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Thread: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but are you going to glass the exterior?
    As for standing on the centerboard, I suppose if your foot was on the board at keel level, it would be OK.
    I will be glassing the exterior Rich. It's optional, but I like the idea of the hard shell. Actually I will be doing that within the next month and will probably be up to current time with my postings.

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by dktyson View Post
    All my concerns are laid to rest. The key seems to be to not let a gorilla dance on the centerboard- or not capsize. I appreciate your offer Don- would this be a bad time to tell you I weigh 400 lbs?
    400 lbs! No need for ballast then.

    Seriously, try testing the board on the bench just so you can get a feel for it's resistance to bending. I would be really interested in seeing what comes of it. This would be a good time to get your wife involved in the building process.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Kurylko View Post
    400 lbs! No need for ballast then.

    Seriously, try testing the board on the bench just so you can get a feel for it's resistance to bending. I would be really interested in seeing what comes of it. This would be a good time to get your wife involved in the building process.
    Ok Don. I'll schedule some time in the lab for materials testing. I won't be inclined to "test to failure" so you shouldn't have to make me a new board.
    Last edited by dktyson; 10-07-2013 at 08:52 PM.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesh View Post
    I guess you meant 5/16 holes?
    I would think your ok as the holes are at the middle third of the board, whistling the main stress is in the outer third of the board thickness. have you space for another layer of glass cloth? Or better still unidirectional fibers going up and down the board.
    James
    Oops, I don't know where 5/15" came from. Not really room for glass cloth, but I agree that would strengthen it quite a bit.

  5. #105
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    Really wanted a change of pace at this point, so I laminated up a blank of white ash to make the bowsprit. I used Ash because I wanted extra strength to avoid needing whisker stays- ok actually I used Ash because I had some around and hadn't bought the Sitka spruce for the spars yet.


    Cut the square to an octagon. The bowsprit is tapered and I wanted to create the taper while cutting the corners off. I miscalculated, hence the unequal sides on my octagon out at the narrow end. It all worked out with extra shaping and aggravation.


    The butt end is left square for the attachment to the samson post.


    A rudimentary wood lathe using a right angle drill. Not solid or centered enough to use a tool on the wood, but it worked pretty well with a wood rasp.




    I hot glued a block to the base. A bolt sticking out of the block allows it to be held in the drill chuck. Next time I will remember to leave the spar blank long enough to eliminate the glued-on block. I managed to shape the bowsprit without any major equipment failures or injury. Don't try this at home.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    Coat of epoxy. Ready to be set aside for a year or two.


    Cut to receive the mast band for the bobstay and jib

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    You could of course epoxy some carbon fibres down the blade? Perhaps 6" wide these would stiffen the blade considerably, and would prevent wear the blade against the center board case, whilst not being very thick.
    Nice build by the way, im sure your enjoying the build very much!
    James

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesh View Post
    You could of course epoxy some carbon fibres down the blade? Perhaps 6" wide these would stiffen the blade considerably, and would prevent wear the blade against the center board case, whilst not being very thick.
    Nice build by the way, im sure your enjoying the build very much!
    James
    Thanks James- that sounds like a good idea, preventing wear. I can see that rubbing against the centerboard case would eventually wear through the paint and epoxy down to bare wood.

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    Aft deck framing. Box for outboard engine/motor. I'm thinking 2 hp Honda or maybe Torqueedo if I have money left. Concerned about range with the electric though. (purists take note: there will also be 2 sets of oarlocks.) The framing will be covered with 1/4" marine ply and then 1/8" teak strips on top of that. The mizzen mast will pass through a hole yet-to-be-drilled in that wide piece of mahogany on the far side.




    Plywood deck


    Mizzen mast step fabricated


    Mizzen mast step epoxied in place, hole drilled for mizzen mast.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Hi, I enjoy watching your step by step construction. Nice photos. Good work.

    I just stop the construction of my 19 ft sailboat in the beginning of October because cold is showing up. Here in Canada winter is earlier than PA. I'll be back to work next spring, beginning May.

    I like your workshop.

    Keep on posting.

    Cheers
    ''The work is teaching the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Lone Sailor in 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world lone sailing race.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by sailcanoefan View Post
    Hi, I enjoy watching your step by step construction. Nice photos. Good work.

