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Thread: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

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    Default TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    I started this topic in my "Boat Barn: Digging Out, Repairing, Building Boats" thread and thought it might be helpful for it to have it's own thread.

    I have an Albin AD-2 which is a 19-20HP Swedish Marine Diesel. It's 500lbs of reliable cast iron which I'd like to build a fishing boat around. I'm thinking that this engine can take a little boost and would like to turbocharge it for a little more oomph.

    This engine is mechanically injected. Here's some of the background:

    Fuel Injection Pump: Simms P4717/1
    Fuel Injectors: Simms N1172A
    Opening Pressure: 2350psi
    Injection Quantity (Full Speed) 6.3 - 6.4 cm3
    (200 injections at 600 rpm)

    Governor All-speed centrifugal


    Does anyone on the board have any experience with the Simms pumps? I understand they were the standard for the Fordson brands.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    I think the key to successful turbocharging in practical terms will be careful heat management. There will be a lot more heat to deal with.
    From what I have just read, the Simms pumps have fixed timing, albeit more advanced than many, which may limit your options. Increased fuel could be arranged by fitting larger injectors at the possible cost of over fueling when not on boost.

    If you are going to be building from scratch, do you really want to run what is essentially an experimental setup on a new boat with all that involves?
    Have a hunt around to see if there is already a turbocharged version of your engine. If there isnt, there will be a good reason why.

    Most turbodiesels fall into the category of being relatively high speed engines. I dont think a 500lb 20HP is one of those.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Diesel engines are less flexible than gas engines. You are better off using a motor designed for your intended applicati
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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    I have mentioned this in another thread, but if all you want is a "little more oomph" just send the pump and injectors to a competent shop and have them turn the pump up. You can increase both the fuel delivery and the full load rpm, both which will give you more power. You may be able to change the nozzles on the injectors to allow more delivery, but the nature of hydraulics, as you know, will allow more volume through the same orifice by just increasing the pressure. A small power increase, say 10%, is usually pretty simple and routine.

    To add a turbo charger, or supercharger, you really need more volume in the combustion chamber.
    It can be done, but to do it correctly is more complex than first imagined.
    If you want the name of the pump shop (person) that I use, PM me and I will fill in the details - In my opinion there is not a "good" shop in the bay area any more. The shops that are here can do routine stuff, but their primary interest is taking your money. (The person that I use was rent priced out of the bay area back in '05 or so... He is honest and reasonable)

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Couple of questions...
    (two cylinders?)
    Does this Simms pump have an oil reservoir or an external oil line to lube the pump? (this dates it)
    I assume it has a mechanical governor and not a pneumatic type?

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Couple of questions...
    (two cylinders?)
    Does this Simms pump have an oil reservoir or an external oil line to lube the pump? (this dates it)
    I assume it has a mechanical governor and not a pneumatic type?
    This is the engine (although not mine)



    I'll go look over my engine this evening to see how lubrication is routed.
    The governer is centrifugal, so it stands to reason it can be "tuned" by modifying the weights.
    Last edited by BrianM; 09-12-2013 at 05:16 PM.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Stiletto View Post
    I think the key to successful turbocharging in practical terms will be careful heat management. There will be a lot more heat to deal with.
    From what I have just read, the Simms pumps have fixed timing, albeit more advanced than many, which may limit your options. Increased fuel could be arranged by fitting larger injectors at the possible cost of over fueling when not on boost.

    If you are going to be building from scratch, do you really want to run what is essentially an experimental setup on a new boat with all that involves?
    Have a hunt around to see if there is already a turbocharged version of your engine. If there isnt, there will be a good reason why.

    Most turbodiesels fall into the category of being relatively high speed engines. I dont think a 500lb 20HP is one of those.
    This engine's max RPM is 2200 RPM. I'm guessing that isn't classified as "high speed".

    I like a challenge. This engine is so robustly built, I'm confident it can take well engineered boost. A turbocharged Albin would first need to be proven before I dropped it into a hull.

