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Thread: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

  1. #1
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    Default A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    I've had a potential client wanting to buy one of my 16' runabouts that he intended to use in the ocean around Gloucester, MA.
    I advised him that my boats had insufficient free board for the purpose and were suitable only for protected waters. Wouldn't you know, he asked me if I could build one suitable for the ocean. That leaves me to wondering if there is a commercial design out there that I could use? I'm thinking Glen L's Monaco or their 20' barre lback. Any ideas?

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale R. Hamilton View Post
    Any ideas?
    What about a Sea Skiff type or perhaps a small lobster yacht?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    What about a Sea Skiff type or perhaps a small lobster yacht?
    No it needs to look like a double cockpit mahogany runabout- Like a Riva.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    How big does he want to go, or rather, how big can you build in your shop, you have a length limit?

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    So you could go with a proper ocean-going hull and just slap the double-cockpit on top, but it sure seems he'd need some coamings all around the cockpits even if you raised the center significantly above the gunwales. Perhaps something adjustable that could be pushed flush with the cockpit edge for protected waters, then raised for offshore use? Hmmmm.....

    Do they make seagoing planing hulls that would work for something dual-purpose like this? Wouldn't it wallow a lot at low speeds in heavy swells if it was capable of really going like a runabout in smooth water?
    Last edited by Thorne; 05-29-2013 at 12:25 PM.
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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    Do they make seagoing planing hulls that would work for something dual-purpose like this? Wouldn't it wallow a lot at low speeds in heavy swells if it was capable of really going like a runabout in smooth water?
    The original Gold Cup boats were a lot closer to our modern deep v offshore boats than they are hydroplanes. All in all, pretty capable boats, but they were a lot larger than the 20' that Dale is referencing in his original post.

    Less important than cockpit coamings are gonna be finding a design with suitable depth, bottom design, and freeboard that fit in the style of a classic runabout. I'd be inclined to look at 'utilities'. Its an interesting design challenge. I look forward to see how Dale negotiates it.
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 05-29-2013 at 12:36 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    That's what I was thinking. Something along the line of a Gar Wood racing boat. Also, some of the early experimental PT boats had sort of barrelback sheers. Might be something to look at for inspiration.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    I'm curious to hear Mcdenny's and PMJ's opinions. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    How fast in how big a sea? Probably a deep-vee (>18 degrees deadrise at transom) bottom........
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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Most of the summer boating up there is in mild weather and whether one slips through the Annisquam and up, or down towards Manchester, there's lots of protected water. Working along that shore counts as pretty quiet most of the time and such storms as may be are quite predictable. Many toodle about up there in low-sided outboard skiffs, just right for a summer's afternoon run to a nice beach on Plum. Maybe get back to your prospect and find out what he's actually planning. Unless he's an 'out in all weather' type, your standard boat might be just the trick.

    G'luck

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    I have plans for a Hacker Baby Doll, but thats 26ft, and White Cap at 24ft. I dont know that i would want to take either offshore, but i believe the Baby Doll hull was used a lot in racing, in all weather. White Caps hull is not much different, and i would have no probs using it on the lake here which can get nasty.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    maybe some of the modern Hacker designs would be a good place to start. . .

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    maybe some of the modern Hacker designs would be a good place to start. . .

    WOW Paul- I think thats what I had in mind- but surely Hacker designs are a closely guarded secret. Can you think of any commercial plans like that?

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Volume X111 modern motor boats "ideal series". Several Hackers to choose from.....

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    I've ridden in a modern Hacker 'speedboat'. I'm pretty sure its based very closely on a post war design, updated for cold molded construction, and a modern marine powerplant. They still use many of the original patterns for switchgear and chrome fittings and rubber pads for footsteps and such. The original John L. Hacker plans are archived at the Mariner's Museum. Go here: http://www.marinersmuseum.org/library/plans-drawings and scroll down to the John L. Hacker Collectionfor details, includes Plans for boats, ranging in sizes from 12' to 108', include cruisers, fishing vessels, hydroplanes, rescue boats, runabouts, sedans, torpedo boats, and utility boats.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Let us know how you get on Dale, i had no luck getting plans from there.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    I grew up with a 22’ 1928 Chris Craft cadet that we used every summer in Boston harbor.
    Later we had a 1930 26’ triple cockpit Hutchinson we took that around Manhattan one year, Hell Gate was its usual happy self and the boat handled it well with an experienced person on the helm and throttle. If you’re good you can surf the waves and it’s a heck of a ride, water everywhere but in the boat, engine roaring and a slow motion rollercoaster effect.
    Though I think you are technically correct that these are not blue water boats that is also true of most of the power boats around Gloucester. The 1930 hull is likely as able to handle the ocean as a Bayliner, but more comfortable to drive.
    I would go for 22 or 26’ if the guy can afford it, 16 is kind of small. I loved the Hutchinson but the convertible top on the cadet can be nice.
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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Don't know anything about these types of boats so these may be really off the mark:

    18' RED SHRIKE RUNABOUT
    Designed along the lines of a traditional 1930's runabout with rounded tumblehome to the topsides at the transom, the drawings detail her for construction using computer generated frames/bulkheads, transom and stem. Ribbands are then slotted into the frames and the planking (which may have a ply inner skin) is applied with the ribbands behind the seams. Decking consists of teak strips over ply so that in all respects she has a traditional appearance but uses modern building methods. She has room and strength to carry an engine of up to 125 hp.
    Below is Peter Myers beautiful example.
    18' Redshrike Particulars
    LOA 18' 5.49m
    Beam 6' 1.82m
    Hull Mid Depth 2'10" 0.86m
    Draft 1'9" 0.53m
    Approx. Dry Weight 3043 lbs 1380 kg
    Engine 60-125 hp inboard
    Hull Shape
    V bottom single chine
    Construction Methods Ply over frame
    Major plywood requirements for hull 4 x 4mm sheets
    12 x 6mm sheets
    2 x 9mm sheets
    4 x 12mm sheets
    Guidance Use 4-6 adults
    Drawing/Design Package 6 x A1 drawings + 7 x A4 instruction/spec sheets
    Additions and alterations included with the plans





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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    21' TARANTO RUNABOUT
    We have often been asked about the design of a more rakish runabout - built in much the same way as the Redshrike (a ply inner skin over frames covered with Mahogany veneer) but with more modern lines - and at last we have been asked to design one. This example has a length of 21’3” (6.5m), and a beam of 6’7” (2m). Weight is approx. 3000lbs (1361kg) depending on the engine used - engines up to 175hp may be used.
    21' Taranto Particulars
    LOA 21'3" 6.5m
    Beam 6'7" 2m
    Hull Mid Depth 3' 1 1/2" 0.95m
    Draft 10" 0.25m
    Approx. Dry Weight 3000 lbs 1361 kg
    Engine 75-175 hp inboard
    Hull Shape
    V bottom single chine
    Construction Methods Ply over frame
    Major plywood requirements for hull 25 x 6mm sheets
    5 x 12mm sheets
    Guidance Use 4-6 adults
    Drawing/Design Package 7 x A1 drawings + 4 x A4 instruction/spec sheets
    Additions and alterations included with the plans



  20. #20
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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???



    24'6" Snipe Particulars
    LOA 24'6" 7.47m
    Beam 6' 1.83m
    Hull Mid Depth 3'1" 0.94m
    Draft 1'10" 0.55m
    Approx. Dry Weight 2200 lbs 998 kg
    Engine up to 120 hp inboard
    Hull Shape
    V bottom single chine
    Construction Methods Ply over frame
    Major plywood requirements for hull 10 x 6mm sheets
    27 x 9mm sheets
    1 x 12mm sheet
    Guidance Use 6 adults
    Drawing/Design Package 7 x A1 drawings + 11 x A4 instruction/spec sheets
    Additions and alterations included with the plans


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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    As a tribute to a very exellent boat, and to an exceptional amateur owner and driver, I have borrowed the name Ran. The first Ran was built I don't know how many years ago, perhaps 27, to the order of George McKesson-Brown of Huntington, N. Y., by an old established firm of boat builders on the Harlem River. Ran was powered with a big Daimler racing motor that pushed her along at a 30-mile clip, fast for those dim days. She is nearly 40 feet long and a very big boat. Now to return to this later day Ran. She is of V-bottom model having straight sections below the chine line and moulded sections above; a simple hull to build and one of wholesome characteristics. A hull not too difficult for amateur building, and inexpensive for the professional boatbuilding shop. A hull moderately powered and of good speed.
    The freeboard of Ran is ample to assure dryness and comfort in reasonably rough water, and you can be certain her head will not fall too much when slowed down. Two cockpits are shown in the arrangement plan with the motor installed amidships. A regulation steering wheel of bulkhead type with handy motor controls, instruments, gauges, and reverse lever handy are located on the starboard side leaving generous room for two persons to sit beside the driver in comfort and without crowding. The little after cockpit seats two. The rudder is inboard and is controlled from the steering wheel by tiller lines.