    I just stop the construction of my 19 ft sailboat in the beginning of October because cold is showing up. Here in Canada winter is earlier than PA. I'll be back to work next spring, beginning May.

    I like your workshop.

    Keep on posting.

    Cheers
    Thank you for the kind words. I was through your region last summer on my way to spend a week in Tadoussac. Beautiful!

    I am able to build through most of the winter, though I need to suspend epoxy work in January and February. The shop is insulated and small enough to heat, but I don't like to keep it warm for long periods for epoxy to cure.

    I would be interested to see photos of your boat. Can't get enough of boat building pictures.

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Hello...So you visited Tadoussac. Did you see the whales?

    Here is the link for my thread of my 19 ft Cruising Sailboat, from DN Goddchild.
    Original plans from: Bruce and Willard Crandall, 1941 oldie but goodie.

    Hope photos will be of some help.

    Note: My boat is made of plywood.



    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...oodchild-Plans
    ''The work is teaching the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Lone Sailor in 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world lone sailing race.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Yes I did see the whales. I have a brother-in-law who's family has a place there so we had the opportunity to visit.

    I'll check the link- Thanks!

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    Scribing a plywood pattern for the coaming frame. 1' 11" radius.


    Mahogany transom frame installed. It is inletted into the top of the sheer clamps and beam and faired to the curve of the deck beam.


    Samson post and deck beam ready to install. Compound angles on these deck beams have really tested my abilities. I won't show the joint from the first one I installed.


    Main mast partner fabricated and epoxied one coat. The first part I've installed that will have a natural finish. A milestone! From here on in... no wood butchery allowed.


    All the parts dry fitted so I can determine the placement of the bowsprit. I stretched a string down the centerline to place the end of the angled bowsprit dead center.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    Better shot showing the mainmast partner and mast box dry fitted along with the samson post alignment setup.


    Mainmast partner. Bronze eyebolts will go in the holes on each side of the mast cutout- they will hold a bronze bar that will serve as a mast gate. The mast box improves the ability to step the mast in awkward conditions.

    Samson post backing piece inletted into the deck beam. 1/4" plywood decking will tie it all together into one unit.


    Plywood decking test fitted. Will be covered with teak strips- same as the aft deck.


    Everything glued in place. Breast hooks glued in as well. The upper breast hook has a piece of plywood glued to the top to thicken it by a 1/4" so I didn't have to go looking for 1 5/8" material. The front watertight compartment is complete at this point. A coat of topcoat paint and I could close it up- except I'm afraid I might find some reason that I should have left it open for later.

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Looks great! I'm enjoying the thread
    !

    /fredrik

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Thanks Fredrik!

    I think I will have to slow down the posting because soon I will be up to current time. After that, the pics will come in ones and twos... Less is more probably anyhow, right?

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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Hello. Is there any water that might get inside footstep....cuz this can be hazard to rot?

    A hole can solve the problem (hole like limber hole)
    ''The work is teaching the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Lone Sailor in 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world lone sailing race.

  19. #119
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by sailcanoefan View Post
    Hello. Is there any water that might get inside footstep....cuz this can be hazard to rot?

    A hole can solve the problem (hole like limber hole)
    For water to get into the front watertight compartment, there would need to be a deck leak or hole in the hull, both of which seem unlikely given the epoxy construction. Limber holes are an option, but would need to be kept plugged to maintain watertightness of the compartment. There are 2 large removable inspection ports fore and aft which I will leave open whenever the boat is off the water to avoid any chance of rot. The inspection ports are there because there is no way to guarantee that water never enters those areas.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    OK good.
    ''The work is teaching the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Lone Sailor in 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world lone sailing race.

  21. #121
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    Fitting the outer stem. Like the inner stem it is 3 layers of mahogany staggered for strength, laminated together with thickened MAS epoxy, and attached with stainless steel carriage bolts through the inner stem.

    Note on stainless steel: Don specifies bronze for all the fasteners, but after researching I concluded that stainless is fine for this build where the fasteners are completely encased in epoxy and will never see water at all. They certainly will never be soaked long term in stagnant salt water... I've spent the money so far on the best materials, but I couldn't bring myself to spend the money unnecessarily for bronze fasteners that will be sealed up permanently.
    Exposed fasteners will be bronze.


    Outer keel attached. The bobstay eyebolt is stainless steel. Couldn't find bronze with a long enough shank even after searching the ENTIRE internet. Could have had one custom made of course, but this isn't a particularly traditional boat that absolutely requires bronze.

  22. #122
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Hopefully no one will tell me NOW where I could have found a bronze shoulder bolt with a 7" shank for less than a small fortune... That stainless bolt is epoxy cast in place and will NEVER come out.

  23. #123
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    Test fitting the bilge pump. It will have a short stub pipe with a screen out the bottom and a pipe with an elbow which will empty into a hole in the top of the fore end of the centerboard case- you can't see it in this photo.

  24. #124
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Teak decks... Nice! You don't often see teak decks on a boat this size. I was a bit worried that you'd be just covering the decks with FG. That fir marine ply wouldn't be the best for just FG.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  25. #125
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    I hear you Rich. The teak strips will be bedded in thickened, black pigmented epoxy on top of the plywood. It's a token amount of teak, but it should look sharp.

  26. #126
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by dktyson View Post

    Note on stainless steel: Don specifies bronze for all the fasteners, but after researching I concluded that stainless is fine for this build where the fasteners are completely encased in epoxy and will never see water at all. They certainly will never be soaked long term in stagnant salt water... I've spent the money so far on the best materials, but I couldn't bring myself to spend the money unnecessarily for bronze fasteners that will be sealed up permanently.


    Im just reading your thread now for the first time. Looks good. A sweet boat.

    I find it odd that you would suddenly decide to save some bucks here. My understanding is that SS needs to be exposed to oxygen to maintain its rust resistant properties. The bobstay eye I understand, but I personally wouldn't be encasing stainless fasteners in epoxy.

    Just my $.02. Great project.
    Member of the Loyal, Mostly-Noble, Elite and Most Ancient order of the Laughing Polar Bear Cap Society.

    I ask out of Ignorance, not Criticism.

  27. #127
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Im just reading your thread now for the first time. Looks good. A sweet boat.

    I find it odd that you would suddenly decide to save some bucks here. My understanding is that SS needs to be exposed to oxygen to maintain its rust resistant properties. The bobstay eye I understand, but I personally wouldn't be encasing stainless fasteners in epoxy.

    Just my $.02. Great project.
    If my statement makes it appear that I suddenly decided to start saving money now, it is not what I intended. Many of the stainless screws were already installed by the time I realized the corrosion issues. I did the research, and decided to continue using them because I don't believe the corrosion concerns apply to the fasteners, in the way that I have utilized them.

    It's true that SS needs to be exposed to oxygen to resist corrosion, but it's also true that it needs to be exposed to water to corrode. If it's sealed up and never sees water, how can it corrode? (Of course you might say that it's foolish to think that anything is ever permanently "sealed up" on a wooden boat- I'll concede that point)

    I must say, that as the hours spent on this project mount, I am becoming more and more accepting of the high cost of the best materials. Not spending like a drunken sailor yet though...
    Last edited by dktyson; 10-16-2013 at 07:55 PM.

  28. #128
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    All the interior parts which will be painted are installed. They have been glued and screwed in place and coated with several coats of pigmented epoxy.


    Another view of bulkheads, thwart beams, bench and thwarts supports etc. Everything needs sanding, epoxy fillets and some additional fairing inside the hull before painting, but I want to begin the fabrication and fitting of floorboards, benches and thwarts. Joinery has been easier up to this point since cosmetic woodworking shortcomings can be hidden by epoxy and paint. All the interior work after this will involve bright finished mahogany.

  29. #129
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Lovely work. I especially like your coaming support,nice timber you are working with. Thanks for sharing.

  30. #130
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Lovely work. I especially like your coaming support,nice timber you are working with. Thanks for sharing.
    I appreciate your interest and compliments.

    I am really enjoying working with mahogany, as it is so stable, clear and nice to work. I wish it were cheaper...
    Last edited by dktyson; 10-17-2013 at 06:11 PM.

  31. #131
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Did you make the mast already...or I missed it?

    I wonder how you will do it, cuz I have to make mine this winter.

    Maybe cut a spruce tree in the forest close by???
    ''The work is teaching the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Lone Sailor in 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world lone sailing race.

  32. #132
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    wicked cool build thread, thanks
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  33. #133
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    A peak ahead at present day progress. (the last pictures posted bring the project up to a few months ago)
    I won't post any pictures of the boat right at the present stage of the build until I get to that point in the thread, but below is the Myst component list which shows that I have fabricated every wooden part inside the boat (below the sheer) - spars excluded.
    This was an intimidating list when I first received the plans about 4 years ago- it might as well have been written in Greek. There is AT LEAST another year of work to be done before completion, but at least this list is nearly all ticked off.


  34. #134
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by sailcanoefan View Post
    Did you make the mast already...or I missed it?

    I wonder how you will do it, cuz I have to make mine this winter.

    Maybe cut a spruce tree in the forest close by???
    I didn't make the masts yet. I plan to do that this winter. The main mast will be hollow birds-mouth construction and the mizzen and other spars will be solid. I've never done a hollow spar before so it should be interesting. The bowsprit is the only spar that I have made so far.

    I think I would need to come to Montreal for a good spruce tree.

  35. #135
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    "wicked cool" is higher praise than I could have hoped for...

  36. #136
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    wicked cool build thread, thanks

    Wicked cool ... yep, about right .
    Try to work out what the marketing guy wants you to do then do precisely the opposite.

  37. #137
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    Fitting the floor boards. 3/4" thick mahogany.


    Up to 400 lbs. lead shot ballast can be stashed under the floorboards amidships in nylon or vinyl bags. It can be added or subtracted depending on load and conditions. I will leave one board each side with just a couple of screws to make adjusting the ballast easier.


    The floorboards will be oiled - don't want to start the - oil vs. varnish vs. bare- debate. But feel free... I can't wait to see these boards finished properly and contrasting with the painted interior. Tired of looking at the epoxy coated interior, but I want to be finished with fitting all the interior parts before I paint.


    That bronze shaft is the pivot for the centerboard - not cut to length yet.
    Last edited by dktyson; 10-18-2013 at 06:41 PM.

  38. #138
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl


    Floorboards in the cockpit. The compass fits in the hole in the bulkhead in the upper right. Lifting eye bolted through the keel and skeg on the left.

  39. #139
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Kent - a daily dose of your build thread has kept me sane while I've been away from my shop for two months. Beautiful work and great pics - keep it coming. BTW - excellent boat choice!

    Jim

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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    I have to mention about the number of floors i have come across that have become soft or rotted out due to screw fixings holding down the floorboards, over the long term. I think this really is a place where an oversized hole filled with epoxy works, and if you dont like the screw holding power in epoxy itself,put a sacrificial bit of dowl in the oversize epoxy hole for the screw to bite into it.If you are intending to remove your floorboards on a regular basis for cleaning the bilge and refinishing your boards, i would think something more than a screw dipped in varnish is appropriate.

  41. #141
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Kent - Once the bronze shaft will be cut, what will you do to close the square hole? What kind of plug.
    ''The work is teaching the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Lone Sailor in 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world lone sailing race.

  42. #142
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim.Montana View Post
    Kent - a daily dose of your build thread has kept me sane while I've been away from my shop for two months. Beautiful work and great pics - keep it coming. BTW - excellent boat choice!

    Jim
    Hey Jim! A few pictures of your version of Myst would be a useful addition to this thread.

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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have to mention about the number of floors i have come across that have become soft or rotted out due to screw fixings holding down the floorboards, over the long term. I think this really is a place where an oversized hole filled with epoxy works, and if you dont like the screw holding power in epoxy itself,put a sacrificial bit of dowl in the oversize epoxy hole for the screw to bite into it.If you are intending to remove your floorboards on a regular basis for cleaning the bilge and refinishing your boards, i would think something more than a screw dipped in varnish is appropriate.
    I was actually going to ask the forum for advice on this exact subject. I have been thinking about the best way to deal with screws in the floorboards, especially the ones that may be frequently removed. Thanks for the advice!

