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Thread: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    If you open this pdf then look at Figure 12, p11 it shoes the resistance of a 'Sharpie' compared to a round bilge hull form by Southampton & Glasgow Universities in 2004.

    http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/23371/1/M01804.pdf

    It only looks at speeds approaching and above hull speed rather than lower value Froude numbers, but shows the simpler flat bottom has less resistance at around hull speed, and the round bilge less at semi displacement speeds.

    The Sharpie hull model was radiused between the top panel and bottom panel and of a very simple shape. The two hulls had the same displacement and length. In practice for the same displacement, a Sharpie hull would be narrower I think and longer in practice which might give further gains.

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 02-21-2014 at 01:29 PM.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Interesting.....I'll have to read it later.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Boston, that design you cannot get out of your head is discussed in Rauel Parker's book, "The Sharpie Book", and he sells the plans for it. The photo shows a boat that may have the same hull, but a different rig. I would go with the original rig which was designed for Long Island Sound. Maybe you know all of this. I have admired this boat too.

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    As many of you know, I've always been an open boat guy, happy to sleep under the starts or a tent. But after a recent longer journey I'm interested in being able to stay out in wet conditions longer so I can work on art projects or read in a relatively dry space, hence am thinking about a smallish sailboat with a cabin. My wife would like to come along on some of these journeys too, so I've sketched up a design brief. Recognize that I am happy to modify and maintain wooden boats, but I'm an adventurer, not a builder.

    One boat that came up on my list was the Norwalk Island Sharpie- 18' model and one recently came up for sale. Hence the research and my finding this old thread (and a few others). It seems that not too many NIS sailors have spoken up, maybe in the intervening years, more of you are on the forum? Are there opinions about this little version of the NIS?

    Here's my criteria:

    Cruising grounds: Lower Columbia Estuary (shallow, sand bars) and Salish Sea from Olympia, WA (muddy- shallow to deep) to Broughton Archipelago BC (rocky - deeper)

    Something wooden that is reasonably available used for about $10K
    Trailerable- variety and no moorage is wonderful
    Light enough to haul with Subaru- not Ford F150
    Probably under 20' so I can keep it at home
    Launch in shallow water
    Can nose up to a beach- I’d prefer not to haul a dinghy
    Cabin with sitting head room that will sleep two
    Rigs in less than 45 minutes
    Split rig
    Small enough to scull
    Adequate storage for two weeks of food gear for two

    What might be better than an NIS?

    -Bruce
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    PS: And can someone tell me the difference between pounding and slapping? (In context of boats )
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    A NIS 18 is close to ideal for your stated purposes. There are others in the same sort of size range but the NIS 18 offers a little more people room. Full disclosure I have not sailed a NIS, but have admired them for years. I sail a Herreshoff Meadowlark. A lot bigger and not easily trailerable. In my experience these flat or nearly flat bottom boats seldom pound or slap, because as soon as they heel, the forward sections form a V shape. They may.....pound or slap at anchor, especially if the bow rises out of the water the way Bolger tended to design his sharpies. Whimbrel does not. there is a thread running here about sailing around the shallow sandy areas......http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...sing-the-Sands ........which features an NIS 18. Another nice feature with chines is that they tend to throw less spray than a more conventional round bilged boat, because the chine either partially or completely lifts clear of the water when heeled.
    If there is an NIS 18 available to you at an affordable price I'd say go for it.
    Last edited by gilberj; 11-05-2019 at 12:34 AM.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    The NIS is good for the job. Also a Chebacco.
    -Dave

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Check out the Port Townsend Pocket Yachters' website. Couple of good candidates at fair prices. Shallow draft, easy to rig, trailerable, comforatable, Salish seaworthy.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Howard Chapelle's monograph on sharpies details how they migrated down the Atlantic coast from Long Island Sound. WB also had a piece on Geoff Kerr's building of an Egret, and I recall several others on the vessel.

