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Thread: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Pirate ship updates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    If you have an AGM or other sealed type battery, it can go anywhere, although keeping weight out of the ends of the boat is a good idea, as is keeping it low. The gas tank needs careful placement. It must be in a ventilated area and it needs to vent away from all enclosed spaces. If you buy a standard portable fuel tank like those 6 gallon molded things you can pick up anywhere, it should be on deck. They are not designed to be placed below deck in any way. This is an area where you don't ever cut corners.
    Thanks! This is exactly what I was looking for on the gas tank. The battery is a sealed type.

    The intent is/was to have the 3.1 gallon (plastic) tank that came with the outboard sit directly to the right of it. Would having a fold down seat above the motor and tank leave enough ventilation? There would be open space forward (a light canvas curtain would pull across), and also out the 12'x11" gun ports. I could lay it out and take another picture close up?

  2. #177
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Is the motor in a watertight motor welll? That is not clear from your photos.
    Build a water tight tank stowage box alongside the motor well, with a generous vent hole at the lowest point of the box into the motor well so the fumes drain out of the boat. Do not let it vent inboard, as the fumes will try to settle into the lowest point of the hull.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Is the motor in a watertight motor welll? That is not clear from your photos.
    Build a water tight tank stowage box alongside the motor well, with a generous vent hole at the lowest point of the box into the motor well so the fumes drain out of the boat. Do not let it vent inboard, as the fumes will try to settle into the lowest point of the hull.


    The motor well walls extend 20" above the waterline. They are tight except for the small opening for the shaft. Did that answer your first question accurately?

    I can absolutely do the water tight stowage box. What if I had the low vent point exit outside the hull itself, via a stern opening?

    Not letting it vent inboard makes total sense now, considering your point on the fumes settling. Thank you.


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  4. #179
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post

    I can absolutely do the water tight stowage box. What if I had the low vent point exit outside the hull itself, via a stern opening?
    Just the ticket.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #180
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    I like those electric drivers for docking! Bow thrusters might help as well considering the windage you have to deal with. I would only consider the bow thrusters if manuverablily warrants it. Your little ship is amazingly deceptive in that it looks big but fits in your garage!
    Nick is very correct in his concern about the engine being contained in a water tight compartment. I once nearly sank on a delivery of a miniature Chinese Junk that had an outboard well that was not water tight. Only the Portagee bilge pump I brought along saved us.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 02-24-2017 at 01:44 PM.

  6. #181
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    Default Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I like those electric drivers for docking! Bow thrusters might help as well considering the windage you have to deal with. I would only consider the bow thrusters if manuverablily warrants it. Your little ship is amazingly deceptive in that it looks big but fits in your garage!
    Nick is very correct in his concern about the engine being contained in a water tight compartment. I once nearly sank on a delivery of a miniature Chinese Junk that had an outboard well that was not water tight. Only the Portagee bilge pump I brought along saved us.
    Jay


    Jay;

    Bow thruster: fantastic idea. I originally thought "3rd trolling", but the bow thruster could actually fit well within the forward keel.

    The 2 stern electrics will spin her like a top in place, and are invaluable for docking, and you are so very correct about the windage. It is a challenge sometimes.

    Water tight wells: I am also leery, and have done virtually everything I can to make them as strong and tight as possible during this update. The first launch this spring will be on a small lake with a shallow sandy shore, so we will find out quick with some level of safety factor. That is a lesson I would rather avoid learning!

    Gents; sincere thanks for the constructive comments and thoughts. I really appreciate the time, and any critiques or ideas are pure gold for us.


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    Last edited by lothar4550; 02-24-2017 at 06:18 PM.

  7. #182
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Just going back over this p[age.



    That outboard is set very low, a long way below the waterline. It could be lifted a good few inches. With the prop closer to the hull it will develop more thrust and will be protected from grounding
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Just going back over this p[age.



    That outboard is set very low, a long way below the waterline. It could be lifted a good few inches. With the prop closer to the hull it will develop more thrust and will be protected from grounding


    Good point. I will take a look and see if raising it is an option. The motor is a Tohatsu sailpro, and does have a long shaft.


