tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

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  • stromborg
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2010
    • 6324

    #16
    Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Originally posted by John C. Hall
    I'm looking for an alternative to the wishbone or push pull steering for my ness yawl that I'm currently building. I'm thinking of some sort of cable steering arrangement connected to a normal tiller just forward of the mizzen. Any ideas
    The question nobody has asked yet: What are you trying to achieve with an alternative steering method?
    Steve

    If you would have a good boat, be a good guy when you build her - honest, careful, patient, strong.
    H.A. Calahan

    Comment

    • P.I. Stazzer-Newt
      obnoxiously persistent.
      • Jan 2005
      • 26007

      #17
      Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

      Have you seen the whipstaff setup - as used on the Fairey Atalanta?
      I'd much rather lay in my bunk all freakin day lookin at Youtube videos .

      Comment

      • sailoar
        unbalanced lug
        • Jun 2010
        • 463

        #18
        Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

        Originally posted by Binnacle Bat
        Exactly when in the 18th century did Gill start making sailing gloves?
        And now I understand the Rump Parliament victory - they covered their rumps with camo trousers!

        Comment

        • wtarzia
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2007
          • 2104

          #19
          Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

          I switched to a P/P to get around the mizzen on my outrigger canoe. My first cruise with it resulted in a knock down when I pushed instead of pulled. But after that lesson I got used to it (and I am one of those people who has left/right problems generally). As Ian did (above), I had to gear it down (I did that with a longer yoke after looking at the yoke on CLC's new-ish sailing dory): ~12 inches proved tiring and twitchy, but ~18-20 inches was just right, and slow enough in steering rate to give me that extra half second I needed to correct a wrong push/pull. The only thing I don't like about a P/P is that I do not think I am as steady with it as I am with a tiller. But it does accomodate just about any position I want to take in the cockpit. When I paddle a ways, I can bungee the pole so it functions as a trim device that stays out of the way of paddling. So far worth it. -- Wade

          Comment

          • Thorne
            Like my hat?
            • Aug 2005
            • 16414

            #20
            Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

            As bass-ackwards as a push-pull tiller is, I find it easier to learn (and teach) rope steering, as you **always** pull the line on the side / direction you wish to go. Ian's system as described above seems very well thought out, and others here have come up with various ways to run a continuous and tensioned steering line around the sides and under the center thwart. As long as you can comfortably reach it from all the primary seating / hiking locations, it should work fine.

            As for all the flack from the Peanut Gallery, they obviously don't know what they're talking about. Gil was a supplier to the RN in the 1780's, but full issue of the gloves to sailors has no proven evidence until 1797 or so. The camo shorts were issued by Lord Saye & Seal's Regimente of Foote in the 1640's but only for certain Dragoon units stationed in the Forest of Dean, dealing with both Royalist and Clubmen opponents. So there!
            "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
            Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

            Comment

            • kenjamin
              Senior Member
              • May 2005
              • 3504

              #21
              Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

              Don't worry about the Peanut Gallery, Thorne, no matter what they say about the rest of your outfit, one thing's for certain – they gotta like that hat!!!

              As for the push pull tiller, that's what I use on my Caledonia Yawl. It took me quite a while to get used to it but it does work great after you get past the learning curve.

              Last edited by kenjamin; 08-29-2013, 08:13 AM.

              Comment

              • OldBawley
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2011
                • 163

                #22
                Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

                Not of any use for a Ness yawl, but this is how I did it.


                When I bought the then 41 year old boat, there was just one mast, the boat was manly used for shrimp fishing on the Belgian sandbanks. The tiller was extremely long, so the fisherman could sit under the dog house to steer.
                Some years later I obtained an article concerning our yacht, some pictures showed the boat as a yawl. Must have been 1947.
                I found a little mast originating from a canal barge ( Front mast supporting the boom to swing on land when moored some distance from the shore )
                I used that mast to build a yawl, just to have a try. It looked fine, so now I had to cut that long tiller.
                Our intention was to take the boat trough the French canals to the Med, so I was in for very long hours of steering the boat under engine. The rudder is huge, one needs power, so I made a wheel steering. Made everything myself except for the wheel. Even the trough deck blocks to take the steering cable ware made by myself.
                Its the same steering as used on the Dutch sailing barges.
                The wheel turns its 1” shaft who is mounted under the after deck. Around that shaft are 10 windings of 5 mm kevlar rope. That rope is connected to a 4 mm SS steering cable who passes over the blocks to the deck. A quick coupling plate connects the cable with the short tiller.
                Sailing, it is the auto pilot who steers via the same coupling on the two feet long tiller.
                Manoeuvring I can use the wheel or the tiller. Just a flick of the finger to disconnect the steering cable. I prefer the short tiller, the wheel needs 6 revs to take the tiller from one side to the other.
                Indirect but huge power, handy when steering by hand on the rivers of France.
                In 1947, a tilted worm steering did the same job, a iron tiller passing through the stern.
                Only once had an accident when a guest steered the wrong way because he was used to stand behind the wheel , on our boat one stands or sits next to the wheel.

                Comment

                • JimConlin
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2000
                  • 10683

                  #23
                  Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

                  Damfino's steering system:





                  The blue lines are 1/4" amsteel blue dyneema. They are inexpensive, clean, lightweight and low stretch. They're holding up well.

                  Comment

                  • kiwiboatbuilder
                    Junior Member
                    • Aug 2012
                    • 9

                    #24
                    Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

                    Hi, you could try a push-pull like I used in my Beth sailing canoe, I laminated a curve in it so it would fit around the mizzen. Some pics in my thread here:
                    <font color="white">&amp;nbsp &amp;nbsp &amp;nbsp &amp;nbsp &amp;nbsp &amp;nbsp </font> <h3>And, you can click <a href="http://forum.woodenboat.com/forumdisplay.php?12-Archived-Reference-Threads">Archived Reference Threads</a></h3>

                    Works pretty well for me.
                    Cheers Rich.