    RE: shallow draft, I was fortunate to sail on the DRAKEN from DC back to Mystic last fall. We got into some F7 stuff off the Jersey coast and of course reefed the ship. But what impressed me was how relatively dry and flat she sailed. She only drew 5 feet or so. We were hard on the wind and made buckets of leeway. I know in a conventional deep keel boat we would have been heeled considerably. From the angle of heel and the leeway we were making I suspect that we were skidding and that is one thing that may happen with a properly reefed sharpy, sliding with the gusts instead of heeling. I was certainly surprised.
    Ben Fuller
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  10. #115
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    For most of my life I have sailed assorted keel boats. This has mainly been in near coastal exposed waters, around Nova Scotia, on several of the Great Lakes, and pretty much all over the coastal waters of BC.
    I have had the Meadowlark "Whimbrel" out in the Salish Sea in force 6 and 7 a number of times and force 8 sustained at least once. One of the things that surprised me was how much more steady she is in a seaway, both in pitch and roll, and even in yaw.
    She does not pitch as easily as any of the keel boats. This is most noticeable in a blow when going to windward. Any of the keel boats would make more work of going over the waves. I used to describe it as taking a couple of tries before getting over a wave. Whimbrel on the other hand seems to just rise and fall, hardly noticing the watery lumps trying to slow her down. they don't slow her down much at all, easily maintaining hull speed ~7+. It is not punchy, there is very little spray and no green water and no pounding, when going to windward in 25 to 30 knot winds and short near coastal seas 1.5 to 2 metres high.
    She does not roll...as long as there is a wind to lean on. Rolling is something my keel boats did when running or reaching. It was at least somewhat rhythmic, not particularly unpleasant, but over time it was wearing to the crew. Whimbrel hardly rolls. She moves.....It is not jerky or uncomfortable in any way. She is just steady.
    She does not yaw...she is steady on course. Like many sharpies she is not really quick to turn, pretty slow turning really. You often hear guys talking about the steadiness of a long keel. Whimbrel is more steady on course than any small boat I have ever sailed.
    Whimbrel has a long very shallow 2" ballasted keel ( welded steel box with heavy stuff in it) along the whole length developing into a skeg aft at the transom. The lateral plane is a high aspect leeboard. If you include the weight of the extra thick planked bottom the ballast ratio is about 50% of displacement
    Herreshoff referred to the Meadowlark as a modified sharpie. She more follows the concept of Commodore Munroe (Presto) than any of the traditional working sharpies. It is not really fair to compare the two types. I note that most of the other cruising boats derived from the sharpie are substantially ballasted as well.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    There are Sharpies and there are Sharpies. Commodore Munroe"s "Egret" was claimed by him to be very seaworthy. Modern recreations have been built and if the cockpit was made water tight and self draining it would be even more so.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Great thread. Really enjoyed that 1867 sharpie with the exact rig Bolger put on so many of his designs (and a great one, I loved it on my Black Skimmer).

    I see people mentioning the Norwalk Island 18. I'm thinking about one that's not too far away, and am wondering about the ballast--how much, and made out of what? There's no information on the NIS site, only that the boat weighs in the neighborhood of 1500 lbs which suggests a high percentage of ballast. Maybe someone here knows a bit more about it.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Have a look here http://www.melantho.com/nis18/nis01.aspx

    600 lbs if im not mistaken
    Ragnar B.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Thanks, mizzenman. Found it on page 3, 600 lbs but an extra 200 optional. Damn that's a lot for an 18 foot boat. Makes sense, it's not a beamy boat and has high sides and a kind of narrow bottom.

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    My 18' x 5' CLC Autumn Leaves carries 620 pounds of lead and needs it. It also gives the feel of a bigger boat.
    -Dave

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Wobox--I saw your videos on Facebook and that boat definitely looks stiff and well-submerged, great boat

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    My 18' x 5' CLC Autumn Leaves carries 620 pounds of lead and needs it. It also gives the feel of a bigger boat.
    The video is indeed impressive. How does she do with pounding? Doesn't look like an issue, but inquiring minds want to know!