    It once occuppied the engine bay of my sailboat. I dropped in a Kubota based Universal 3 cylinder in the same hole and have room to spare over the Albin.. but I gave up the hand-crank and true "marine engine" nature for a high speed (3000RPM) 26HP engine. The Albin needs rebuilding so I'll have it completely torn down anyhow giving me opportunity to look at forged pistons, reducing the compression ratio (if needed), integrating an exhaust temp probe, and re-engineering the exhaust manifold to fit a turbo while I'm in there.


    The Albin is and old engine and turbocharging small marine engines was unheard of (as far as I know) up 'til the late 80's.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I have mentioned this in another thread, but if all you want is a "little more oomph" just send the pump and injectors to a competent shop and have them turn the pump up. You can increase both the fuel delivery and the full load rpm, both which will give you more power. You may be able to change the nozzles on the injectors to allow more delivery, but the nature of hydraulics, as you know, will allow more volume through the same orifice by just increasing the pressure. A small power increase, say 10%, is usually pretty simple and routine.

    To add a turbo charger, or supercharger, you really need more volume in the combustion chamber.
    It can be done, but to do it correctly is more complex than first imagined.
    If you want the name of the pump shop (person) that I use, PM me and I will fill in the details - In my opinion there is not a "good" shop in the bay area any more. The shops that are here can do routine stuff, but their primary interest is taking your money. (The person that I use was rent priced out of the bay area back in '05 or so... He is honest and reasonable)
    Pacific Fuel Injection in Burlingame, CA was where I brought all my injectors for gas engines in the past (usually Bosch). That fellow was getting up in years in the late 80's so I would be surprised if he is still around.

    I'm PM you offline about your shop.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    I think there is a lot to be said for an older style (non electronic) diesel engine in marine applications.

    Keep us informed of your progress, It will be an interesting exercise.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Generic image showing the oil fill, level and drain for the Simms pump.
    Most do not know that you have to check the level and lubricate these and the only reason they stay alive is if enough diesel fuel leaks by and fill up to sump. Not optimum lubrication but sometimes that can keep it from burning up -lol



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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    When you start cramming more air into the cylinder, which is what a turbo does, your going to have increase the amount of fuel or you will have a very lean burn. That could quickly fry an engine, at least a gasoline engine and I assume diesel is no different. Somehow you have to match the two together. I have turbocharged gas engines and the turbo was pulling through the carb so the increase in air flow automatically pulled more fuel.

    I am not familiar with a diesel but if that is a mechanical pump I would think that injects a set amount of fuel based on RPMs. If you just add a turbo and more air, you going to be really lean. So somehow you have to get that pump to inject more and the right amount of fuel or risk a fried engine. You may know this already but better to mention it.

    As was mentioned, turbos can dramatically increase the engine compartment heat. I can spot a turbo engine before seeing it just by the heat that comes out from under the hood when it is opened.
    Jeff
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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kudzu View Post
    When you start cramming more air into the cylinder, which is what a turbo does, your going to have increase the amount of fuel or you will have a very lean burn. That could quickly fry an engine, at least a gasoline engine and I assume diesel is no different. Somehow you have to match the two together. I have turbocharged gas engines and the turbo was pulling through the carb so the increase in air flow automatically pulled more fuel. I am not familiar with a diesel but if that is a mechanical pump I would think that injects a set amount of fuel based on RPMs. If you just add a turbo and more air, you going to be really lean. So somehow you have to get that pump to inject more and the right amount of fuel or risk a fried engine. You may know this already but better to mention it.As was mentioned, turbos can dramatically increase the engine compartment heat. I can spot a turbo engine before seeing it just by the heat that comes out from under the hood when it is opened.
    Your points are well understood. An "ideal" engine will pull a perfect mixture of fuel and air at any RPM and any Load condition. Electronic Fuel Injection using Air Mass Measurement intakes and feedback from Oxygen sensors in the exhaust as well as crankshaft position can quickly calculate optimum mixture at any moment and keep power or economy optimized at all times.

