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Thread: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

  1. #1

    Default tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    I'm looking for an alternative to the wishbone or push pull steering for my ness yawl that I'm currently building. I'm thinking of some sort of cable steering arrangement connected to a normal tiller just forward of the mizzen. Any ideas

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    The push pull works great. I just built an Arctic Tern and it took about three sails to mostly get accustomed to the different technique. But, if you really don't want the P/P you could study the rope steering scenario on the Coquina.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    I've seen some linkage arrangements. I think John Welsford uses a rope linkage on his "Walkabout" design. This is a solid linkage from John Guzzwell's "Trekka."

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    I find the Trekka example above to be a gross violation of the KISS principle. I would start out with the push/pull setup, even though the learning curve would be steep to start with. On a boat with a transom I would have no compunctions about stepping the mizzen off center right aft, so it didn't interfere with the sweep of the tiller (not an option on a double ender). I do see the wishbone/S-curve tillers as awkward and in the way, especially on a steeply raked sternpost. I like the idea of the Coquina continuous loop, but it also starts to get complicated.

    Set up your rudder-head so that it will accept a variety of tillers and linkages, suited to push/pull, wishbone, Coquina etc., and go out and play.
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    I find the Trekka example above to be a gross violation of the KISS principle.
    That's the same basic principle successfully employed on thousands of iceboats (including my own) which at times can be rather extreme sailing, so I wouldn't have a problem with it.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Many of us find the advantages of the push-pull so great for small boats where you need to be able to move your weight around that we prefer it even on boats with one mast. But to each cat his own rat.

    I do not think you will be able to sail your Ness Yawl to its fullest potential if you do not incorporate a steering system that will let you get your weight midships and up on the rail when necessary, so make sure you incorporate a hiking stick if you must add the complication of a linkage tiller right in the middle of prime cockpit real estate.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    I use rope steering with a yoke tiller and really like it. There are of course disadvantages, primarily lack of feedback that you get with a stick tiller, and that steering is opposite that of a tiller so new helmsmen do a few scary 360's with water pouring over the rails before they figure out the system.

    Yoke tillers / rope steering were supposedly popular with Italian fishermen in the SF Bay area, as it let them sit nearly anywhere in the boat to steer. In light air I've sat backwards leaning against the mast and steered -- very nice!

    Give it a try -- all you need is a yoke tiller, a few blocks and some line. Make the yoke tiller to attach the same way the regular tiller did, or at least to the same rudder head, and you haven't lost anything.



    Last edited by Thorne; 08-27-2013 at 09:30 PM.
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Lillie from Tom Dunderdale / Paul Fisher .

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    That's the same basic principle successfully employed on thousands of iceboats (including my own) which at times can be rather extreme sailing, so I wouldn't have a problem with it.
    Todd

    Most of my sailing is day sailing off a trailer. One of my favorite spots has a very shallow ramp (helps keep out oversized outboards). When I launch, the mast is stepped, sails bent on, and rudder still inside the boat. after launch and parking, I row or scull out to deep enough water, drop the centerboard, rig the rudder, slide the tiller home, and raise the sails. Coming in is the reverse. A plumb transom, and generous bearing aft make this easy. That's why I like simple steering.

    I don't know what Trekka's underwater profile looks like, but she has four stays on the mizzen, so there is no reason that the mizzen couldn't be deck stepped, like the Salcombe yawls, and the tiller run under the after deck, and curved up above the seats.

    Ice boats are another story, as the steering runner, forward or aft, can be a long ways from the crew, and shallow ramps are not an issue.

    Allan
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Thorne

    Exactly when in the 18th century did Gill start making sailing gloves?

    Allan
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    A Ness Yawl with a fixed connection around the mizzen:-



    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-28-2013 at 05:10 AM.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    I don't have pix of the rope steering I made for Leeward (18' gunning dory) but it was the best.

    The basic idea was a steering rope that went just under the gunnels through little guide blocks crossing the boat up just abaft the mast. This was to allow one handed push/pull steering anywhere in the boat.

    The basic problem was that with a yoke or tiller attachment, the steering line becomes slack somewhere in the rudder's turn. Basic geometry. So I fitted a small (6" diameter) pulley wheel from an old washing machine. Now I could end the ropes around that and tension the whole thing to take out any slack.