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  9. #184
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Ay, long shafts are designed for high transoms, not low props. An increase in freeboard is not to be sneezed at.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #185
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    One other consideration would be to switch to a small one or two cylinder inboard marine engine. You would then have more bunk space and no problem with exhaust in the after cabin. A box could be built over the engine with a table on top which would give some practical use where the engine sits. This would also set the engine further forward which would be an advantage for the balance of the hull. Dolphin engines have been used in England for small craft for nearly sixty years and can save a lot of space as they are quite small. This is a twp cylinder 2 cycle engine that is purported to be very quiet. It does have a gear box that allows it be reversed. The engine produces twelve hp. is water cooled and weighs 120lbs. Certainly it is more power than the outboard you already have but, it could be a Godsend if have to buck a foul current or head wind.
    Jay
    http://www.dolphinengines.co.uk/tech_info.php
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 02-24-2017 at 09:54 PM.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    One other consideration would be to switch to a small one or two cylinder inboard marine engine. You would then have more bunk space and no problem with exhaust in the after cabin. A box could be built over the engine with a table on top which would give some practical use where the engine sits. This would also set the engine further forward which would be an advantage for the balance of the hull. Dolphin engines have been used in England for small craft for nearly sixty years and can save a lot of space as they are quite small. This is a twp cylinder 2 cycle engine that is purported to be very quiet. It does have a gear box that allows it be reversed. The engine produces twelve hp. is water cooled and weighs 120lbs. Certainly it is more power than the outboard you already have but, it could be a Godsend if have to buck a foul current or head wind.
    Jay
    http://www.dolphinengines.co.uk/tech_info.php


    How difficult is it to get these Dolphin engines in the US? Are they all used or do they still produce them? Lastly, how expensive are they?
    "And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by..."

  12. #187
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by riversailor92 View Post
    How difficult is it to get these Dolphin engines in the US? Are they all used or do they still produce them? Lastly, how expensive are they?
    They look like a very nice, well spec'ed engine. However there are other suppliers of small inboards, both petrol and diesel in Europe, and I suspect in the US.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Jay; this Dolphin engines sound excellent. It may be too much of a rebuild to put them into Fang, but we are actually in the process of designing a larger Pirate ship. That type of engine layout might be just the ticket for the main non-sail propulsion.

    Now I just have to find a designer wacky enough to put up with us. Stuart Reid was amazing, but he was badly injured in a fall a few years ago.


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  14. #189
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Since I am a designer/builder, I don't see the installation of an inboard as being too much of a problem other than being a shift in thinking and a bit of extra time to put it in. However, I would try the outboard set up first before making the choice to change to the suggested inboard set up. I do see the inboard as a more efficient source of power over the outboard which can be a hassle to fuss with when removing and replacing it in the boat. I like the instant response of an inboard that is coupled with a folding prop to reduce drag as we have on our H28. A touch on the starter and shift into gear is all that is necessary when the wind and tide are adverse when maneuvering in a tight marina. Having sailed large boats without engines most of my life makes me appreciate the ease of using auxiliary power when conditions dictate the need.

    I had a Vire two cycle 7hp. engine in my 23' Spitsgatter that was very reliable and smooth running. Unfortunatly the engines, which were made in Finland by a State Supported Company, are no longer being made. But there is a cult appeal for these small power plants and often they come up on eBay. As a point of interest, here is the address of the Vire engine site.

    That fine little ship of yours is just plain fascinating for us all!
    Jay
    http://gofree.indigo.ie/~vire7/
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 02-25-2017 at 11:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Since I am a designer/builder, I don't see the installation of an inboard as being too much of a problem other than being a shift in thinking and a bit of extra time to put it in. However, I would try the outboard set up first before making the choice to change to the suggested inboard set up. I do see the inboard as a more efficient source of power over the outboard which can be a hassle to fuss with when removing and replacing it in the boat. I like the instant response of an inboard that is coupled with a folding prop to reduce drag as we have on our H28. A touch on the starter and shift into gear is all that is necessary when the wind and tide are adverse when maneuvering in a tight marina. Having sailed large boats without engines most of my life makes me appreciate the ease of using auxiliary power when conditions dictate the need.

