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Thread: An Ilur in Vermont

  1. #71
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    John do you get any wiggle in those finger joins?

  2. #72
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Pre or post epoxy?

  3. #73
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Pre, I was wondering cos I would have thought there'd have to be a bit of room for the epoxy to go in and that could cause some wiggle therefore how do you check overall alignment of the plank?

  4. #74
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Sorry if that sounded flippant--there is a bit of wiggle, but there is a sweet spot that allows a glue line about the thickness of a not too sharp pencil all the way round when it is aligned. i will go see if a picture shows that clearly.

  5. #75
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont


    Enough room for epoxy line....
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 05:39 AM.

  6. #76
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont



    Severe misalignment would be pretty apparent. I have been assuming that if I get the joint with a symmetric glue line, I'm O.K.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 05:42 AM.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Is that a rebate along one edge of the plank?

  8. #78
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    No, Andrew, it is several pairs of planks stacked one atop the other in the que to be glued up. On the right hand side of the plank you can see a couple of small "bumps" along the edge to remind the builder not to have the fore and aft ends flipped the wrong way. There are similar bumps to indicate which plank is which.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Unbelievable detail. I have been looking at his Koalen 26 and the pictures for that. Oh to be a decade younger.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Its amazing. It looks as easy as assembling an Ikea bookcase. Except you get a beautiful lapstrake boat!

  11. #81
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    http://

    Severe misalignment is pretty apparent. I have been assuming that if I get the joint with a symmetric glue line, I'm O.K.
    John, Which plank is this? Is it only this one?

    I have some prints with offsets where you can measure the curvature as a width from a line connecting the ends of the plank. THis way you can be sure the glue cures with the proper sweep in the plank.
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  12. #82
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    A question for Clint. The photos I have seen of other Vivier kits had a fairly complicated cnc cut planking scarfs with various thickness cutouts internal to the scarf itself and they end up with a straight line across the plank surface on each side the same as if a hand cut taper scarf is used. IIRC you used this type of scarf on the DIK kits. Is there a structual reason to use this "puzzle" type scarf instead of the "vivier" type, or is it merely a cost of production thing?

  13. #83
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Clint, that was not the natural "lie" of that joint--I had positioned it to show the maximum amount of misalignment possible if someone assembled the joint with extreme inattention......the joints want to lie in a place that naturally gives an even space for the epoxy line. I also wondered about the scarphs that Graeme discribed....structural issues aside, it seems that the more complex CNC scarph would also give a cleaner appearance and easier clean up of squeeze out.

  14. #84
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont

    So, a valuable lesson learned by this novice builder, and a potentially big mistake headed off by the good Mssrs. Chase & Vivier, abetted by yours truly, armed with good cheer and weapons of mass destruction. Well, actually, a heat gun and a variety of scrapers. I had assumed (uh, oh!) that the curvature of the planks would be correct if the glue line was as even as possible across the joint. They were, mostly. Clint sent along a diagram of offsets he obtained from Francois, allowing exact curvatures. Of 4 pairs of planks glued up by eye, one plank absolutely requested correction. Taking the joint apart was far easier than I anticipated, and with a pair of scrapers of different size and shape, winkling the epoxy out of the seam took all of fifteen or 20 minutes, with no damage whatever to the plank. It has been repoxied after minor clean-up, in an entirely more amicable disposition.

    I am now dry fitting the garboards, making fine adjustments to the keelson bevel and stem prior to glue up:




    Another day or two of puttering at this, and I should be ready to get the garboards permanently attached.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 05:48 AM.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    I screwed up once (yes, yes, I know it's very hard to believe...) and had to remove a plank on a glued lap boat. Wonders what a heat gun and a little patience will do. The one drawback to a kit-boat is that you've got very little margin of error. There's no extra wood for do-overs. John, I'm glad the forward end of the garboard plank took the twist nicely. I always hold my breath, waiting for the sound of snapping plys.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme Forrest View Post
    A question for Clint. The photos I have seen of other Vivier kits had a fairly complicated cnc cut planking scarfs with various thickness cutouts internal to the scarf itself and they end up with a straight line across the plank surface on each side the same as if a hand cut taper scarf is used. IIRC you used this type of scarf on the DIK kits. Is there a structual reason to use this "puzzle" type scarf instead of the "vivier" type, or is it merely a cost of production thing?
    Francois seems to gravitate to the puzzle joints or "finger joints" and I go more towards the NC scarf, the one with the blind interlocking joint (see below). The NC scarf is much trickier to do, but not for a real expert programmer/machinist with a high grade machine. If I had my own CNC machine I'd only do these joints. On the kits that I design, I use the NC scarf but do have a finger joint option at hand in case it is needed as a fall back. I don't thing one is any stronger than the other.


    NC scarf and puzzle scarf by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickbr />
    Good news, John! Back on track.
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

    http://tinyurl.com/myboats

  17. #87
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Thank you, Clint. I will see how the #3 plank lies once the first two strakes are down. If it looks like it will be a tussle to get the plank ends to land where designed, it will be a simple enough affair to disassemble them and put them back together again to Francois' specs. If I go that route, I'd be happy to take pictures of the process for anyone who might otherwise be concerned that epoxy is "forever". This reminds me of making Windsor chairs in that variances at one level of a build can be accounted for and to some degree adjusted for in subsequent stages to keep the whole piece fair to the eye (and the structure optimally sound). Knowing when an "irregularity" becomes a "mistake", and understanding how a variance will affect the whole, and what adjustment will account for it in later steps is where competency is learned, and where a competent craftsperson can strive for artistry beyond competency. An earlier post likened the assembly of the superstructure to a piece of Ikea furniture. I think that is an oversimplification. Even with the amazing degree of legwork the Francois and you and the CNC cutters put into a kit like this, there is a real need for thoughtful woodworking, and a good enough understanding of the many steps in the build process to give a relative amateur an opportunity to achieve a beuatiful finished product.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Do these finger joints get taped? I can see in the NC scarf joints how that might not be required, but I'm wondering about the puzzle joints.
    Building a Core Sound 17 (Part I, Part II)

  19. #89
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Have a look at #57

  20. #90
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont


    This shows it a little more clearly. Only the first 4 or 5 strakes need glassing.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 05:51 AM.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Ah perfect, missed that earlier on. This is quite a kit, looking forward to seeing the planking bring out the lines of this one!

    chris
    Building a Core Sound 17 (Part I, Part II)

  22. #92
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont



    Sunday, a day of rest after a saturday overnight shift that was Hell on Wheels.....definitely a good day to stay away from woodworking, get my feet up, and dream of fonder things. My cat, Cricket joins in. her favorite dream: It is 1958, and she is no mere house cat.....she is the magnificent and terrible Crickzilla, breathing radioactive fire, and kicking over buildings, with Tokyo in flames. On a more energetic day, she often tries her best to live out this fantasy......
    My daydream: a forest of clamps, and a seamless union of garboard and keelson. This soon yields to other daydreams, of Constable skies, and the happy burble of a bow wake creaming from under the forefoot of my trim little ship.......
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 05:58 AM.

  23. #93
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont



    This morning, yesterday's daydream takes shape. Who says daydreams are a waste of time?
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 06:03 AM.

  24. #94
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont



    Up at the bow, the forest of clamps is a bit more wild. I clamped the strake in place for a day or two to let the plank take a "set" following the curve and twist to it's place onn the stem. Here, you can see minor gaps between stem and garboard--progressively tightening the clamps let me close the gap withoutundue stress to the strake.....glue up after the strake has sat like this is pretty easy. Observant readers will also note that I have not yet taken the bevel on the stem where plank #2 will land down to a final surface.



    I also cut a rough opening where the plank will rest over the CB case prior to glue up. It will be trimmed flush later, with a flush trimming router bit and a small hand held router.

    Second garboard will be set this morning, then on to sorting out cutting gains......
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 06:05 AM.

  25. #95
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont

    While the epoxy cures, and before I take saw and chisel and plane to the garboards, I grabbed some scraps of 9mm ply, and headed to the cool of my basement shop, to practice cutting gains.





    Some favored tools.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 06:07 AM.

  26. #96
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont



    First....gain...ever. At the top, right side is full thickness, left hand side is a wafer.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 06:10 AM.

  27. #97
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont

    From another angle:



    I think I'll do several more on scrap before setting to work on the real thing.....
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 06:11 AM.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    John I'd have a think about the gains if I was you.
    i started out like you doing full depth on the bottom plank and then changed to doing half on each, in other words go half depth on the bottom plank outside, and the remaining half on inside of new plank. It's not that hard, a little more work but it leaves a stronger edge behind. And you can get the planks flush more easily it seems.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Thank you, Andrew....I have been wondering about that, and thinking I will do a few practice bits with each type to see which I like. The one I did above was certainly easy, but that feather edge seems pretty delicate to me.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    The feather edge will be well supported by the stem on that design, especially if you cut the gains once the plank is on the boat. I've always cut my gains just on one plank, not both. On the transom for this design, are there gains cut in the planks? I tend to think not.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  31. #101
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont


    Vivier recommends gains, at least on the hull bottom, past the turn of the bilge, you are correct. I think this image of the previous iteration of the kit, shows that.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 06:13 AM.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: An Ilur in Vermont

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    The feather edge will be well supported by the stem on that design, especially if you cut the gains once the plank is on the boat. I've always cut my gains just on one plank, not both. On the transom for this design, are there gains cut in the planks? I tend to think not.
    It gets awful thin, but it feels better in ones mind to have a bit o' meat there When bashing to windward. Just putting the alternatives out there.

  33. #103
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont

    There is a flattish section of hull amidships, along the CB case, with only one sawn rib to support planking at the middle of the case. Vivier recommends a batten and screws to help maintain a fair line at the lap. Also, the longitudinal bulkheads which will form the forward flotation chambers make it impossible to use a clothespin type lap clamp, so I used plywood "buttons" and screws. I think in later planks, lap clamps will be able to do most if not all of the clamping while strakes are glued in place.

    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 06:15 AM.

  34. #104
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont



    First two planks on.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 06:18 AM.

  35. #105
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    Default An Ilur in Vermont



    At the transom, I'll probably cut gains for the first five or six strakes, then let the laps run proud.
    Last edited by John hartmann; 07-03-2017 at 06:20 AM.

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