    Ran is 18 feet, 8 inches long over all; 18 feet on the water line; 5 feet, 9 inches in breadth and 1 foot, 5 inches draft. The plan shows a motor of about 125 horsepower. The top speed with this power plant will be 33 miles an hour. There are numerous modern motors ideally suited to this design; however I would not advise using a motor of under 60 h.p., and, of course, it should be of the high speed type

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    There are two Nelson Zimmer runabout plans from WoodenBoat that may work. Zimmer was at one time a draftsman for John Hacker. .

    Designed by Nelson Zimmer
    LOA - 22'
    Beam - 5' 11"
    Draft - 10 3/8"
    Displ. - 2,398 lbs.
    Construction: Batten-seam planking over sawn frames
    Skill level: Advanced
    Lofting is required
    Plans include 4 sheets.


    Propulsion: 150-250 hp Inboard gas engine.


    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Wow- you guys overwhelm me with possibilities. However I do like the Red Shrike best. I'd have to use a 4 cylinder stern drive however- either the Mercury 3.0 liter or one of the new light weight diesels. I'd move the second cockpit forward and put the engine in the rear. A double cockpit runabout behaves quite differently when it has 4 people in it as opposed to two- its really nice to have the trim.

    I guess the next move is the potential buyer's.

    As always thanks for the informed comment.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Maybe get back to your prospect and find out what he's actually planning. Unless he's an 'out in all weather' type, your standard boat might be just the trick.
    Double ditto what Ian said.

    Plenty of people take all kinds of "lake" boats into the ocean 'longshore, with prudence and an eye on the weather and tide.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    21' TARANTO RUNABOUT
    We have often been asked about the design of a more rakish runabout - built in much the same way as the Redshrike (a ply inner skin over frames covered with Mahogany veneer) but with more modern lines - and at last we have been asked to design one. This example has a length of 21’3” (6.5m), and a beam of 6’7” (2m). Weight is approx. 3000lbs (1361kg) depending on the engine used - engines up to 175hp may be used.
    21' Taranto Particulars
    LOA 21'3" 6.5m
    Beam 6'7" 2m
    Hull Mid Depth 3' 1 1/2" 0.95m
    Draft 10" 0.25m
    Approx. Dry Weight 3000 lbs 1361 kg
    Engine 75-175 hp inboard
    Hull Shape
    V bottom single chine
    Construction Methods Ply over frame
    Major plywood requirements for hull 25 x 6mm sheets
    5 x 12mm sheets
    Guidance Use 4-6 adults
    Drawing/Design Package 7 x A1 drawings + 4 x A4 instruction/spec sheets
    Additions and alterations included with the plans


    It depends on how lumpy the seas are where the boat will operate.
    You may need a design with the chine coming well up the stem to soften the ride, so this is the better of the three plans posted but it still does not have as fine a bow as we see here in the UK.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    maybe some of the modern Hacker designs would be a good place to start. . .

    I have contacts in the ACBS that tell me a repo of a boat like that is worth about $500,000.
    And the reason you dare take them out into blue water is because they are never out there for very long. Big HP gets you +50 MPH with ease so you don't have to dilley-dalley.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Hi Dale, Whats wrong with your regular boat? Would it bury its bow in big waves? I can't imagine any other problem with going in the ocean. No one in their right mind would go offshore in a little power boat on a breezy day, no matter how high the freeboard. I'd think you need the top to be water tight (full deck, cabin, etc; definitely nothing like a runabout) and the boat to be self righting to be "kinda safe" offshore. Maybe the guy from Gloucester can tell you what other 16ish foot boats other people are using in his area. I believe Phil Bolger's personal boat was a 16' OB utility (Seguin??) with a sharp forefoot transitioning to a flat bottom at the transom.

    A mahogany version of the original Cigarette 16' might give a smoother ride than something with moderate deasrise but in 6' seas you are not going to be going fast in a small boat no matter how deep the V is. Actually, I just looked at a picture on your boat and it must have 18 or 20 degrees of deadrise already, that seems like a lot.

    We used to go out in the ocean off the coast of Delaware frequently in the summer time in our 19' Bayliner bow rider. There is nothing less sea worthy than an open bow rider but obviously we picked our weather. Only time we took water over the bow was in the Chesapeake on a calm day with big yacht waves.

    I suppose you could scale up you current design to 20-22 feet. I might feel more seaworthy by virtue of its larger size but would it be really?
    Last edited by mcdenny; 05-30-2013 at 09:35 PM.
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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    I thought last night that most of the plans offered have been for mid-mounted engines, and i had noticed you have always used a sterndrive set up. I wouldnt be too comfortable with just moving the engine aft in some of these designs......though granted the new mercruisers are not particulary heavy. Has your client got a power/speed wish? Your current motor choice may end up running out of puff quite quickly as the boat gets bigger and heavier.

    I got as far as making the station moulds up for this one before the customer changed his mind, interesting thing is that it was a good performer on the original 40hp engine!

    Whitecap was 2 ft longer than this one, with a tiny cockpit forward of the engine bay. Chris Craft Cadet was another good sized runabout ,but with forward contols. Theres a lot of plans out there, so it will be interesting to see what your client chooses.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale R. Hamilton View Post
    Wow- you guys overwhelm me with possibilities. However I do like the Red Shrike best. I'd have to use a 4 cylinder stern drive however- either the Mercury 3.0 liter or one of the new light weight diesels. I'd move the second cockpit forward and put the engine in the rear. A double cockpit runabout behaves quite differently when it has 4 people in it as opposed to two- its really nice to have the trim. .
    Doesn't this same reasoning sort of beg for a hull that's designed to have the weight of the engine way back against the transom?

    Or does it not really matter once it's on plane?
    I have no choice about growing older, but dammit they can't force me to become any wiser!

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    A lot of the above runabouts are broader and deeper amidships where they are designed to take the weight of a big V8 in most cases, and are generally finer aft, where as a lot of modern stuff is broadest aft due to engine placement and broad flat sterns promoting good planing. Although i believe cheaper and faster installation was always considered one of the benefits of a stern drive. I believe a few Chris Crafts have been retro-fitted with sterndrives, at least a few that had a stern mounted/forward cockpit config.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Both Phil Bolger and William Garden also designed a couple of high performance, traditionally styled mahogany runabouts that are worth a look. Both are pretty 'wholesome' boats and both come with warnings from teh designers as to their high performance. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    Doesn't this same reasoning sort of beg for a hull that's designed to have the weight of the engine way back against the transom?

    Or does it not really matter once it's on plane?
    Well actually I did that with the current boat. Ray Sargeant designed the original runabout for a mid engine Subaru. I stretched the boat 11" and added a second cockpit. I could then mount a 4 cylinder mercruiser against the transom. Other that the 11 inches, the only other thing I did was add a second set of stringers to carry the weight of the passengers. This boat(s) run better than the Subaru- faster.

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    Default

    Doug Hylan's Pretty Marsh 21 is designed for a 4 cyl Merc stern drive. WB has the plans. I have one stretched to 24’ with a V8 stern drive, in use for ten years on a very choppy river. Works great, very dry ride. 50 mph with 260 hp. Built and powered as Hylan's intended, probably 35-40 mph, around 2000 -2500 # weight.

    That's it in my avatar.
    Last edited by mcdenny; 06-01-2013 at 08:51 AM.
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  34. #34

    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Let us know how you get on Dale, i had no luck getting plans from there.
    Same here. I mailed them several times and the only information i got is that it could take a while for them to send the plans. I ended up buying the Runabout Volume which has a lot of the Hacker plans and started from there.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: A mahogany runabout suitable for the sea???

    Client wants what he wants. His idea is rather less than ideal. You build him something you hope might work. He foolisly kills himself.
    His relatives sense a payday on the horizon and sue.
    How's your insurance coverage?

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