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Thread: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

  1. #36
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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Lots of yawl rigs on trad UK working craft,and many with bowsprit and jib, ability to sail on any point with mansail either brailed or dropped to work nets or lines. Thats why i like the misainer rig on Ebihen posted earlier,its very versatile.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    I guess this is good evidence for not posting after a couple of pints of Guinness... Ha. I'm aware of some of the various traditional European types that have the lug yawl rig, and think it makes perfect sense for a fishing vessel - especially with 'sprit and jib. I guess what I was questioning is why North American types didn't adopt the yawl as a working rig. I look at, say, a Hampton Boat or Crotch Island Pinky, and can't help but think that a yawl with lug or sprit main would have been an extremely good rig, opening up the deck while keeping the mizzen up. Here's one the Apprenticeshop built.



    Maybe the answer lies along the same path as why the various lug rigs weren't adopted widely in North America...

    The 'bourcet-malet' lug yawl rig for the Ebihen 16 really is appealing, and this view give an idea of how something similar would have opened up the work area on the Hampton Boat above. Swap the lugs for sprits, and this could have been a historic rig along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. and Canada.



    James, you make a good point about adopting a workboat to recreational use and needlessly retaining certain characteristics. It's something I'll give close consideration to if building from historic lines. Certainly, no fish bins. Ha.

    Thanks for the input. Interesting discussion.

    R
    Last edited by RyanGillnet; 07-29-2013 at 03:33 PM. Reason: Speling! (Ha.)

  3. #38
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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Thats another fine shot of Ebihen,thanks for posting it Ryan.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanGillnet View Post
    Combined with its advantages in sailing and maneuvering, I'm curious why the yawl wasn't adopted for two-masted workboats. Any thoughts, gang?
    If I'm not mistaken, and if I am someone please correct me, the word ketch is Middle English for catch, so ketches were originally fishing boats. As I understand it the crews would drop the mainsail in order to work the nets while the mizzen was set in order to keep the bow pointed into the wind and waves. Apparently the more forward placement of the ketch mizzen facilitated this maneuver whereas presumably a yawl configuration would allow the bow to fall off.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Prior to the incredibly easy worldwide dissemination and cross-fertilization of knowledge via the Internet, or even just from the available books and magazines of the recent past, I find it all too easy to accept that tradition, inertia, fashion, provincial tastes and simple ignorance of all the other options available might well have constrained local types to whatever was already locally common and already understood by an insular and perhaps even only semi-literate cohort of fishermen. And there may well have been specific local variations that were specifically useful for particular areas, catches, or harvest methods--or were at least "good enough", which is quite honestly all that many poor working boatmen required.

    But ain't none of that which applies any more for modern recreational boats. And they're all subject to your own particular goals and preferences of course too. I'm not all that surprised that the advances of the lug rig and the yawl configuration didn't penetrate every backwater and tideway in the 19th century any more than I'm surprised at how it's now becoming more and more popular these days when it's so easy to learn about here in the 21st.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanGillnet View Post


    Kickass.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Kickass.
    Ain't it though? If I can break loose from the idea of building a Noman's Land Boat or Crotch Is. Pinky or other North American type, a carvel or timber clinker Ebihen with that lug yawl rig is a real possibility.

    James McMullen - future author of Sail and Oar Manifesto. Thanks for the considered comments. More food for thought.

    R

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    [QUOTE=Dusty Yevsky;3856625]If I'm not mistaken, and if I am someone please correct me, the word ketch is Middle English for catch, so ketches were originally fishing boats. As I understand it the crews would drop the mainsail in order to work the nets while the mizzen was set in order to keep the bow pointed into the wind and waves. Apparently the more forward placement of the ketch mizzen facilitated this maneuver whereas presumably a yawl configuration would allow the bow to fall off.[/QUOT
    Ahhh - yes you are mistaken, or at least guilty of vast oversimplification. Moving the center of effort of the sail area aft pivots the bow into the wind, however this is achieved. In reference to certain working craft, maybe the best possible combination of sail balance, horsepower, and space utilization evolved over time, or maybe, in some cases the operators just never got around to inventing a better mousetrap.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    [QUOTE=Eric Hvalsoe;3856725 Moving the center of effort of the sail area aft pivots the bow into the wind, however this is achieved. In reference to certain working craft, maybe the best possible combination of sail balance, horsepower, and space utilization evolved over time, or maybe, in some cases the operators just never got around to inventing a better mousetrap.[/QUOTE]

    Oops, I'm guilty of posting without thinking. Yes, of course moving the mizzen aft would increase the tendency to point into the wind. The subject of traditional boat design had always fascinated me and I wonder if any scholar has done serious research on the whys of traditional working boat designs. Anyone know of a book on the subject? Sorry for the thread drift......