    I had a Vire two cycle 7hp. engine in my 23' Spitsgatter that was very reliable and smooth running. Unfortunatly the engines, which were made in Finland by a State Supported Company, are no longer being made. But there is a cult appeal for these small power plants and often they come up on eBay. As a point of interest, here is the address of the Vire engine site.

    That fine little ship of yours is just plain fascinating for us all!
    Jay
    http://gofree.indigo.ie/~vire7/


    Jay;

    Just sent you a pm.


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  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post
    Jay;

    Just sent you a pm.


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    I did respond to you. My tapatalk app may or may not have sent it through.


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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    It came through fine
    Jay

  18. #193
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    Default Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Is the motor in a watertight motor welll? That is not clear from your photos.
    Build a water tight tank stowage box alongside the motor well, with a generous vent hole at the lowest point of the box into the motor well so the fumes drain out of the boat. Do not let it vent inboard, as the fumes will try to settle into the lowest point of the hull.

    I've taken a couple of steps that I would appreciate any opinions on:

    -We have built a water tight casket that the plastic gas tank sits in. It looks like a rum barrel casket when closed, and will sit on the stern cabin deck next to the motor well.

    -there is a generous hole in the bottom that has a hose attached to it that vents directly outside. Am I correct in assuming most of the fumes will settle due to gravity?

    -around the gas tank and motor well a marine blower is going in, that will also blow directly outside. My plan was to run it for 2-3 minutes before ever starting the outboard.

    Above is a couple of pics.

    My concern is that it all sits inside the stern cabin. It is open above through the quarterdeck, but I am leery about if there is enough ventilation. Gas powered is completely new to me, and I do not want to minimize the risks involved due to inexperience or lack of knowledge.

    Here is pic looking down into the cabin from the quarterdeck:



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  19. #194
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Be careful. Gas tastes pretty bad. Arrrrgh.

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    A couple pictures from this weekend's sailing in Northern Michigan. It is certainly a challenge keeping her bow into the wind, so any advice or thoughts are always appreciated. A larger rudder has been suggested?


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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post
    A couple pictures from this weekend's sailing in Northern Michigan. It is certainly a challenge keeping her bow into the wind, so any advice or thoughts are always appreciated. A larger rudder has been suggested?


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    Your jib is aback for a start, that will definitely make her pay off. Play with the sheeting of your sails before you butcher wood.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Your jib is aback for a start, that will definitely make her pay off. Play with the sheeting of your sails before you butcher wood.


    This pic was taken as we were in the middle of tacking, if that helps at all.


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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post
    This pic was taken as we were in the middle of tacking, if that helps at all.


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    Yes, I have to back the jib to get Peerie Maa through the wind.

    The message is still the same though, play the sheets, depowering the jib a bit and hardening in the mainsail to see if it will help.
    If it does not try deepening the heel of the sternpost with a keel shoe as well as deepening the rudder to shift the ClR back a bit.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #199
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    You have, im my humble opinion, a boat that has a lot of windage. This resistance to the wind can lock a boat such as yours in the eye of the wind before it can
    pass through it, causing the boat to be "caught in irons". In such cases, you might be better off "Waring Ship" by tacking down wind. This is a matter of gybing the boat to get on the other tack. This was done in the Americas cup this year. It allowed those big cats to stay on their foils and keep moving. There is also a maneuver square riggers used for maneuvering in tight quarters. It is also called, "Backing and Filling". You might practice this by setting a square sail and learning she handles when "backing down", sailing in reverse. A sharp crew is needed for this in order to raise, lower and sheet the canvas as and when it is needed. If you have brailing lines on your squares, they can be broken out or triced up in jig time! Fun stuff!

    You can see this done on the Tall Ship Allisa
    here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_3ba2B6-ec Even though she has a stern line to the dock, the principal manuver with the backed squares and spanker is essentially the same as if the ship were free of the dock. Other videos of this beautiful three masted barque can be seen as well on Utube.

    L. Francis Herreshoff once wrote of a square rigged ship that was part of our navy where the new skipper complained that the ship was unmanageable. The powers that be sent an old Commodore, who had experience in square sail, to investigate the problem of the ship being "Crank". After familiarizing the crew as to how to work her in reverse he proceeded to sail her backwards around a small island, the commodore then handed her over to the captain with the comment, "I think she sails all right!
    Jay
    PS, I love that fuel cask!
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 08-12-2017 at 03:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post

    Yes, I have to back the jib to get Peerie Maa through the wind.