    The next problem was that with just a 6" leverage - think of this as a 6" tiller - the thing was a little hard to hold and seriously twitchey. So I geared it down by having the part around the pulley wheel go back to a couple of cheek blocks and then forward a foot or so and spliced a small block to each end to a small pulley. I ran the actual steering line from a fixed point on the gunnel back to the block, then forward and around the boat back to the other side's little pulley and forward to a fixed point on the other gunnel. Now I had push-pull with a 2:1 advantage.

    I arranged the way the rope passed around the pulley wheel such that the whole rope made intuitive sense if you thought of it as a steering wheel. So the boat turned port if you pushed ahead on the starboard side or pulled back on the port side. And starboard turn was done pulling back on the starboard side or pushing ahead on the port.

    The final winkle was to put a small cam cleat on each side that the steering line could be placed in. I aimed each cleat such that when clipped in it resisted weather helm for that tack. On the starboard tack that meant holding the steering rope from shifting aft.

    Leeward had incredibly sensitive balance and I found it convenient to lock-in a little weather helm and control fine directional control with sail trim and my body position.

    When rowing in a cross wind, I'd set the steering rope on both sides such that Leeward would track easily and straight across the wind and waves.

    The problem with all rope to yoke arrangements is that for control you must use two hands. This system gives you control with one hand anywhere in the boat.

    Let me know if you need a drawing.

    G'luck

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    A Ness Yawl with a fixed connection around the mizzen:-



    Ed
    Uh-oh! That's even more invasive and inconvenient than I had thought with that tiller sweeping through and clogging up an incredible amount of useful space. You're not even going to be able to pass behind the boom when tacking--you'll have to duck under it and crawl around in front just like all the poor saps with one-sticker rigs. And it's utterly in the way of the perfect place to sit when you're broad-reaching or running, or for when you have several crew.

    The example above seems carefully done, but I think it's awfully misguided for the type of boat we're talking about here. This isn't a ballasted keel boat where you just park your ass in one place to steer from. This is a lightweight thoroughbred dinghy-type sailer where you will be actively and constantly shifting your weight and placement on different points of sail. That tiller arrangement eliminates far too many options.

    I strongly urge you to seek out and actually sit in a Ness Yawl or one of her sisters like an AT, ST, or CY before you go engineering up a fruitless over-complexity like this so you can check out the ergonomics for yourself. There will be at least half a dozen assorted varieties showing up in Port Townsend next week, if you're near the area.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Binnacle Bat View Post
    Thorne

    Exactly when in the 18th century did Gill start making sailing gloves?

    Allan
    It's not commonly known... but my Twin is actually a Time Traveler. He went forward into the 20th century to get those gloves. Mum's the word, dearie!
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    A Ness Yawl with a fixed connection around the mizzen:-


    Ed
    it also looks like you'd have to lift up the tiller to clear the motorhead of the outboard that will live in that well to port.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by John C. Hall View Post
    I'm looking for an alternative to the wishbone or push pull steering for my ness yawl that I'm currently building. I'm thinking of some sort of cable steering arrangement connected to a normal tiller just forward of the mizzen. Any ideas
    The question nobody has asked yet: What are you trying to achieve with an alternative steering method?
    Steve

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Have you seen the whipstaff setup - as used on the Fairey Atalanta?
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Binnacle Bat View Post
    Exactly when in the 18th century did Gill start making sailing gloves?
    And now I understand the Rump Parliament victory - they covered their rumps with camo trousers!

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    I switched to a P/P to get around the mizzen on my outrigger canoe. My first cruise with it resulted in a knock down when I pushed instead of pulled. But after that lesson I got used to it (and I am one of those people who has left/right problems generally). As Ian did (above), I had to gear it down (I did that with a longer yoke after looking at the yoke on CLC's new-ish sailing dory): ~12 inches proved tiring and twitchy, but ~18-20 inches was just right, and slow enough in steering rate to give me that extra half second I needed to correct a wrong push/pull. The only thing I don't like about a P/P is that I do not think I am as steady with it as I am with a tiller. But it does accomodate just about any position I want to take in the cockpit. When I paddle a ways, I can bungee the pole so it functions as a trim device that stays out of the way of paddling. So far worth it. -- Wade

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    As bass-ackwards as a push-pull tiller is, I find it easier to learn (and teach) rope steering, as you **always** pull the line on the side / direction you wish to go. Ian's system as described above seems very well thought out, and others here have come up with various ways to run a continuous and tensioned steering line around the sides and under the center thwart. As long as you can comfortably reach it from all the primary seating / hiking locations, it should work fine.