  10. #45
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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    In reference to certain working craft, maybe the best possible combination of sail balance, horsepower, and space utilization evolved over time, or maybe, in some cases the operators just never got around to inventing a better mousetrap.
    Well stated, Eric.

    R

  11. #46
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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Yevsky View Post
    The subject of traditional boat design had always fascinated me and I wonder if any scholar has done serious research on the whys of traditional working boat designs. Anyone know of a book on the subject? Sorry for the thread drift......
    Well... from my research you really need to combine sources. Chapelle and others have written on vessel design, and often mention in the text as to why certain design elements evolved, such as the need for launching and recovering on a beach. But what I've found enlightening is researching both the 'where' and the 'how' of the type of fishing being done to understand some of the 'whys' of traditional working boat design. Fisheries reports and museums seem to be the best for this type of research, though there are a handful of texts about certain historic fisheries out there.

    Take the Columbia River or Bristol Bay gillnetters for an example. Once you see how a drift gillnet is used in capturing salmon, and you know what type of seas are common to Bristol Bay, and that the fleet was often towed to the grounds by a tender, the design elements of these double-enders starts to make sense. Understand the gear and the environment, understand the boat.



    Which is why I'm pondering why many of the Eastern small boat fisheries utilized a ketch rig instead of a yawl. A yawl would be especially handy for net or pot fishing. For handlining, however, I can see the mizzen on the sternpost of a yawl getting in the way if a cod or other groundfish wants to go to the other side of the boat. In a ketch with the mizzen forward, you can pretty much walk (scramble) the perimeter of the boat with you line under control and no need to maneuver around that rig on the stern. From what I've been able to learn about some of the ways in which fish were harvested, and in the environments in which they were fished for, the yawl makes a lot of sense in some cases. To me. With over 100 years of hindsight available, a fast internet connection, a romantic eye, and none of the economic realities that the fishermen or builders faced. Heh.

    R

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    No no, you're right, Ryan. Yawls are the best. It's pretty obvious once you've built as many boats as I have. And I wouldn't have had to build so damn many if I'd been a little quicker on the uptake and figured it out sooner.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel


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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Certainly similarities with a Hastings beach Lugger. Conditions on both sides of the English Channel were quite similar, with the French coast generally having a stronger tidal current. Fisherman were always part time traders and always quick to pick up on ideas that made their lives easier,or more profitable, so details that made boats faster often were copied from both sides. Interesting to see that very flat floored hull, Bolgers "Romp" design has exactly the same feature and has proven to be a good offshore boat, as well as able to dry out on a beach. Simple and effective rig, will try a version of that on the Mariette beach pram.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Yeah, I'm pretty fascinated by what I've been able to find on the bourcet-malet rig. They are very striking, and make a lot of sense for a workboat. If this rig was on a North American, double-ended, clinker-built shallop... well we'd be done with this discussion. As much as I'd really like to build a Crotch Island Pinky or Noman's Land Boat, I may have to search around the other side of the Atlantic. This rig really does something for me.

    If the Ebihen 16 can be built traditional lapstrake with a minimum of plywood boxes and epoxy... For whatever reason, the Ebihen 18 just isn't doing it for me. Such a different boat than the 16. I may need to write to Mssr. Vivier...

    R

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    No reason to use any plywood if you want to go completely trad, you can use the backbone and frame scantlings of the strip plank version,solid wood and laminated/bent frames. Always liked the Nomans Land Boat too, believe it needs quite a lot of ballast to bring it down,not such an easy task to therefore build in enough bouyancy to keep her afloat if swamped, but thats true of many,many open working boats.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanGillnet View Post
    Well... from my research you really need to combine sources. Chapelle and others have written on vessel design, and often mention in the text as to why certain design elements evolved, such as the need for launching and recovering on a beach. But what I've found enlightening is researching both the 'where' and the 'how' of the type of fishing being done to understand some of the 'whys' of traditional working boat design. Fisheries reports and museums seem to be the best for this type of research, though there are a handful of texts about certain historic fisheries out there.