    -Bruce
    Tales from the land and sea: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com/

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Bruce, So far I haven't encountered any conditions where pounding was a problem or even noticeable. The forefoot stays in the water most of the time. And as Bolger pointed out again and again over the years, when chop develops there's also enough wind to heel these sharpies over, presenting a V bottom to the seas. The other time pounding or slapping can be an issue is at anchor. I've only spent four nights aboard, a couple of them blustery nights, but noise wasn't an issue even although she was tugging at her docklines quite vigorously. I suspect it helps a lot that the ends of the boat below the cockpit sole aft and berth flat forward are stuffed with foam. It's there for flotation, but also prevents the hull from acting like a big drum, as plywood hulls often do. Every boat has it's own sounds, of course, and Terrapin is quieter and more agreeable than I expected. This comes back to the ballast ratio, too, I suspect. The bottom is heavily built and carries all that lead as well as the foam. The net effect is to make it feel less like a plywood box and more like a traditional planked up hull.
    -Dave

  19. #124
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Nice. And did you take her to windward much? How did that work out?
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  20. #125
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    The twin boards are more than enough to hold a tight course to windward. Less water in the face than I expected, too. But with three foot and more of chop, it will toss some water up on the wind.

    I had considered the NIS 18, and would like to know how much different they are. The NIS is wider and deeper. I don't see it as an engineless boat, which is why I took it off my list of options.
    -Dave

  21. #126
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    My Meadowlark, Whimbrel almost never pounds or slaps, even when going to windward in a steep nasty near coastal chop..... I often have sailed to windward in 3+ ft seas, sometimes for 20 or 30 miles at a time. Once the boat is healed over, she presents a "V" shape to the advancing waves, actually deflecting the wave enough downward enough to be effectively drier than comparable boats. When not healed over the forefoot is enough immersed to not slap or pound. She also does not pound or slap while at anchor.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Many sharpies have no more ability to come back from a knockdown than catboats or Wianno Seniors. Usually those that don't combine mighty near no ballast with lot's of open space for water to get into the hull once the rail is under. But there's a wholly different sort of sharpie that's perfectly seaworthy for long-shore voyaging, like a straight hop from Long Island Sound to Newfoundland.

    I have not seen stability curves for any of Parker's boats but I've studied the plans as available on the internet and also looked at the stabiity of other sharpie types ranging from the Presto to Pete Culler's to LFH's Meadow Lark and such. As LFH points out, the type does not really have ultimate stability and it will not come back from mast deep in the water. However, they can be sailed very hard. Since these boats have excellent watertight integrity - small cockpits, centered hatches and such - you can dare to sail rail at the water and if caught by a gust that drags a spreader in the water you'll come back.

    In ocean storms, it's not the wind alone that puts the boat over. It's the wind coupled with extreme seas. Against those, the sharpie type is in trouble. For ocean crossings you need a boat that can withstand unexpected weather. For a thousand miles or so not more than a couple hundred miles off-shore, you can pick your weather and be acceptably safe.

    G'luck
    I agree with Ian. In open water, it is the seas that will roll a boat. This I think is now settled and accepted. Hereís a link to a simple explanation - itís not the one that I was looking for but it will do.

    https://safe-skipper.com/capsize-und...ing-the-risks/
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  23. #128
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    I've never been able to work out why Parker's boats have such low freeboard near the cockpit. Sure, there's a tiny saving of weight and windage, but in bad conditions it would seem to greatly increase the chances of filling the cockpit etc, and would probably reduce stability since the centre of buoyancy is going to move inboard.

  24. #129
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I agree with Ian. In open water, it is the seas that will roll a boat. This I think is now settled and accepted. Here’s a link to a simple explanation - it’s not the one that I was looking for but it will do.

    https://safe-skipper.com/capsize-und...ing-the-risks/
    That link's diagram that categorises ALL heavy displacement boats as having a higher LPS than ALL light boats is extremely dodgy!