    The challenge is understanding this Mechanical Logic System to see:
    - What variables it "senses" (RPM, Manifold Pressure?), etc
    - What variables it doesn't control
    - How to manipulate the existing systems to attempt to keep fuel/air mixture near optimum at all loads and RPMs
    - Keep reliability at an acceptable level for a Marine Engine

    Since this is a Marine Engine, cooling is always a challenge as there is no "under the hood" airflow, but I appreciate your points on how a turbo system compounds that.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    I hate when people state the obvious in forums, but I thought I would break my rule and do it anyway just in case. :-)

    Sounds you do have a grasp on what your doing. But the turbo will get very hot and as far as I know you can't water cool one, the hotter they are the better they work. Never really thought about it but it could be a fire hazard in small wooden boat engine compartment.
    Jeff
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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Another detail is that a turbo needs quite a bit of oil to cool and lubricate it.
    It will be say an 1/4" id line going directly from the oil pump through the turbo directly back to the oil pan. Is your oil pump large enough for this additional volume?

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    I had an Albin AD2 in my Cheoy Lee. A very dependable and strong running engine. I sometimes ran the engine wide open for 12 hours a day, when motoring against a current. I rebuilt mine, but it probably didn't really need rebuilt after 30 years. Parts are still available from Sweden. Books are available online, at the Albin website. The fuel pump timing can be adjusted slightly with the mounting screws. It's also possible to advance or retard the pump drive gear 1 tooth. I cleaned and adjusted the injectors myself. Easy engine to work on.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kudzu View Post
    I hate when people state the obvious in forums, but I thought I would break my rule and do it anyway just in case. :-)

    Sounds you do have a grasp on what your doing. But the turbo will get very hot and as far as I know you can't water cool one, the hotter they are the better they work. Never really thought about it but it could be a fire hazard in small wooden boat engine compartment.
    I've been learning that lesson with the stainless exhaust I used to plumb in my standpipe in my cutter (Kubota powered). Wrapping the pipes and more importantly, using Aluminum heat reflectors have bee necessary to keep nearby timbers from char-ring.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Another detail is that a turbo needs quite a bit of oil to cool and lubricate it.
    It will be say an 1/4" id line going directly from the oil pump through the turbo directly back to the oil pan. Is your oil pump large enough for this additional volume?
    Good point. I've added about a gallon of fuel capacity in my Kubota-auxiliary for my cutter just by the enourmous truck filters I put between the tank and my injection pump. Using the same approach for the turbo's oil supply will add some capacity as will a heat exchanger. I like the idea of keeping the turbo's oil supply separate from engine oil but of course that requires a separate pump, tank, and filter system.

    A steel engine box could be both sound and firewall as well as a handy place to mount all this hardware. Lots of choices when the hull will be designed around the engine.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by okawbow View Post
    I had an Albin AD2 in my Cheoy Lee. A very dependable and strong running engine. I sometimes ran the engine wide open for 12 hours a day, when motoring against a current. I rebuilt mine, but it probably didn't really need rebuilt after 30 years. Parts are still available from Sweden. Books are available online, at the Albin website. The fuel pump timing can be adjusted slightly with the mounting screws. It's also possible to advance or retard the pump drive gear 1 tooth. I cleaned and adjusted the injectors myself. Easy engine to work on.

    I was losing oil pressure on mine so put it in mothballs. It was so beautifully made I just had to keep it. Cast Iron is a wonderful thing. When I took the gearbox off the bell housing, there wasn't a spot of rust on the internal with what appeared to be a no-gasket metal to metal sealing surface.... Nice stuff!

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    Good point. I've added about a gallon of fuel capacity in my Kubota-auxiliary for my cutter just by the enourmous truck filters I put between the tank and my injection pump. Using the same approach for the turbo's oil supply will add some capacity as will a heat exchanger. I like the idea of keeping the turbo's oil supply separate from engine oil but of course that requires a separate pump, tank, and filter system.