    The message is still the same though, play the sheets, depowering the jib a bit and hardening in the mainsail to see if it will help.
    If it does not try deepening the heel of the sternpost with a keel shoe as well as deepening the rudder to shift the ClR back a bit.


    Thank you. Noted.


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  26. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    You have, im my humble opinion, a boat that has a lot of windage. This resistance to the wind can lock a boat such as yours in the eye of the wind before it can
    pass through it, causing the boat to be "caught in irons". In such cases, you might be better off "Waring Ship" by tacking down wind. This is a matter of gybing the boat to get on the other tack. This was done in the Americas cup this year. It allowed those big cats to stay on their foils and keep moving. There is also a maneuver square riggers used for maneuvering in tight quarters. It is also called, "Backing and Filling". You might practice this by setting a square sail and learning she handles when "backing down", sailing in reverse. A sharp crew is needed for this in order to raise, lower and sheet the canvas as and when it is needed. If you have brailing lines on your squares, they can be broken out or triced up in jig time! Fun stuff!

    You can see this done on the Tall Ship Allisa
    here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_3ba2B6-ec Even though she has a stern line to the dock, the principal manuver with the backed squares and spanker is essentially the same as if the ship were free of the dock. Other videos of this beautiful three masted barque can be seen as well on Utube.

    L. Francis Herreshoff once wrote of a square rigged ship that was part of our navy where the new skipper complained that the ship was unmanageable. The powers that be sent an old Commodore, who had experience in square sail, to investigate the problem of the ship being "Crank". After familiarizing the crew as to how to work her in reverse he proceeded to sail her backwards around a small island, the commodore then handed her over to the captain with the comment, "I think she sails all right!
    Jay
    PS, I love that fuel cask!


    Jay;

    You are dead on, I think. The next few sails will be playing around with moving the center of effort (sails) back, and the center of lateral resistance forward (daggerboard, which is set back behind the mainmast and designed CE).

    The windage excess was my fault, and due to trying to stay as close to historically accurate as possible. If we do the one that is ~10-12' longer and a beam of 10' vs 8', I will certainly go the route of best sailing qualities over historical Pirate "look".

    At least that's what I'm leaning towards right now. Thank you for your input.

    Rob


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  27. #202
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post
    Jay;

    You are dead on, I think. The next few sails will be playing around with moving the center of effort (sails) back, and the center of lateral resistance forward (daggerboard, which is set back behind the mainmast and designed CE).

    The windage excess was my fault, and due to trying to stay as close to historically accurate as possible. If we do the one that is ~10-12' longer and a beam of 10' vs 8', I will certainly go the route of best sailing qualities over historical Pirate "look".

    At least that's what I'm leaning towards right now. Thank you for your input.

    Rob


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    Just to clarify, we are talking about the bow falling away when sailing right, not just getting caught in irons when coming about? (The picture is taken while coming about, which is possibly confusing things a bit). In other words you have massive lee helm.

    The main mast is the aft one right? If it is, then it seems to me your centreboard is waaaaay too far aft. No wonder she falls off. I think youd need the cenntreboard somewhere between the masts, and closer to the foremast than the aft one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Just to clarify, we are talking about the bow falling away when sailing right, not just getting caught in irons when coming about? (The picture is taken while coming about, which is possibly confusing things a bit). In other words you have massive lee helm.

    The main mast is the aft one right? If it is, then it seems to me your centreboard is waaaaay too far aft. No wonder she falls off. I think youd need the cenntreboard somewhere between the masts, and closer to the foremast than the aft one.


    Phil;

    Yes on all your points. I agree that the daggerboard seems to be too far aft, but I am no designer. I was simply following the plans.


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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    With all those sails, couldn't you simply start removing the forward ones until she balances out?

