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Thread: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    It is encouraging to learn that you can get it to tack. Yay!
    I suspect the problem is just the speed which she fnally goes through stays. I have no idea what the helm feels like when under a normal sail. I.e. just going along under a broad reach, what is the angle of the tiller? (Tip; using a five foot radius or imaginary tiller, 1 inch = one degree) This helm angle and force is a dynamic condition and as the boat speed changes this can change dramatically.
    Perhaps if you just rigged a different sheeting arrangement to back the mizzen you could prompt her around with good control. Not too soon or too late, timing is everything! Concentrating on keeping the boat moving along is likely your best ploy.

    (We have a little pulling boat that is quite fast, but not ever designed to sail (I sail everything!), with a straight keel with no rocker tacking that thing before it stops is just about impossible. Backing the mizzen works every time, although the boat is often stopped it occasionally will start to make a sternboard and you have to also back the helm!)

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Chinese junks have multiple dagger boards in order to balance trim the boat. However, you might want to experiment with the lee board concept before cutting holes in the hull. Your rudder gudgeon and pintail set up looks to be a bit weak!
    Jay

  3. #213
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    Experimentation is always a good idea. Have everyone on board move well forward when tacking and see how it goes. Shoal draft boats are very sensitive to trim.
    -Dave

  4. #214
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post
    A couple pictures from this weekend's sailing in Northern Michigan. It is certainly a challenge keeping her bow into the wind, so any advice or thoughts are always appreciated. A larger rudder has been suggested?
    Folks. It is not just tacking. She has lee helm because the CB is too far back.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #215
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    I've no opinion as to the CLR, I just want to say it's completely cool. This is from a guy who values sleek boats that sail efficiently.

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    I've no opinion as to the CLR, I just want to say it's completely cool. This is from a guy who values sleek boats that sail efficiently.
    Seconded.

    I am so jealous I haven't had the nerve to do something so amazingly brace and cool and fun.

    I hope you get her sorted. I gues I can opine, after all. I have sailed a bunch of dumb little boats and canoes with a single leeboard slung or clamped to one side. Just one. It works fine.

    You might could try a temporary leeboard that you can move about to determine the ideal spot to place the new dagger, so as to preserve the look. The attachment doesn't have to be all that elaborate, either, really.

    Anyway. Good luck, and thanks for the inspiration thank live my dreams, Yo. Fantastic.

    Peace,
    Robert

  7. #217
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Folks. It is not just tacking. She has lee helm because the CB is too far back.
    Yeah I tried to make that point, but obviously was not successful.

    Im surprised the designer could get it so wrong. Centreboard behind the main mast, ie the one at the back. That was just never going to work.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Yeah I tried to make that point, but obviously was not successful.

    Im surprised the designer could get it so wrong. Centreboard behind the main mast, ie the one at the back. That was just never going to work.


    Along with testing out a temporary forward daggerboard placement, I am going to attempt to do as detailed calculation of the existing CLR and CE as they exist right now.

    Maybe I can then share that and get your opinions of both the calculations, conclusions, and next steps?


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  9. #219
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    This is why I wonder if the boat is way out of trim with too much weight aft, compared to the designers expectations. If she's riding bow up, she'll be both slow and hampered with a Lee helm.
    -Dave

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    This is why I wonder if the boat is way out of trim with too much weight aft, compared to the designers expectations. If she's riding bow up, she'll be both slow and hampered with a Lee helm.


    Woxbox;

    She rides exactly at the designed waterline right now, too.


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  11. #221
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    A simple way to find the CLR is to make a cardboard profile of the boat, to scale below the water line, and find the balance point on the edge of a ruler. Hull above the DWL and Rig ware not needed for this.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 08-14-2017 at 12:54 PM.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    A simple way to find the CLR is to make a cardboard profile of the boat, to scale below the water line, and find the balance point on the edge of a ruler. Hull above the DWL and Rig ware not needed for this.
    Jay


    Quick update: we pulled Fang's daggerboard completely out, and the CLR vs CE issue absolutely improved. In short, she went to windward much easier. Obviously, that is not a solution, but it appears to prove out what you guys are saying.

    The next planned step will be to add some type of test daggerboard forward, and vary the heights of both boards. We will also compare that to what the calculations show on paper.


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  13. #223
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Ain't wooden boats fun!
    Jay

  14. #224
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post
    Quick update: we pulled Fang's daggerboard completely out, and the CLR vs CE issue absolutely improved. In short, she went to windward much easier. Obviously, that is not a solution, but it appears to prove out what you guys are saying.

    The next planned step will be to add some type of test daggerboard forward, and vary the heights of both boards. We will also compare that to what the calculations show on paper.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Is there a way, perhaps to use the daggerboard as a temporary leeboard to find an ideal location? I mean, is it long enough to lash on the rail somewhere? I've sailed a bunch with a board lashed to the rail with a fender between it and the boat. Not ideal, but fine on small boats, and probably enough to allow you to experiment without chopping holes in the boat.

    Of course, I realize the need to shift the board may slow down the tacking process a bit, but...

    Peace,
    Robert

  15. #225
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Id be carefully checking the CE calculations. Just looking at the rig there's no way the CE is aft of the main mast.

  16. #226
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    So, the Center of effort (CE) and Center of lateral resistance (CLR) are now done. At present, with all fore and aft sails set, the CE is ~24" forward of the mainmast, and the CLR is ~18" behind the mainmast.

    Adding a second daggerboard just behind the foremast will even the 2 points up when both are fully down. I can also make each able to drop down partially to increase or decrease their underwater surface area.

    Any suggestions on my next immediate step?


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  17. #227
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post
    So, the Center of effort (CE) and Center of lateral resistance (CLR) are now done. At present, with all fore and aft sails set, the CE is ~24" forward of the mainmast, and the CLR is ~18" behind the mainmast.

    Adding a second daggerboard just behind the foremast will even the 2 points up when both are fully down. I can also make each able to drop down partially to increase or decrease their underwater surface area.

    Any suggestions on my next immediate step?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    So you have a 42" lead, for a schooner according to Skene's it should be 5% of your WL length.
    Before you cut holes in her bottom I would rig a temporary leeboard and check it out.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  18. #228
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Suggestions? Cut a slot in the bottom. Box it in. Make a board. It will be great.

  19. #229
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    I agree on the leeboard test. But I would favor getting one board in the right place for the long term. Sailing with two boards gives flexibility, but you'll forever have to haul up the aft one every time you tack.
    -Dave

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