                    Comment

                    • keyhavenpotterer
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 4868

                      #25
                      Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

                      Iain's Haiku has a tiller to rudder connection. You could ask him for that sheet, if you wanted to keep it in the family.




                      Ed
                      Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-04-2013, 01:18 PM.

                      Comment

                      • keith66
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2007
                        • 551

                        #26
                        Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

                        Originally posted by James McMullen
                        Uh-oh! That's even more invasive and inconvenient than I had thought with that tiller sweeping through and clogging up an incredible amount of useful space. You're not even going to be able to pass behind the boom when tacking--you'll have to duck under it and crawl around in front just like all the poor saps with one-sticker rigs. And it's utterly in the way of the perfect place to sit when you're broad-reaching or running, or for when you have several crew.

                        The example above seems carefully done, but I think it's awfully misguided for the type of boat we're talking about here. This isn't a ballasted keel boat where you just park your ass in one place to steer from. This is a lightweight thoroughbred dinghy-type sailer where you will be actively and constantly shifting your weight and placement on different points of sail. That tiller arrangement eliminates far too many options.

                        I strongly urge you to seek out and actually sit in a Ness Yawl or one of her sisters like an AT, ST, or CY before you go engineering up a fruitless over-complexity like this so you can check out the ergonomics for yourself. There will be at least half a dozen assorted varieties showing up in Port Townsend next week, if you're near the area.
                        The Ness yawl in the photo was built by my late father in lancashire, think it was around 1996, He got too old to sail her & she sat in his barn for twenty years. He gave her to me & i sailed her for a while. She was originally fitted with the wishbone tiller but i found it got in the way constantly & basically ruled out using the afterdeck to furl the mizzen.
                        I fitted the tiller & drag link steering in the photo. Stainless steel ball joints at the ends of the link.
                        Far from being over complicated it was a great success, the tiller's heel fitting is hinged so can be simply lifted to any angle you want while sailing. It could be folded up against the mast when you were anchored & then did not get in the way at all.
                        The outboard was a small yamaha malta & the tiller cleared it easily if lifted a bit. Most of the time i left the engine at home because i like rowing!
                        The set up worked very well & was a massive improvement over the wishbone arrangement. As for push pull tillers i have tried one on a stretched Cosine wherry & couldnt get on with it.

                        Comment

                        • Thorne
                          Like my hat?
                          • Aug 2005
                          • 16414

                          #27
                          Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

                          There's another option that I just discovered when I bought my Caledonia Yawl -- bellcrank steering. The name seems to be unofficial and is the term for the linkage, which is mostly found on old cars and aircraft. Works great!

                          Also discussed in this thread, page 1 - http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ghlight=tiller

                          Here's the best image I know of -
                          "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
                          Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

                          Comment

                          • Chip-skiff
                            Wolves Without Borders
                            • Jan 2008
                            • 22781

                            #28
                            Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

                            After I added a sealed rear compartment to my Bolger Gypsy, the tiller had to be rather long, and swept over the rear seat, rendering it useless. She's narrow and quite tender, which keeps me from sitting on the edges of the cockpit. Tried a push-pull stick and didn't like it much, so I built a rope loop setup like the one on Herreshoff's Coquina.



                            The advantage is that I can steer from anyplace in the cockpit, with either hand. The disadvantages are that it's counter-intuitive: friends who've tried it have nearly dumped. The other bit I dislike is the mushy feel. With a solid tiller, you can really sense what the waterflow is doing over the rudder.

                            Comment

                            • john welsford
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2002
                              • 7755

                              #29
                              Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

                              Originally posted by drum365
                              I've seen some linkage arrangements. I think John Welsford uses a rope linkage on his "Walkabout" design. This is a solid linkage from John Guzzwell's "Trekka."

                              Thats right, it works pretty well, but I've refined it somewhat for Long Steps in that I'm using solid pushpull rods with dropnose pins to connect the after ends onto the rudder head bellcrank. Not that if you go down this route, it pays to have the axis of the connection pivots exactly the same relative to the pivot of the bellcrank at each end, and the bellcranks the same length.
                              I'm using threaded rod with the barrel of a rigging screw for adjustment, thats one each side so the 6mm rods are pulling rather than pushing.

                              While the boats not done yet, there are two builders who have their boats close to done, and the steering set up, seems to work ok, and my mockup is light and without any noticeable slack or friction.

                              Very like "Damfino" in Post #23, the system is in a tunnel under the after deck so James McMullen can sit up there if he wants. He'll be here in NZ in a bit over a month anyway, so, watch for his comments.

                              John Welsford
                              An expert is but a beginner with experience.

                              Comment

                              • Chip-skiff
                                Wolves Without Borders
                                • Jan 2008
                                • 22781

                                #30
                                Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

                                [QUOTE=Chip-skiff;5743860]After I added a sealed rear compartment to my Bolger Gypsy, the tiller had to be rather long, and swept over the rear seat, rendering it useless. She's narrow and quite tender, which keeps me from sitting on the edges of the cockpit. Tried a push-pull stick and didn't like it much, so I built a rope loop setup like the one on Herreshoff's Coquina.



                                The advantage is that I can steer from anyplace in the cockpit, with either hand. The disadvantages are that it's counter-intuitive: friends who've tried it have nearly dumped. The other bit I dislike is the mushy feel. With a solid tiller (or a rigid link), you can really sense what the waterflow is doing over the rudder.

                                Comment

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