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Thread: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

  1. #1
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    Default Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Tweak is the latest result of my exercise to create a low horsepower planing hull that could be made of three sheets of plywood (took many tweaks to make one Tweak).

    LOA: 503cm/16’ 6”
    Beam: 127cm/50”

    Very close to the lines of Ross Lilistone's Fleet (see here, here and here) it maximises three sheets of plywood (marine grade 8mm okoume 244 x 122cm).











    Last edited by flo-mo; 10-05-2013 at 07:22 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Another absolute beauty from flo-mo. Please will someone just get on and build this hull. Perhaps super strong 6mm birch ply - 3 sheets for 100. Try a 2.5 and 4hp. Reminds me of the Poole canoe we mentioned elsewhere recently. They were 21' http://www.findafishingboat.com/poole-canoe/DB46987

    Would guess if 10' sheets were used she would be about 20' and perfect for an 8 hp?

    Brian

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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Wonderful work, great visioning, thanks for sharing!
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Nice, but you'll need a couple thwarts won't you? That's another sheet and a fourth sheet could give you the chance to do a little optimizing, such as not having to make those separate little side panels at the stem.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Draw it on three 5'x10' sheets at the original scale. You can extend the fore plank, skipping that joint, and have leftovers for thwarts, decks, enclosures.
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Doing it on 5x10 sheets would double your cost or more... those puppies are expensive and add additional for shipping too as they are non standard
    Steve Lewis
    Formerly Lewisboats (don't try to change your email address!)

    http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    I like it! I live on the west coast of Florida and am looking for a small boat to get out on the water. A friend has a 3hp that could work great for some short fishing trips. I am looking for something that would be primarily used inside our keys or a little further out on a really nice day. I do have a couple questions:

    1. Between two adults, a cooler, and fishing gear (650lbs) do you feel this would be a good boat?

    2. No matter how you do it you will need another sheet for seats, knees, and a fore deck. What are your thoughts on these? 2 benches (1 storage and the other flotation), a gas can holder, a supply box aft, and a fore deck that has some dry storage and flotation under a hatch/bulkhead panel?

    3. How long are the little portions? Would it make sense to get these out of the 4th sheet and have them in the rear of the boat?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Quote Originally Posted by 60buckscash View Post

    3. How long are the little portions? Would it make sense to get these out of the 4th sheet and have them in the rear of the boat?
    It would make even more sense to get rid of them entirely Plumbing the stem a bit and/or making the boat a few inches shorter if necessary wouldn't do great injury. But I agree its a really sharp looking design.
    Last edited by JimD; 11-04-2013 at 09:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    happy to post that the build of Tweak successfully started in Lithuania

    Edit: thread removed because of the reasons seen in following replies.
    Last edited by bralgis; 06-10-2016 at 04:47 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Well, it is said that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, so perhaps I should be happy.

    However, there is the matter of internal structure and framing, which in this set of sheet layouts is missing with the exception of the transom and a small semi-bulkhead. I'm interested to see how much material will be consumed in bringing this version into line with an accepted scantling rule, and an acceptable regulatory standard for emergency floatation etc.

    As for JimD's comment about plumbing the stem not doing any injury, I'd like to point out the geometry involved in cylindrical and conical development of sheet panels.

    My original plans cost AUD$60, which is about USD$45 - obviously much too expensive.

    If Bralgis would like assistace in getting some proper structure into his boat, I will respond to email contact with advice and drawings free-of-charge.

    Ross Lillistone
    Last edited by Ross Lillistone; 06-10-2016 at 06:26 AM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Now we're just gilding the Lilli


    Quote Originally Posted by Lewisboater View Post
    Doing it on 5x10 sheets would double your cost or more... those puppies are expensive and add additional for shipping too as they are non standard
    Depends... in parts of Europe they may be common, in North America they can be reasonable if you can pick them up from a main importer/distributor yourself.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Tip of my hat to you Ross, for your restrained and generous response to this.

    Norm

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    I removed the offsets for the panels from my website as I now understand that I upset Ross Lillistone, a designer I truly admire.

    I want to admit that I was too eager to present the idea for my panel layout and did not respect the fact that the resulting hull is way to close to Ross' original design to consider it a new design. I thought that to fully understand my idea it is necessary to show the offsets for the panels.


    I apologize for my thoughtlessness.