  30. #205
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    As Jay noted there is a lot of windage, and that combined with a relatively short waterline and flat bottom may put her in irons before she ever gets through the eye of the wind.
    Wearing ship will always work but it takes sea room to do that. Square sails are very gentle wearing through the wind, completely different than jibing a fore and aft sail.
    Of course you might just start that outboard up for a minute if you "have" to tack. I have sailed traditional boats and rigs that had the same problems, and would often resort to pulling an oar on the lee bow to bring the bow through the wind. If we couldn't get the bow through the wind (usually not even trying from fear of being caught without steerage and being knocked down) then nothing for it but to wear around. If the wind and waves were big I would sometimes take down the fore and aft sails until it wore around and then hoist them back up on the other tack.
    All this is pretty routine old "ship stuff" You are going to school with this one. What great fun!

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    Along with what's been said, put any moveable ballast on board well forward and see how that helps. The CLR needs to be moved forward somehow or another.
    -Dave

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    Default Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    As Jay noted there is a lot of windage, and that combined with a relatively short waterline and flat bottom may put her in irons before she ever gets through the eye of the wind.
    Wearing ship will always work but it takes sea room to do that. Square sails are very gentle wearing through the wind, completely different than jibing a fore and aft sail.
    Of course you might just start that outboard up for a minute if you "have" to tack. I have sailed traditional boats and rigs that had the same problems, and would often resort to pulling an oar on the lee bow to bring the bow through the wind. If we couldn't get the bow through the wind (usually not even trying from fear of being caught without steerage and being knocked down) then nothing for it but to wear around. If the wind and waves were big I would sometimes take down the fore and aft sails until it wore around and then hoist them back up on the other tack.
    All this is pretty routine old "ship stuff" You are going to school with this one. What great fun!


    Fang can actually get through a tack usually, but it is not presently an impressive event. Also, a lot of the speed is lost that was on her. We have gotten caught in irons, which was not too much fun, and that tested the forestays out pretty good.

    There is a 6hp tohatsu outboard that sits hidden up under the stern cabin bunks, and can be lowered down a well and started in about 60 seconds. That was put in mainly for emergencies. The 2 electric trolling motors for docking and harbor maneuvering would be easier to use if needed. They can be raised and lowered out of their wells in seconds. I will try to send a stern picture with them down for reference. The goal is not to use them, if possible.



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    Last edited by lothar4550; 08-13-2017 at 07:38 AM.

  33. #208
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post
    Jay;

    You are dead on, I think. The next few sails will be playing around with moving the center of effort (sails) back, and the center of lateral resistance forward (daggerboard, which is set back behind the mainmast and designed CE).



    Rob


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    That is a WTF moment. No wonder she is uncontrollable.
    Your best fix is to build a second dagger board case in forward. Then by juggling with both of them you can really fine tune her.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Along with what's been said, put any moveable ballast on board well forward and see how that helps. The CLR needs to be moved forward somehow or another.


    Woxbox;

    What if we added a second daggerboard forward of the first, to move the center of lateral resistance forward? That could be done this offseason pretty easily, I think (famous last words....).

    If that was a good option, can the position be calculated by taking a side pic of the underwater hull (while on the trailer) to estimate the CLR, and then repeat for the CE from the sails and above water hull? I just made that up, but would love to have some method to estimate accurately before adding or moving daggerboards.

    Thank you for your thoughts. This forum has been incredibly helpful throughout this whole process.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  35. #210
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    Default Re: Pirate ship finally out of the garage and ready for rigging.

    Quote Originally Posted by lothar4550 View Post
    Woxbox;

    What if we added a second daggerboard forward of the first, to move the center of lateral resistance forward? That could be done this offseason pretty easily, I think (famous last words....).

    If that was a good option, can the position be calculated by taking a side pic of the underwater hull (while on the trailer) to estimate the CLR, and then repeat for the CE from the sails and above water hull? I just made that up, but would love to have some method to estimate accurately before adding or moving daggerboards.

    Thank you for your thoughts. This forum has been incredibly helpful throughout this whole process.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Yes that is possible. The benefit of two good sized boards is that you can lift either of them part way to tune the ClR for different points of sailing. E.G. lift the ford one all of the way when running. Adding a gripe or cutwater to the front of the stem might also help.

    Or you could fit leeboards


    Both methods are historically accurate.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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