Page 1 of 14 1211 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 476

Thread: History of the planing dinghy

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default History of the planing dinghy

    We had a thread some time back that I really miss, about the history of the planing dinghy. It had a lot of information, especially about the New Zealand Patikis, (sp?) that I haven't run across elsewhere. There was also a WoodenBoat magazine article that seemed to reference the thread, but mainly credited Uffa Fox, if memory serves.

    I think the first planing hull we found was one Bruce Taylor brought us, of an 1891 sailing canoe. But it wasn't until Uffa Fox entered the sailing canoe competition that the international competition in sailing canoes came to be dominated by planing boats.

    The earliest American type of planing sailboats to show well in the yachting scene were the inland lake scows, which made the sandbaggers look slow. We still race them, mainly in the Midwest.

    Here's an example:



    Not the oldest class of scow, of course. That would be the A scow, the invention of a Norwegian immigrant to Minnesota.

    From the White Bear Boatworks site:
    http://www.whitebearboatworks.com/History.html
    The Birth of the “Inland Scow”
    Overnight, J.O. Johnson became self-employed. He rented a building on the site where the White Bear Boat Works now stands, and started work on his new design. At that time, he didn’t know how to draft plans, and this new boat turned out to be 38 feet long with square ends and a centerboard. Unlike the other deep-hulled, heavy ballasted boats usually raced in inland waters, Johnson’s scow had a radical dish design so it could skim across the top of the water. A centerboard provided stability.
    When the Yacht Club called one of their regularly scheduled races in 1896, and with a minimum of preparation, Johnson entered his new design. Johnson’s boat looked so different that all his friends laughed and teased him saying, “It looks like a slice of bread” and “It looks like a scow”. This jeering was short-lived, however, as the Johnson Scow not only lapped the fleet, but was home with the sails down by the time the second place boat crossed the finish line.
    Scows are different from most V-bottomed planing dinghies -- they don't slow down when they heel, in fact, if you're sailing to windward, you should heel them. A Scows, with a Portsmouth Yardstick of 63.1, are faster than any other non-foiling monohull I know of, and faster than most multihulls.

    The C Scow rates faster than a Flying Dutchman, even though it's 300 lb. heavier, carries about the same amount of sail upwind, and doesn't have a spinnaker.

    Uffa Fox designed planing dinghies that could perform well to windward in a chop, based on his work with the aircraft industry and its float planes and flying boats.

    I suppose the future lies with foilers, but there's some pretty interesting history here.

    I'm wondering, was there an ancestral Norwegian type that is not widely known, or was Johnson totally original in his thinking?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    15,943

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    I thought the 18' skiffs were generally regarded as the fastest monohulls. I'd have thought that quite a few of the skiffs and skiff look-alikes (49ers etc.) would be faster than any scows. I do like scows though!

    Rick

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    35,882

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    I expect that there was a different development history in the UK, the USA, and Oz. In the UK fast boats had to be designed to handle lumpy water, hence the softer bows and higher chines and deadrise on chine boats. US waters are more sheltered, the East Coast being in the lee of the big weather, so vintage American forms have lower chines to the bow or are practically flat (arc) bottomed.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    22,493

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Cheatsville - the Thames "A" rater, an 1890's scow type, will plane, but only nowadays (because they have trapezes and the hulls are stronger) and of course not in their native haunts.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,145

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Sailing canoes are a bit of a red herring here. The hulls are so skinny that the 'displacement' speed is quite high and the transition between non planing and planing is almost inperceptible. I did a Blue Collar Boating piece in Mystic's late journal, the Log that looks at some of these issues. Certainly the cultural differences between Oz, the UK and the US. Sandbaggers were very fast displacement craft, optimized for hull speed in lightest of airs like log canoes, but that is as fast as they go. The Oz skiffs did not start to go really fast until they kicked out most of the crew and added traps.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  6. #6

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Cheatsville - the Thames "A" rater, an 1890's scow type, will plane, but only nowadays (because they have trapezes and the hulls are stronger) and of course not in their native haunts.
    Back in the late 1960's/early 70's the Thames A raters had a match race against 18ft skiffs on the Thames.