    Take the Columbia River or Bristol Bay gillnetters for an example. Once you see how a drift gillnet is used in capturing salmon, and you know what type of seas are common to Bristol Bay, and that the fleet was often towed to the grounds by a tender, the design elements of these double-enders starts to make sense. Understand the gear and the environment, understand the boat.



    Which is why I'm pondering why many of the Eastern small boat fisheries utilized a ketch rig instead of a yawl. A yawl would be especially handy for net or pot fishing. For handlining, however, I can see the mizzen on the sternpost of a yawl getting in the way if a cod or other groundfish wants to go to the other side of the boat. In a ketch with the mizzen forward, you can pretty much walk (scramble) the perimeter of the boat with you line under control and no need to maneuver around that rig on the stern. From what I've been able to learn about some of the ways in which fish were harvested, and in the environments in which they were fished for, the yawl makes a lot of sense in some cases. To me. With over 100 years of hindsight available, a fast internet connection, a romantic eye, and none of the economic realities that the fishermen or builders faced. Heh.

    R
    Great thread and interesting speculation Ryan. Workboats are fascinating and inspiring. But unless you are actually 'working' the boat, I think they do not always convey themselves to recreational use. I suspect many people who think they want to row and sail a 20 footer, speaking particularly to the former function, are fooling themselves. Much less, a burdensome workboat type. How much capacity does a recreational boat need, and how much boat do you really want to push around? I encourage your interest in traditional construction. Go for it. Lapstrake for trailerability. Quality, stable materials. Lots of strakes make for minimal individual movement. Round bottom is the Cadillac of hull forms. I certainly agree that the yawl is a great open boat recreational rig. Now it is hard to imagine cruising single handed without it.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    No reason to use any plywood if you want to go completely trad, you can use the backbone and frame scantlings of the strip plank version,solid wood and laminated/bent frames. Always liked the Nomans Land Boat too, believe it needs quite a lot of ballast to bring it down,not such an easy task to therefore build in enough bouyancy to keep her afloat if swamped, but thats true of many,many open working boats.
    Good point on using the strip plank scantlings. I think Mr. Vivier is open to discussions and supplementing/customizing his plans for builders, but I'm fairly confident that I could do what I want with the plans for Ebihen as they are. I've also come to grips that building a 'replica' of a traditional workboat design isn't really practical right now. As Eric and James have pointed out, the traditional type are more burdensome and have features that just aren't needed in a recreational boat. It's the traditional building methods that I really desire, and a workboat look. I think the Ebihen meets a lot of my criteria, including and especially that lovely rig. (which I'd love to see on your beach pram!)

    I believe robert666 recently designed and modeled a similar fishing-type small lugger and was hoping he'd stop in for a comment.

    Eric, thanks for the encouragement on traditional building. My thoughts are lots of lapstrakes for trailering and dimensional stability, well bedded, and tight while dry so she doesn't need to take up. The boat won't ever be in the water long enough for swelling to damage fasteners or structural timbers. I think this can be done!

    R

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    I think Roberts lugger was around 2+ tons, but he was after a proper engineless fishing boat for working pots and nets. Small boats without engine can be used for fishing without a licence.

    There was a small clinker beach boat called "argonaught" that i posted on roberts thread, that may be some interest to you, there was a lines plan that you could scale to make offsets; similar hull to Ebihen.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    An email has gone off to M. Vivier with a few questions. I can see a timber clinker Ebihen 16 in my mind... bourcet-malet rig with tan barked sails, traditional workboat finish, maybe even a 'mustache'. Funny where one can end up when discussing plans here, eh? I think it was Yeardon's "Kickass" comment that really pushed me over to this design.

    Thanks for the considered advice, suggestion, and encouragement, gang.