    As I was only interested in developing the panels to create the hull there are no further thoughts regarding the interior structure or the scantling.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Hi Bralgis,

    I just realized that you deleted your building thread -- I am sorry for that.
    I don't think that you did anything wrong - I am to blame for this unpleasant situation.

    I hope that Ross will accept my apology.


    As your building thread no longer exists, I'd like to add my replys to Ross' comment from that thread:

    Hi Ross,


    I am sorry for causing more than understandable discomfort for you by publishing my idea for a hull design based on your Fleet.
    I can't take any credit for the design because it is much to close to the lines of your original. I can only take credit for the special panel layout.


    I was just interested to see if it is possible to develop a simple cut pattern for panels to create a hull that is very close to a stretched version of your lovely design and only requires 3 sheets of plywood. The scale model I built showed me that in principle it should work.


    So it is only an idea for a hull made of three sheets of plywood and not an actual boat design and therefor there is no interior structure or any scantling other than a recommendation for the thickness of the plywood.


    I could not resist to share this idea on the forum.


    Of course I am really interested in Bralgis' project and what he will come up with for the interior and I think it is only fair that he is willing to purchase the plans for your Fleet (something I would have recommended too).


    If you think I should remove the offsets for the panels from my website, please just let me know and I will gladly do so.


    My best wishes to you
    Stefan

    I just removed the offsets.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    I am feeling bad about coming across as being ungracious. It was not my intention to have the offsets taken down - I have been aware of Flo-mo's work for a long time, and I understand that he has, from the beginning, given me credit for the original design. If somebody would prefer to build Flo-mo's boat, that is fine by me, and as is evidenced by my reply to Bralgis, I am prepared to help with the internal structure - free-of-charge.

    Most design work builds on what has been done by someone else, and that is as it should be. What concerns me is when forum members start encouraging the building of a boat to carry people, when the design is a concept only, without the required internal structure and emergency buoyancy to ensure that the boat complies with regulatory standards. My original Fleet is designed to meet or exceed Dave Gerr's scantling rules, and complies with Australian Standard AS1799.

    Another absolute beauty from flo-mo. Please will someone just get on and build this hull. Perhaps super strong 6mm birch ply - 3 sheets for 100. Try a 2.5 and 4hp. Reminds me of the Poole canoe we mentioned elsewhere recently. They were 21'http://www.findafishingboat.com/poole-canoe/DB46987

    Would guess if 10' sheets were used she would be about 20' and perfect for an 8 hp?

    Brian

    Above is an example of what I mean. Brian is an enthusiastic supporter of the forum, and his comments are encouraging - all very positive and well-meaning. The problem is duty-of-care. What if an enthusiastic first-timer built the boat without understanding that Flo-mo's primary aim (as far as I am aware) was to experiment with panel layouts, rather than producing a design to be used in open water conditions?

    I have tested my original Fleet design in quite serious coastal conditions using a 9.8hp Tohatsu, carrying two adult men and a normal load of gear. The testing was done into head-seas, across the wind, in quartering conditions and down wind. She has also been tested in a crossing combination of wind-generated waves and heavy motorboat wakes. As designed, with generous internal framing and very strong longitudinal box-beams in the form of the buoyancy tanks, she came through fine, but some of the stresses and shock loadings made me think deeply! There is a big difference between a duck-pond and open water, and a designer cannot control where a boat is going to be operated.

    I have no objection at all to Flo-mo putting the offsets up on his site, and I encourage it for the purpose of model-making and experimentation. However, all I suggest is that people understand the difference between healthy experimentation and a finished design which will carry a human load in rough water.

    Please do not think that I consider myself to be an expert - my work is simply produced with as much care as possible given my qualifications. I am not a Structural Engineer, nor a Naval Architect, but I do take care to adhere to standards, and on occasions when I cannot find a published formula or suitable standard, I pay for the services of an engineer. Even so, I think twice before putting a set of drawings on the market (for the record, my nautical qualifications are Certificate III in Marine Craft Construction)

    Bralgis, I am still happy to help out with your boat if you would like assistance - no charge.

    Ross Lillistone

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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    There is a huge difference between a panel lay out on plywood and a complete set of boat plans. I can see where Ross is coming from, but he is selling construction plans, so has a duty of care to make sure they are fit for purpose. I would hesitate to say flo-mo has the same liabilities when displaying panel lay outs and a cardboard model.
    Anyway, glad to see a gentlemans agreement and "no harm done". As usual, lovely work flo-mo, and gracious of Ross to offer help with internal structure. If only politicians could be so nice........

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    There is a huge difference between a panel lay out on plywood and a complete set of boat plans. I can see where Ross is coming from, but he is selling construction plans, so has a duty of care to make sure they are fit for purpose. I would hesitate to say flo-mo has the same liabilities when displaying panel lay outs and a cardboard model.
    Anyway, glad to see a gentlemans agreement and "no harm done". As usual, lovely work flo-mo, and gracious of Ross to offer help with internal structure. If only politicians could be so nice........
    Skaraborgcraft, Thank-you for the response. I take your comment about politicians as a great compliment!

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    This thread has done nothing but increase my respect for for both Ross and flo-mo - I view Ross as a conscientious designer of complete boats and flo-mo as an extraordinary artist in the transformation of 2D shapes to 3D forms. It is good to have it confirmed that both are also nice people.
    Last edited by Clarkey; 06-11-2016 at 03:35 AM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Ross,

    Thank you so much for taking your time to respond and for explaining your point.

    I am guilty of overflowing the forum with my design ideas without emphasizing the fact that most of them are only half-baked ideas by a mere amateur designer and not thinking what might be the consequences if someone decides to build one of my designs without realizing this.

    Bralgis and I had a short conversation about an even lager version of your Fleet back in 2014 and my recommendation was to have a look at the boats in this thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...nd-Gulbrandsen

    Now that Bralgis decided to build my version of your design it is my impression that he gave some thought about the build and I am looking forward to his progress.

    Here are my ideas for the interior for a similar small motor boat (it is a stretched version of one of my one sheet boats: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...nes-Core-Sound) but again no scantling just an idea for a design and not a proper boat design.












  21. #21
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Flo-mo,

    I think that your design is an exceptionally good-looking and well proportioned boat. I am also very impressed by the tasteful renderings - something which I am unable to accomplish.

    In terms of the hydrostatics and dynamics, it would be helpful to see where the centre-of-buoyancy is located, and to know the prismatic coefficient. From viewing the keel and chine-line in profile, I assume that she is intended to run at the top of the displacement speed/length ratio or the lower end of the semi-displacement range? If so, perhaps a little more volume forward may help, but I would need to see the present location of the CB.

    Regardless of the details, I think she is a visually beautiful boat, and I very much admire your ability to produce conically and cylindrically developed panel shapes which are so pleasing to the eye. Currently I am attempting some designs in which the panel development is done by geometrical drawing using the old methods. Very interesting work, but time consuming.

    If you are happy to give me your email address by pm, or email me directly, I would very much like to discuss panel development.

    Best wishes.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Ross,
    thank you for your kind words. The renderings are just part of the features of the programs I use (in this case ProSurf 3), so not my accomplishment.

    This little design exercise was induced by your article about displacement/half-displacement hulls where you also mentioned William Hand's designs which I heard for the first time. It was a quick attempt of altering the one sheet boat I mentioned to a more grown-up design which went amazingly well.
    The program provides hydrostatics as well, but I was just fooling around with the lines and it is not a serious take on a design.

    I'd be happy to get in contact with you, so I will send a pm.

    Best wishes,
    Stefan

    ps: I really hope that Bralgis will chime in again. He did a great job so far (http://postimg.org/gallery/2z4utdh0c...d8de810&page=2) and I would like to see the progress of his build.

    pps: I think it was the right decision to remove the offsets for the panel layout of my version of your Fleet. If there are still people interested in these offsets, they can approach me via pm and then I can point out the problematic aspect off my hull design and the precondition of getting the offsets would be to purchase the plans for your Fleet.
    Last edited by flo-mo; 06-13-2016 at 07:17 AM. Reason: typo

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Quote Originally Posted by flo-mo View Post
    and the precondition off getting the offsets would be to purchase the plans for your Fleet.
    I think that's what any sensible chap would want to do anyway, get full plans and instructions for an original design before even thinking about building the variation.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    I am happy that Algis is back with a build thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Lithuania-2016

    This was a motivation for me to finally create a 3D-model (Rhino) of Tweak and also to make some effort to give a suggestion for the interior layout.
    The 3D-model is based on the lines of this previously built 1:10 scale model:









    It was also an opportunity to improve my skills in Rhino. A by-product of this process are these videos which I created just for the fun of it.

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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet


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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Nice renderings, wish i had the time and patience to learn that stuff....

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet

    Just so more fooling around with renderings:


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    Default Re: Tweak - a three sheet Fleet


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