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Not all "sharpires" are created equal, and depends on how one might even define a sharpie. Chris Morejohns "hogfish" is well proven with Atlantic and Pacific voyages, though if i recall, he once called it a large "skiff" than a sharpie, but the flat bottom and almost vertical sides are familiar. I believe much of the righting moment on Hogfish is due to the high freeboard and substantial inside ballast, certainly not a sharpie in the traditional sense. He does (Chris) point out that a submerged fore-foot is one thing that he believes is important, and one of things that Bolger never did on his sharpie types.
    Given the current shallow body skimming dishes that race around the world and across oceans these days, i think almost any sharpie, if well constructed, can voyage offshore, given the appropriate attention to design to ensure righting ability and water tight/downflooding integrity.
    Lesser craft than Daves Terrapin have crossed the Atlantic, but that is not a suggestion that anyone should.

  26. #131
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Boreal yachts are sharpie-ish.


  27. #132
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    I'm almost embarrassed to ask this, but here goes...

    I've always had small boats with a rounded bilge and various degrees of tumblehome/flare on the sides. I've sailed a bit in keelboats that also were rounded and flatish.

    Then I've rowed dorries, sailed a Laser, also a very flat broad bottom... all had different feelings, but generally seemed quite functional in their own way.

    What I don't understand is where the flatish bottom/sides affects performance versus aesthetics... I've seen some of the technical diagrams, but in a really practical way, can someone who has used both types of boats share their experience?

    Thanks,
    -Bruce
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  28. #133
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Bruce, i have sailed offshore in both round bilge and single chine yachts. In my experience, they both get you there. Sometimes there may be occasional thuds in a flattish section forward on a chine boat, but even round bilge can slam. I have found roll comfort is better in chine boats, at least the ones i have sailed in. I am not averse to single chine boats, but sometimes they are not asthetically pleasing as a round hull form. In the speed range of most boats, in the same size, not a vast difference. My 2 pennies worth.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Nope. Too many variables. The flat bottom may be quite near the surface and be either designed row easily having a nice rocker to the bottom or to plane under relatively low power with a straight run.

    In a sailboat such as the Lightening class sloop, the semi-flat bottom was designed to be the foundation of a fairly stiff hull with good displacement speed and the ability to plane all buildable by home builders. Heck of a design brief brilliantly realized in 1938.

    The larger and more powerful Raven class sloop (almost 24% higher sail area/displacement) with her rounded chines but firm flattish bottom is far faster in either displacement or planing mode.

  30. #135
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    What I don't understand is where the flatish bottom/sides affects performance versus aesthetics.
    Simplistic, in-a-vacuum answer that fails to take individual boat context and intended mission and environment into account:

    : A flat bottom doesn't cut the water as readily; a V shape slices the water more easily; these factors become more important at planing speeds.
    : straight sides don't add any stability to the boat as it heels; a rounded ( or flared) topsides may do so. Tumblehome allows a boat to heel more than its straight-sided counterpart before shipping water. It may also facilitate access to the water, such as making it easier to paddle from a canoe.

    Kevin
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  31. #136
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bateau View Post
    What I don't understand is where the flatish bottom/sides affects performance versus aesthetics...
    In our context for our kinds of boats, Bruce, the biggest problem I found is how the chines dig in when crossing eddylines, in a chop, and in the chowder of a tide rip. Boats with corners are simply more grabby, making them less forgiving and more exhausting to steer on a day when it’s getting big.

    People who boat in ways where seething currents, strong tide rips, and long, long days in a boat aren’t standard procedure can be less concerned about it. The changeable labyrinth of the deep and narrow Salish Sea or Shetland Islands group is a very different environment than a shallow open bay on the trailing edge of a continental land mass. Horses for courses.