    As for all the flack from the Peanut Gallery, they obviously don't know what they're talking about. Gil was a supplier to the RN in the 1780's, but full issue of the gloves to sailors has no proven evidence until 1797 or so. The camo shorts were issued by Lord Saye & Seal's Regimente of Foote in the 1640's but only for certain Dragoon units stationed in the Forest of Dean, dealing with both Royalist and Clubmen opponents. So there!
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Don't worry about the Peanut Gallery, Thorne, no matter what they say about the rest of your outfit, one thing's for certain – they gotta like that hat!!!

    As for the push pull tiller, that's what I use on my Caledonia Yawl. It took me quite a while to get used to it but it does work great after you get past the learning curve.

    Last edited by kenjamin; 08-29-2013 at 08:13 AM.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Not of any use for a Ness yawl, but this is how I did it.


    When I bought the then 41 year old boat, there was just one mast, the boat was manly used for shrimp fishing on the Belgian sandbanks. The tiller was extremely long, so the fisherman could sit under the dog house to steer.
    Some years later I obtained an article concerning our yacht, some pictures showed the boat as a yawl. Must have been 1947.
    I found a little mast originating from a canal barge ( Front mast supporting the boom to swing on land when moored some distance from the shore )
    I used that mast to build a yawl, just to have a try. It looked fine, so now I had to cut that long tiller.
    Our intention was to take the boat trough the French canals to the Med, so I was in for very long hours of steering the boat under engine. The rudder is huge, one needs power, so I made a wheel steering. Made everything myself except for the wheel. Even the trough deck blocks to take the steering cable ware made by myself.
    Its the same steering as used on the Dutch sailing barges.
    The wheel turns its 1” shaft who is mounted under the after deck. Around that shaft are 10 windings of 5 mm kevlar rope. That rope is connected to a 4 mm SS steering cable who passes over the blocks to the deck. A quick coupling plate connects the cable with the short tiller.
    Sailing, it is the auto pilot who steers via the same coupling on the two feet long tiller.
    Manoeuvring I can use the wheel or the tiller. Just a flick of the finger to disconnect the steering cable. I prefer the short tiller, the wheel needs 6 revs to take the tiller from one side to the other.
    Indirect but huge power, handy when steering by hand on the rivers of France.
    In 1947, a tilted worm steering did the same job, a iron tiller passing through the stern.
    Only once had an accident when a guest steered the wrong way because he was used to stand behind the wheel , on our boat one stands or sits next to the wheel.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Damfino's steering system:





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  24. #24

    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Hi, you could try a push-pull like I used in my Beth sailing canoe, I laminated a curve in it so it would fit around the mizzen. Some pics in my thread here:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...canoe-finished
    Works pretty well for me.
    Cheers Rich.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Iain's Haiku has a tiller to rudder connection. You could ask him for that sheet, if you wanted to keep it in the family.

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images...082012062.jpg/


    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 09-04-2013 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Uh-oh! That's even more invasive and inconvenient than I had thought with that tiller sweeping through and clogging up an incredible amount of useful space. You're not even going to be able to pass behind the boom when tacking--you'll have to duck under it and crawl around in front just like all the poor saps with one-sticker rigs. And it's utterly in the way of the perfect place to sit when you're broad-reaching or running, or for when you have several crew.

    The example above seems carefully done, but I think it's awfully misguided for the type of boat we're talking about here. This isn't a ballasted keel boat where you just park your ass in one place to steer from. This is a lightweight thoroughbred dinghy-type sailer where you will be actively and constantly shifting your weight and placement on different points of sail. That tiller arrangement eliminates far too many options.

    I strongly urge you to seek out and actually sit in a Ness Yawl or one of her sisters like an AT, ST, or CY before you go engineering up a fruitless over-complexity like this so you can check out the ergonomics for yourself. There will be at least half a dozen assorted varieties showing up in Port Townsend next week, if you're near the area.
    The Ness yawl in the photo was built by my late father in lancashire, think it was around 1996, He got too old to sail her & she sat in his barn for twenty years. He gave her to me & i sailed her for a while. She was originally fitted with the wishbone tiller but i found it got in the way constantly & basically ruled out using the afterdeck to furl the mizzen.
    I fitted the tiller & drag link steering in the photo. Stainless steel ball joints at the ends of the link.
    Far from being over complicated it was a great success, the tiller's heel fitting is hinged so can be simply lifted to any angle you want while sailing. It could be folded up against the mast when you were anchored & then did not get in the way at all.
    The outboard was a small yamaha malta & the tiller cleared it easily if lifted a bit. Most of the time i left the engine at home because i like rowing!
    The set up worked very well & was a massive improvement over the wishbone arrangement. As for push pull tillers i have tried one on a stretched Cosine wherry & couldnt get on with it.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    There's another option that I just discovered when I bought my Caledonia Yawl -- bellcrank steering. The name seems to be unofficial and is the term for the linkage, which is mostly found on old cars and aircraft. Works great!

    Also discussed in this thread, page 1 - http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ghlight=tiller

    Here's the best image I know of -
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    After I added a sealed rear compartment to my Bolger Gypsy, the tiller had to be rather long, and swept over the rear seat, rendering it useless. She's narrow and quite tender, which keeps me from sitting on the edges of the cockpit. Tried a push-pull stick and didn't like it much, so I built a rope loop setup like the one on Herreshoff's Coquina.



    The advantage is that I can steer from anyplace in the cockpit, with either hand. The disadvantages are that it's counter-intuitive: friends who've tried it have nearly dumped. The other bit I dislike is the mushy feel. With a solid tiller, you can really sense what the waterflow is doing over the rudder.
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by drum365 View Post
    I've seen some linkage arrangements. I think John Welsford uses a rope linkage on his "Walkabout" design. This is a solid linkage from John Guzzwell's "Trekka."

    Thats right, it works pretty well, but I've refined it somewhat for Long Steps in that I'm using solid pushpull rods with dropnose pins to connect the after ends onto the rudder head bellcrank. Not that if you go down this route, it pays to have the axis of the connection pivots exactly the same relative to the pivot of the bellcrank at each end, and the bellcranks the same length.
    I'm using threaded rod with the barrel of a rigging screw for adjustment, thats one each side so the 6mm rods are pulling rather than pushing.

    While the boats not done yet, there are two builders who have their boats close to done, and the steering set up, seems to work ok, and my mockup is light and without any noticeable slack or friction.

    Very like "Damfino" in Post #23, the system is in a tunnel under the after deck so James McMullen can sit up there if he wants. He'll be here in NZ in a bit over a month anyway, so, watch for his comments.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    [QUOTE=Chip-skiff;5743860]After I added a sealed rear compartment to my Bolger Gypsy, the tiller had to be rather long, and swept over the rear seat, rendering it useless. She's narrow and quite tender, which keeps me from sitting on the edges of the cockpit. Tried a push-pull stick and didn't like it much, so I built a rope loop setup like the one on Herreshoff's Coquina.



    The advantage is that I can steer from anyplace in the cockpit, with either hand. The disadvantages are that it's counter-intuitive: friends who've tried it have nearly dumped. The other bit I dislike is the mushy feel. With a solid tiller (or a rigid link), you can really sense what the waterflow is doing over the rudder.
    We're merely mammals. Let's misbehave! —Cole Porter

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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    [QUOTE=Chip-skiff;5744153]
    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    ... The disadvantages are that it's counter-intuitive: friends who've tried it have nearly dumped. The other bit I dislike is the mushy feel. With a solid tiller (or a rigid link), you can really sense what the waterflow is doing over the rudder.
    Yes I had the same problem with letting dinghy sailors handle the rope steering on my dory skiff. It often involved doing some screaming 360's with water pouring over the rail until they figured out that it was opposite the way tiller steering works... ;-)
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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    Default Re: tiller alternatives for a ness yawl

    [QUOTE=Thorne;5744348]
    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post

    Yes I had the same problem with letting dinghy sailors handle the rope steering on my dory skiff. It often involved doing some screaming 360's with water pouring over the rail until they figured out that it was opposite the way tiller steering works... ;-)
    HEY... that was only the once... <G>
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