    I perhaps phrased my question improperly, adding volume to the sump will not be the issue, it will be gallons/liters per minute delivered at the working pressure of the engine with the added clearance of the turbo charger. How many gallons of oil, delivered at what pressure, are required for the turbo you will select, vs. the capacity of your existing oil pump? Most engine oil pumps are modest little things able to provide adequate pressure for the extreme end of normal wear clearances, but not much more. With most engines, once the oil clearances reach their extreme limits the pump does not usually have the capacity to maintain adequate pressure. Which is a clue that the engine is reaching the designed wear limits.

    Cooling the oil will be another, different, issue.

    (As soon as those enormous fuel filters see one teaspoon of air they are useless as a reservior).

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kudzu View Post
    When you start cramming more air into the cylinder, which is what a turbo does, your going to have increase the amount of fuel or you will have a very lean burn. That could quickly fry an engine, at least a gasoline engine and I assume diesel is no different.......
    A diesel engine is very very different - the assumption is completely wrong.

    In a traditional (non turbo) diesel the torque is modulated by varying the amount of fuel while keeping the amount of air constant - in effect the diesel runs very very lean which accounts for their part throttle economy.

    In a gasoline engine the torque is modulated by varying the mass of the air ingested and adjusting the fuel to maintain the Fuel air ratio needed for a controlled burn.
    Complicated problems usually have simple solutions - which are almost always wrong.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    This brings me back to the time (maybe 40 odd years ago) when I fitted a vacuum power brake booster to a large diesel road grader - LOL

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    With an alternate firing parallel twin the exhaust pulses would only be once per revolution. How would that factor into turbo longevity considering the low RPM of the engine in question? Would the turbo respond well to pulses of exhaust rather than an even flow or would this even matter?

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Good point Garold.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Garold View Post
    With an alternate firing parallel twin the exhaust pulses would only be once per revolution. How would that factor into turbo longevity considering the low RPM of the engine in question? Would the turbo respond well to pulses of exhaust rather than an even flow or would this even matter?
    I think the answer will be found in a very small and light turbo. This is a 1 liter engine. Honeywell makes turbos for engines displacing between 0.8L and 3.0L in their "Small Wastegate Turbo", a few of which are specifically for 2 cylinder diesels. The number of cylinders seems to be less important than the average exhaust gas flow rate.

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Found this little system on Ebay for Quads and other engines from 160cc to 900...


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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Here's another for (diesel) engines from 800-1500cc....


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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    An area of concern is the water pump. The water pump seal can fail and allow water to trickle into the engine, eeekk. This is what happened to me; you can see the water in the picture. It can be rebuilt with new seals. All the parts are available on albin website:



    My Albin:

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by zertgold View Post
    An area of concern is the water pump. The water pump seal can fail and allow water to trickle into the engine, eeekk. This is what happened to me; you can see the water in the picture. It can be rebuilt with new seals. All the parts are available on albin website:



    My Albin:
    I forgot how bone-jarringly loud my AD-2 was until I saw your video. Mine was hardmounted with no isolators directly forward and beneath the cockpit. The noise was a annoying as trying to sleep across the street from a biker bar on a friday night... yikes...


    Note to self, Isolate that Albin on the next install and place in a sound-proofed steel engine room.....

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    Default Re: TurboCharging a Normally Aspirated Marine Diesel (Albin AD-2)

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Diesel engines are less flexible than gas engines. You are better off using a motor designed for your intended applicati
    I agree. Diesel engines with turbo charging have cylinder heads with better metal and the valve guides,piston rings and all related parts are upgraded to take the stresses. Read the VW shop manual for their turbo diesels.
    They have better oil jets on the engine block that spray on the bottom inside of the piston skirts.
    They also have a special sheet metal baffle over the cam for better oil control over the cam because of the added heat.
    The head studs are also made better.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

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