    The A raters won easily, mainly because no boat planed.


    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I thought the 18' skiffs were generally regarded as the fastest monohulls. I'd have thought that quite a few of the skiffs and skiff look-alikes (49ers etc.) would be faster than any scows. I do like scows though!

    Rick
    I suspect the 18' skiffs are faster, but I don't think the comparison has been made directly. In any case, they are a later development than the scows.
    Last edited by johnw; 05-22-2013 at 02:41 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Sailing canoes are a bit of a red herring here. The hulls are so skinny that the 'displacement' speed is quite high and the transition between non planing and planing is almost inperceptible. I did a Blue Collar Boating piece in Mystic's late journal, the Log that looks at some of these issues. Certainly the cultural differences between Oz, the UK and the US. Sandbaggers were very fast displacement craft, optimized for hull speed in lightest of airs like log canoes, but that is as fast as they go. The Oz skiffs did not start to go really fast until they kicked out most of the crew and added traps.
    Not all early sailing canoes were as narrow as the modern ones. Shadow, from about 1890, was 18' x 4.5'.







    Of course, garvys and scows had been tried prior to Johnson's boat, and while they showed great speed in strong winds and flat water, it wasn't until a more sophisticated shape came along that scows were faster all around.

    There was also an East Coast trend in this direction with the development of the sneakbox.

    Here's a Charles Mower sneakbox from 1914:


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I expect that there was a different development history in the UK, the USA, and Oz. In the UK fast boats had to be designed to handle lumpy water, hence the softer bows and higher chines and deadrise on chine boats. US waters are more sheltered, the East Coast being in the lee of the big weather, so vintage American forms have lower chines to the bow or are practically flat (arc) bottomed.
    There was a great deal of racing on the Thames in the 1890s, and the water wasn't terribly lumpy. This may be why the first planing shapes seemed to appear there.



    That's Linton Hope's 1894 design, Soceress. Do you think it could exceed hull speed? The problem with these boats, like the Seawanka rule boats, was that they were built to a short waterline to make the rating.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Cheatsville - the Thames "A" rater, an 1890's scow type, will plane, but only nowadays (because they have trapezes and the hulls are stronger) and of course not in their native haunts.
    Was there a major technical difference in the construction of Avenger's hull and earlier designs? I think it was possible to build a strong enough hull to plane in the 1890s.

    I'm not sold on the notion that the raters couldn't plane in the 1890s. Lots of boats without trapezes could plane, Avenger among them. And as to strength of construction, American scows can be quite heavy and still plane. Minimum weight for the hull of a 20' C scow is 650 lb.

  11. #11

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Legend has it that the Viking longboats would plane.

    For those who haven't seen them, here is a Thames A rater video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKALeaSeJVs

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    35,882

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    There was a great deal of racing on the Thames in the 1890s, and the water wasn't terribly lumpy. This may be why the first planing shapes seemed to appear there.



    That's Linton Hope's 1894 design, Soceress. Do you think it could exceed hull speed? The problem with these boats, like the Seawanka rule boats, was that they were built to a short waterline to make the rating.
    We have had this discussion before. Buttocks are not straight enough nor flat enough. You might push her till the sternwave is just off the counter without swamping her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard of Woods Designs View Post
    Legend has it that the Viking longboats would plane.

    For those who haven't seen them, here is a Thames A rater video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKALeaSeJVs

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
    The Shetlanders big boats would become what they called "sea loose" which reading the texts suggests surfing down a wave. They were careful to reduce speed when that occurred by dropping the sail until the rudder regained control.
    I expect that the faster Viking ships might do the same.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    J.O. Johnson was said to be influenced by the boats of his native Norway, but the Norwegians are not big on scows or garvies. Could his design be based on the Scandinavian pram?

    I drew up a 20' pram with a displacement of over a ton.



    Then I reduced the vertical scale of the design to 60% of what it had been:



    The result looks more than a bit like the scows Johnson built.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    We have had this discussion before. Buttocks are not straight enough nor flat enough. You might push her till the sternwave is just off the counter without swamping her.