    R

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanGillnet View Post
    An email has gone off to M. Vivier . . .a timber clinker Ebihen 16. . .
    Yeadon is right, of course. Now that is kickass indeed! Rock on, RyanGillnet! Can't wait to see her come together.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Thanks, James. I have friends in North Vancouver, Seattle, Friday Harbor, and on Vancouver Island, so in a few years this boat may end up for a trip to Salish Sea. It WILL be tough to drag the boat but leave the bamboo spey rods at home. PNW trips usually mean 10 days in March, chasing winter steelhead. Though my buddy in North Van seems to think a boat would allow access to previously unreachable coastal rivers.

    Since I have a path forward, maybe a few photos for inspiration are in order.

    Francois Vivier's Ebihen 16.


    An old postcard showing 'flobarts' going to sea.


    And a restored boat, flying that lovely bourcet-malet lug yawl rig.


    I think M. Vivier has really captured the spirit of the burdensome, historic craft in his trailerable design. These boats were originally fished from the beach, but required oxen or tractors to haul and launch them. I think this build will be extremely rewarding.

    Thanks again.

    R

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Cool pics. Sounds like you have made a decision on the design which is sometimes a bigger battle than the build itself.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanGillnet View Post
    Thanks, James. I have friends in North Vancouver, Seattle, Friday Harbor, and on Vancouver Island, so in a few years this boat may end up for a trip to Salish Sea. It WILL be tough to drag the boat but leave the bamboo spey rods at home. PNW trips usually mean 10 days in March, chasing winter steelhead. Though my buddy in North Van seems to think a boat would allow access to previously unreachable coastal rivers.

    Since I have a path forward, maybe a few photos for inspiration are in order.

    Francois Vivier's Ebihen 16.
    An old postcard showing 'flobarts' going to sea.
    And a restored boat, flying that lovely bourcet-malet lug yawl rig.


    I think M. Vivier has really captured the spirit of the burdensome, historic craft in his trailerable design. These boats were originally fished from the beach, but required oxen or tractors to haul and launch them. I think this build will be extremely rewarding.

    Thanks again.

    R
    Are there any historic sets of lines around? you could work directly from them with real wood, no conversion needed. I have found that often times traditional designs have features that seem trivial but on construction suddenly make lots of sense with the way trad wood/fastenings are cut and go together... these details (you may not know what they are yet) may or may not still be present in a strip planked conversion. Regarding the Oxen or Tractors, I don't see them as any more powerfull than a modern vehicle, just better at dealing with a sandy beach, these traditional boats should haul with very little effort.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Hi, Daniel. Thanks for chiming in.

    I haven't been able to find any historic lines, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Most of these were 6m+. Part of the trouble in searching is the language barrier. My French is only rudimentary. If there's a French version of Chapelle, I haven't been able to track him down. The lines must exist somewhere, as there seems to be a following of the type among model builders. This might be the path I need to go down to find a set of lines.



    I'm still awaiting a response from M. Vivier, but one of the things I asked him about is construction details for a traditional lapstrake Ebihen, rather than trying to convert the stip planked plans. Ebihen isn't really a replica of the type, more of an "inspired-by", but any historic documents can only aid in a traditional build. The original type were burdensome keel boats, while the Vivier Ebihen is a much lighter centerboard boat designed for recreation. Francois has designed several boats for timber clinker, so I believe he'll be able to advise. Without drawings of the historic types, I've been trying to find images of the interiors of surviving vessels to see what I can determine... amazing how few people take photos of the interiors of their boats. Here are two photos, one of a historic craft, and one of a stip planked Ebihen 15. The boats share similar length and beam, but the historic craft is built much heavier.





    Any advice and suggestions as I go forward are very much appreciated. I can't thank you all enough.

    As for hauling... well... I wasn't planning to buy oxen, just commenting on how these boats were handled on the beach historically. (Though the ever fetching Mrs. Gillnet would love to own a team!)

    R
    Last edited by RyanGillnet; 08-05-2013 at 02:13 PM.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    I dont see the lines would have to be changed from strip plank for trad clinker. Boats were sometimes built in carvel or clinker on the same moulds. Fisherman rarely had the interest to take photos of their own boats, but i imagine there is a mass of photos somewhere as the Bretton/Brittany working boat culture is very strong. If you come up with anything,please do share it.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I dont see the lines would have to be changed from strip plank for trad clinker. Boats were sometimes built in carvel or clinker on the same moulds. Fisherman rarely had the interest to take photos of their own boats, but i imagine there is a mass of photos somewhere as the Bretton/Brittany working boat culture is very strong. If you come up with anything,please do share it.
    Oh, to find that mass of photos, eh?

    I don't think Daniel was saying that the lines need to be changed, but that a look at historical plans would give some clues as to how these boats were built once-upon-a-time. The construction details. And that a clinker boat could be built directly from original plans if I'd like. But I'm not too interested (for now!) in building a replica, as the original boats were heavy, burdensome keel boats. Mr. Vivier's interpretation of the type for recreation use keeps the spirit of the originals, while making for a more practical boat according to my criteria.

    Are ya tired of photos yet?




    Anyone know the story behind the 'mustache'? I don't think this particular piece of decoration was limited to France's north and west coast fishing fleet.

    R

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Traditional clinker Ebihen 16 it is! I've had a great email exchange with M. Vivier and he has worked up a traditional timber version of Ebihen. Plans will be ordered soon. Thanks for all the advice and discussion. It was very interesting, and I learned a lot. Much appreciated gang.

    R

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Thats the first hurdle accomplished Ryan, well done. Hope to see the start of a build thread in the future. Crow will be a cracker!

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I dont see the lines would have to be changed from strip plank for trad clinker. Boats were sometimes built in carvel or clinker on the same moulds. Fisherman rarely had the interest to take photos of their own boats, but i imagine there is a mass of photos somewhere as the Bretton/Brittany working boat culture is very strong. If you come up with anything,please do share it.
    there could be major differences in the shape of the hull from a strip boat to a historic plank hull. the run of the planking often influences hull the shape of a historic hull where really any shape hull can be built with strip plank by simply ending or running strips out at the keel or rail. On a plank boat you want fairly straight planks that terminate at the stem and transom. There are planks on a ply Cal yawl that are 10+ inches wide and have 2+ ft. of curvature to them, a real pain when planking with real wood but no big deal when sawing a plank from a 4x8 sheet of ply, it's quite possible that a strip built boat could have similar excentricities... not to say it cant be done just it already has been done and probably by more skilled men than any of us.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Only Vivier Misainier I've seen in the UK is for sale.

    Carvel larch on oak...dipping lug.

    http://www.woodenships.co.uk/sailing-yachts/mizainier

    Design is in his heritage open boats section.

    http://www.vivierboats.com/html/heritage_open.htmlI

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-12-2013 at 03:35 PM.

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Thats Annie, belongs to an friend of mine . Well looked after boat, surprised hes selling it!

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    there could be major differences in the shape of the hull from a strip boat to a historic plank hull. the run of the planking often influences hull the shape of a historic hull where really any shape hull can be built with strip plank by simply ending or running strips out at the keel or rail. On a plank boat you want fairly straight planks that terminate at the stem and transom. There are planks on a ply Cal yawl that are 10+ inches wide and have 2+ ft. of curvature to them, a real pain when planking with real wood but no big deal when sawing a plank from a 4x8 sheet of ply, it's quite possible that a strip built boat could have similar excentricities... not to say it cant be done just it already has been done and probably by more skilled men than any of us.
    If you have trouble planking, just use narrower planks. Look at the advert for Annie, she has a really hard turn in the bilge and has been carvel planked, but those planks are real narrow at the stern,not the easiest boat to plank.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Only Vivier Misainier I've seen in the UK is for sale.

    Carvel larch on oak...dipping lug.

    http://www.woodenships.co.uk/sailing-yachts/mizainier

    Design is in his heritage open boats section.

    http://www.vivierboats.com/html/heritage_open.htmlI

    Ed
    Oh my. And I even like the colour...

    R

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    Default Re: First Build - Traditional Clinker or Carvel



    Quite some bilge profile. Look much firmer than the Cornish Tosher's on the other side of the Channel.




    20ft Cornish Tosher's:- This one was a new build from the lines of 'Dolphin', once built by Percy Mitchell.







    http://www.sailing-boats-for-sale.co...at_146365.aspx

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 08-13-2013 at 04:49 AM.

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