  32. #137
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Also, aesthetics is everything! I thought you knew that.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Firstly, I'd have to say that Seaworthiness is simply whether the vessel is suitable for the intended voyage. This is accompanied by whether the crew is sufficient and competent. .....so a small skiff is suitable for a sheltered water trip, say across to a small island for a picnic.....
    I suppose we are talking about seaworthy, like being at sea here.....
    The normal traditional sharpie was open and unballasted. they were pretty narrow...normally ~6-1 beam length ratio. This I presume was intended to diminish the cross-flow action around the chine and reducing the tendency to catch and cut is as James has described.
    The sharpies or shallow body boats here described are not traditional sharpies. they all use a combination of enclosed volume and weight (mostly involving ballast) to achieve an adequate range of stability.
    The Norwalk Island sharpies are reputed to have an impressive range of stability....somewhat greater than 130*. This is achieved partially by ballast, partially by the highly crowned cabin roof, and partially be the buoyancy imparted by the masts as they immerse.
    The Presto 30 is advertised to have a AVS (Angle of Vanishing Stability) around 135* ....pretty much the same reason.
    There are a raft of 'mini 6.5 little race boats making long race passages...all shallow body boats
    After the '79 Fastnet and a couple of Sydney Hobart race disasters, we have some idea of what range of stability is recommended for boats sailing offshore. The truth is once the mast is immersed you have about a 50% chance of righting with the rig intact, so you are really into a survival situation. I think the recommended AVS is about ensuring you still have a substantial righting lever when the mast hits the water, and you can reliably recover. Pretty nearly all of the small boats which are recommended as suitable for offshore exceed the nominal 130*, perhaps 140* or greater. None of the ones I have checked are self righting to 180* or fully self righting.

    Someone here said that not all sharpies are the same.....I wonder whether simply using the term is suggestive of something cheap and nasty. Certainly a box shaped cross section which has the CG in the geographical centre or above will not recover from a 90* knockdown. Once you change the basic parameters, by adding ballast, and-or playing with the enclosed volume, you have a different beast all together.
    Ian brought up the LFH Meadowlark.....This boat has about 50% of its displacement as ballast along the bottom ( including the very heavy wood bottom) LFH apparently sailed on a Meadowlark (Loon I think) and spoke of her being too stiff....not as a criticism so much as comment that a lot less ballast might have been acceptable. I doubt he ever calculated the actual stability of any of his small cruising boats......Naval Architects did not do that for most small ships, at that time as it was laborious and not required by the regulatory bodies. They just used experience and similar vessels as guides.
    Seaworthiness is of course not just about stability.

  34. #139
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post

    Someone here said that not all sharpies are the same.....I wonder whether simply using the term is suggestive of something cheap and nasty. Certainly a box shaped cross section which has the CG in the geographical centre or above will not recover from a 90* knockdown. Once you change the basic parameters, by adding ballast, and-or playing with the enclosed volume, you have a different beast all together.
    That would entirely depend on what you believe a sharpie to be . If they were historically cheap boats to build, then why not, the nasty id dependent on personal taste.

    Many traditionalists might take offence that Meadow lark is considered a sharpie, just for having outside ballast. And what of Bolgers Jessie Cooper, a square section boat with high topsides to ensure righting from any angle ? I mention these as it is the designers themselves who have used the term "sharpie", or indeed modified sharpie.

    Getting back to the original premise if sharpies are sea worthy, one would first have to give in detail exactly what kind of sharpie one is talking about, and perhaps what they assume the meaning of seaworthy to be. The parameters are wide open.

  35. #140
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Having sailed several thousand miles on a Bolger Jessie Cooper and even more on a larger Bolger sharpie I'll go out on a limb and say it safely passes the seaworthy test. That said, sharpies are different boats and comparing them to what passes for a norm where boats are concerned is something of a madness inducing exercise.

    My current "normal" boat designed by Bill Lapworth is as seaworthy as our Loose Moose 2 but they are still very different animals. Given a choice for another ocean crossing I'd lean towards the sharpie because I think they have a bit more advantage but it is still a close call.

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