  44. #144
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by sailcanoefan View Post
    Kent - Once the bronze shaft will be cut, what will you do to close the square hole? What kind of plug.
    I have stainless steel plates that will be set in some sort of non-adhesive sealing/bedding compound and fastened with 4 screws that will cover the ends of the pivot shaft. This would be a good time to ask the forum for advice on what compound to use...

  45. #145
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by dktyson View Post
    Hey Jim! A few pictures of your version of Myst would be a useful addition to this thread.
    Kent - Alongside yours, most of my pictures would be redundant. I'd also have to be very selective to find pictures of my build that would stand up to the quality of yours. I'm not sure I want to see a side-by-side comparison.


    On the other hand, I have given some thought to a spin-off thread highlighting some of the issues encountered and decisions to be made when building a glued lapstrake version of Myst. For a while I kept notes about such things, but lately haven't kept it up. I'd have to see if I can resurrect the notes and bring them up to date. Food for thought for the future.


    Jim

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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by dktyson View Post
    I was actually going to ask the forum for advice on this exact subject. I have been thinking about the best way to deal with screws in the floorboards, especially the ones that may be frequently removed. Thanks for the advice!
    I used bronze machine screws set in oversized holes filled with thickened epoxy, as suggested. Some will loosen over time but the epoxy can be drilled out and refilled, if necessary. I only remove my boards once or twice a year for cleaning and re-oiling. If you were to remove them more often you'd probably go with toggles and pins, I'd think.

    The trick to lining everything up is to drill a pilot hole that is just slightly smaller than the machine screw diameter, and drill it down as far as you care to go, maybe a quarter of an inch above the keel. When you drill out the anulus that receives the epoxy, don't drill all the way down, leave the tip of the machine screw well set in at least a quarter or 3/8 of an inch. Wet out the hole with unthickened epoxy, as always, then wet out the screw with vaseline before inserting into the epoxy. The screw should stand proud exactly the thickness of the floorboard after countersinking.

    Somebody may have found an even better way so wait for that before proceeding.

  47. #147
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
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    48,613

    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Personally, I like the idea of panels of permanently assembled floorboards which are held in place by twist toggles, probably made of HDPE . It seems as if such an assembly would be less likely to allow water into the structure. The toggles would be attached by machine screws much as Darroch suggests.
    Try to work out what the marketing guy wants you to do then do precisely the opposite.

  48. #148
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
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    Barto, PA USA
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim.Montana View Post
    Kent - Alongside yours, most of my pictures would be redundant. I'd also have to be very selective to find pictures of my build that would stand up to the quality of yours. I'm not sure I want to see a side-by-side comparison.


    On the other hand, I have given some thought to a spin-off thread highlighting some of the issues encountered and decisions to be made when building a glued lapstrake version of Myst. For a while I kept notes about such things, but lately haven't kept it up. I'd have to see if I can resurrect the notes and bring them up to date. Food for thought for the future.


    Jim
    That sounds like a plan Jim. It looks to me like glued lapstrake adds a whole new level of complexity to some of the interior work. There would be nothing redundant about that!

  49. #149
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    Aug 2013
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    Barto, PA USA
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    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Thanks Rod and Peter- I am filing these ideas for the day I attach the floorboards permanently. Where's a good source for toggles? Is there another name for them outside the Commonwealth?

  50. #150
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Sweden,Scilly Isles, Siberia
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    4,472

    Default Re: Building the D18 Myst - 18' Beach Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by dktyson View Post
    I have stainless steel plates that will be set in some sort of non-adhesive sealing/bedding compound and fastened with 4 screws that will cover the ends of the pivot shaft. This would be a good time to ask the forum for advice on what compound to use...
    I would use a polysulphide compound for that purpose.
    Toggles or turn-buttons in some circles are also an alternative, it really depends where you place them and if you are likely to stub your toe on them. If you want to get really fancy you could fit flush fitting lift ring latches, but i wouldnt like them to spend much time submerged.



    certainly availiable in brass and stainless, not sure about bronze. Just another option for you, or maybe not if no frame for the latch to locate into.....
    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 10-21-2013 at 05:56 AM.

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