern.

    Dave,
    what is you present build? My model has its errors (hidden from camera angle), but did help.

    Jim,
    Dabbler gave me a $1,400 quote. I'll look up Fowler. I'm somewhat resolved on a Sailrite kit, but I can be persuaded.

    Thanks guys-

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