    The Shetlanders big boats would become what they called "sea loose" which reading the texts suggests surfing down a wave. They were careful to reduce speed when that occurred by dropping the sail until the rudder regained control.
    I expect that the faster Viking ships might do the same.
    Duggan's and Stephens' designs for the Seawanka rule had the same defect. Did the Thames Rater rule change, or do the modern raters have hulls like this?
    Last edited by johnw; 05-22-2013 at 04:56 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    18,544

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Here is a picture of an A rater in its native habitat.



    The big impediment to planing is the tree in the background - these things just kill the wind.
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    15,943

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Looks fantastic!
    Rick

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Norwich,United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,922

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    These planed:


    In fact a chap called Stewart Morris sailed one before moving on to more widely sailed classes.Even before the adoption of a trapeze they had a lower Portsmouth Yardstick than a Flying Dutchman.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    These planed:


    In fact a chap called Stewart Morris sailed one before moving on to more widely sailed classes.Even before the adoption of a trapeze they had a lower Portsmouth Yardstick than a Flying Dutchman.
    How early do you reckon the punts took on their planing form? I think they started out looking something like a pirogue.

  19. #19

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    This is one of the homes of the A rater

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcV8Ss5tT3s

    as you can see its a narrow bit of water, there are never any waves and the winds are generally light and flukey. So the premium is on manouverability, especially roll tacking/gybing, and windward work. Not much benefit from planing.

    That's why the A raters have the dished hull and why boats like Fireflies, old N12s and Merlins can still be competitive against more modern designs

    The Thames is also the place where the famous wooden dinghies of the 1950's-60s like Solo, Enterprise, Mirror and the Merlin Rocket and Nat 12 were developed. Naturally the local conditions heavily influenced their design. I've sailed there - it's very tricky.

    If you can, check out the books like Dinghies Delight and The History of the National 12 by Robin Steavenson

    The Norfolk Punt was always the fastest crewed dinghy, faster than the FD. It was developed on the Norfolk Broads

    http://www.norfolkpunt.org/history/

    (Sorry for the overlapping post, I don't type very fast)

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    By the way, here's a vid of a Norfolk Punt sailing:


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    35,882

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    How early do you reckon the punts took on their planing form? I think they started out looking something like a pirogue.
    Norfolk gun punts look nothing like Dylan's Essex punt. They were wider and shallower with a cambered deck. Sort the bow out and widen the line of the stern and you have a flat water planing hull.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Looking at this vid, I'd say the Thames raters still have quite a bit of stern overhang, but wider sterns and straighter lines aft.


  23. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Norfolk gun punts look nothing like Dylan's Essex punt. They were wider and shallower with a cambered deck. Sort the bow out and widen the line of the stern and you have a flat water planing hull.
    Is the video I posted mislabeled? When I Google "Norfolk punt" I come up with a lot of boats that look like the one in post #20.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    I think the sailing punts developed out of the gunning punts. In any case, I was referring to John Meachen's post #17, which shows a punt from here: http://www.puntclub.co.uk/

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    35,882

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Is the video I posted mislabeled? When I Google "Norfolk punt" I come up with a lot of boats that look like the one in post #20.
    Not at all. They started out as gun punts, used like your sneak boxes, but with a big bore gun mounted were that long double barrel is, so that you aimed the boat at a raft of ducks, rather than picking them off with a 12 bore.
    Then the sportsmen evolved them into those big sailing canoes.
    This is a real punt gun, note the breech rope to restrain the recoil.

    and under sail
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Port Stephens
    Posts
    15,943

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Good grief! I thought at first this fellow was taking his calf off to market but now I realise it's just his pet grizzly bear.
    Rick

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Not at all. They started out as gun punts, used like your sneak boxes, but with a big bore gun mounted were that long double barrel is, so that you aimed the boat at a raft of ducks, rather than picking them off with a 12 bore.
    Then the sportsmen evolved them into those big sailing canoes.
    This is a real punt gun, note the breech rope to restrain the recoil.

    and under sail
    Well, that's what I thought had happened. Started with a boat with a hull like a pirogue (but decked, of course,) then some sportsmen started sailing them against each other and they evolved into the Norfolk punts we see today. Where does what you say differ from that? Is it that they were wider, or did they have a different hull form? I was thinking they all went back to those flat-bottomed, hard-chined boats Basil Greenhill identified as one of Britain's oldest types in Archaeology of the Boat.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Wow-Ming
    Posts
    16,259

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    This is an excellent source on the evolution of small boat racing in NZ (the cover photo is a P-class dinghy). It's not on Google Books, alas, but worth buying for those interested.



    The text is good and there are many fine historical photos. I would have liked more lines drawings— there are a few. Here's a photo and caption I posted on the previous thread.


    Some very knowledgeable Kiwis posted on the original thread, especially about the Logan Brothers, Auckland: builders of very fast craft. It's sad that their contributions were lost.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Page 2 of this has the lines of an X class dinghy drawn in 1916. Looks like a planing boat to me.
    http://www.marinewaypoints.com/articles/JimBolland/2007September/BWS_September_07.pdf


    There's some history of the class here: http://www.javelins.org/History/SandersCupPart1.html
    Last edited by johnw; 05-23-2013 at 12:32 AM.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    One of the early small planing boats to achieve popularity was Lark, a 16' scow (well, with the arc bottom and round bow, she actually owed a lot to sneakboxes.) Rudder published the plans and building instructions in three issues, and sold so many copies of those issues that they later issued the plans and instructions as a book, HOW TO BUILD A RACER FOR $50. Apparently, many of these boats were built, but there was no class organization and there were no real venues for racing them, so after a time, people moved on to other boats. Kind of a shame, I think it was a better and faster design than the Snipe. Certainly it would exceed hull speed more often.


  31. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    I think this picture exemplifies the revolution Uffa Fox brought to the International 14 class.


    http://www.worldofboats.org/boats/vi...lightening/129

    On the left, the old school, from a time when Morgan Giles designs dominated the class. On the right, the type Fox introduced.

  32. #32

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    I guess the Fox design is really called Lightning. IIRC that belonged to Peter Scott, son of Scott of the Antarctic, and later president of the WWF. He won the POW in 1936(?) More significant was his next boat (Thunder and Lightning?) which was the first boat ever to use a trapeze

    Richard Woods

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    So, here are the lines for the 1916 proposal that led to the X Class: http://www.marinewaypoints.com/artic...ptember_07.pdf


    Certainly a planing hull with a powerful rig, but look at that bluff bow. For comparison, the Redwing Dinghy, a bit heavier than his International 14s, but a good indicator of Fox's work: http://intheboatshed.net/2011/02/02/...ghy-explained/


    The deeper, finer bow would have made it far better to windward in a chop. To me, this is kind of a big deal, because it meant that planing dinghies could compete in even the toughest venues. By the way, you can still buy the plans. Wouldn't a glued-lap Redwing be cool? And plans for Avenger are only 45 pounds. http://www.uffafox.com/plans.htm

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,335

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard of Woods Designs View Post
    I guess the Fox design is really called Lightning. IIRC that belonged to Peter Scott, son of Scott of the Antarctic, and later president of the WWF. He won the POW in 1936(?) More significant was his next boat (Thunder and Lightning?) which was the first boat ever to use a trapeze

    Richard Woods
    Thank you!

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    35,882

    Default Re: History of the planing dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Well, that's what I thought had happened. Started with a boat with a hull like a pirogue (but decked, of course,) then some sportsmen started sailing them against each other and they evolved into the Norfolk punts we see today. Where does what you say differ from that? Is it that they were wider, or did they have a different hull form? I was thinking they all went back to those flat-bottomed, hard-chined boats Basil Greenhill identified as one of Britain's oldest types in Archaeology of the Boat.
    I had thought that pirogues were quite narrow canoes made for paddeling or poling, more like the Essex punts that Dylan champions. The Norfolk punts were always beamier, and as the new one pictured sailing indicates, often considerably beamier due to their dual purpose - gunning in season and a general workboat at other times.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •