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Thread: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    GilberJ, when I use the word "sharpie", I am referring to simplified, hard-chine boats. I don't think your Meadowlark is correctly classified as a "sharpie". I don't have any objections at all to long, light, narrow round-bilged boats. It's those big flat panels and hard chine specifically, and the operational characteristics they impose that I find unsatisfactory.

    I think Oughtred's Haiku is a gorgeous sharpie, but I wouldn't even want one of those because I don't like how sharpies sail in lumpy water. Now maybe if I lived in shallow water Florida. . . .? Naw! Who am I kidding? If I lived in Florida, I'd move because that's way too far a drive to get to a Salish Sea launch ramp.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    GilberJ, when I use the word "sharpie", I am referring to simplified, hard-chine boats. I don't think your Meadowlark is correctly classified as a "sharpie". I don't have any objections at all to long, light, narrow round-bilged boats. It's those big flat panels and hard chine specifically, and the operational characteristics they impose that I find unsatisfactory.

    I think Oughtred's Haiku is a gorgeous sharpie, but I wouldn't even want one of those because I don't like how sharpies sail in lumpy water. Now maybe if I lived in shallow water Florida. . . .? Naw! Who am I kidding? If I lived in Florida, I'd move because that's way too far a drive to get to a Salish Sea launch ramp.
    The Meadowlark is not a round-bilged boat. It is an arc-bottomed, hard-chined sharpie, like a big Lightning.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Not picking on you, John. But I've read this in various places researching the origins of the sharpie and I would suggest a look at this thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Long-Island%29)

    In it there are images of dozens of tong boats, built and used by people you can still speak with today, complete with pictures of people tonging off of them, and not one of those boats has a round transom. Also, other boats used for tonging, the Yankee Skiff aka Staten Island Skiff, did not have a round transo,

    My guess, and that's all it is, about the old sharpie workboats round transom would be that it was a custom carried over by some builders from the round bilged boats they were used to building. In those boats, that type of stern reduced bouyancy aft, and thus reduced pitching.

    Kevin
    Well, maybe the story I've been told is wrong. I didn't see any pix of people tonging from sailing vessels. Could be there is a difference in that powerboats are easier to position where you want them. On the other hand, the Great South Bay oyster boats didn't have round sterns, so maybe it's a myth.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Gliberj,When coasting along in your Meadowlark, does she slap unduly, does she feel especially tender in a gust more than you'd expect, does she make use of her long waterline for added speed over other similar weight shorter boat, how high does she point in reasonable conditions, how strong is the wind when you reef her, ever have the rudder out the water, and how does stable does she feel downwind on a run?




    Ed
    Cheers

    Whimbrel is a LFH Meadowlark, pretty much as originally drawn. 33',x 8'1" x 1'6"...~8000lbs+ displacement. There are a few minor differences. Whimbrel floats a couple of inches deeper than the design.

    Whimbrel seldom, almost never slaps or pounds, certainly no more frequently than any of the other (keel) boats I have had.

    With ~45% of the total displacement as ballast, mostly outside. Whimbrel is not tender by any measure. Actually she almost too stiff. I will stand up as well or better than most comparable keelboats around me in a blow. I have carried full sail to windward in a clear force 7 near gale 27 - 32 knots. We would get a gust and she would heal over, rail under, accelerate and bring the rail up again, hitting well over 7 knots, possibly over 8 knots for extended moments.

    I normally reef somewhere like force 5, winds <20 Knots, not because we are over pressed, but because by reefing I sail a little straighter and go just as fast. Just easier all round.

    Going to windward....in any decent wind we can tack through 90 degrees (point 45 degrees) but in truth it is not the most efficient angle for going to windward. The good angle is more like pointing 50 degrees. She is without question the easiest boat I have ever sailed to work to windward I have ever sailed. I often do coastal passages to windward. When there is a sea running she does not pitch and lunge like many traditional keel boats, the long strait lines keep the motion pretty stready.
    Going to windward....in light airs, is disappointing. If the boat speed is less than about 2.5 knots the leeboards stall. Having minimal area relatively they need boat speed to generate lift, much like an aeroplane taking off needs to get enough speed before it will lift off. With the leeboards in a stall we slow down significantly. The only solution is to bear off and get a little more speed.

    Reaching and running she is very steady. She does not roll. Whimbrel can sail hands-free on any course, including broad reaching or on a dead run, with the sails wing and wing. Slight adjustment in the mizzen sheet accommodates surprisingly subtle course changes. I have sailed down a narrow channel 100M wide with sail sheet adjustment only.

    Whimbrel is generally fast. I will pass most similar sized boats on any point of sail, in any reasonable wind. I once made a beam reaching passage 32 miles in about 20-25 knots gusting with an average speed of 7.5 knots, top speed achieved for a few seconds 10.7 knots in a near plane. I have made a number of windward passages with average boat speed ~6 knots.

    Downsides????obviously light wind performance, particularly trying to get to windward. Maneuverability...she is ponderous to turn, will accaisionally not get through a tack. This is also a problem working under power, say for docking. You need the leeboards down to prevent the wind blowing you sideways, and you need boat speed. I used to dock my keel boats under sail regularly, not Whimbrel.......Its not an issue for me but ~4.5 feet of headroom in the cabin can be a downside.

    I have never had the rudder out of the water except when I took it off for repair.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    GilberJ, when I use the word "sharpie", I am referring to simplified, hard-chine boats. I don't think your Meadowlark is correctly classified as a "sharpie". I don't have any objections at all to long, light, narrow round-bilged boats. It's those big flat panels and hard chine specifically, and the operational characteristics they impose that I find unsatisfactory.

    I think Oughtred's Haiku is a gorgeous sharpie, but I wouldn't even want one of those because I don't like how sharpies sail in lumpy water. Now maybe if I lived in shallow water Florida. . . .? Naw! Who am I kidding? If I lived in Florida, I'd move because that's way too far a drive to get to a Salish Sea launch ramp.
    Hi James, As John W pointed out the Meadowlark is a chine boat with an arched bottom, like a lightning. The bow is fully immersed unlike most Bolger designs. I know what you say about chines and the action in the water......I have built several flatty skiffs that were like trying to heard cats when rowing across the harbour. I suspect the chines, particularly forward are a principal cause of Whimbrel to be slow to turn. Other than that, the chines are good at keeping spray off the deck, slapping it back down as it were. Certainly I do not get Whimbrel ducking and jiving as the chines dig in, as the smaller skiffs did. I do not actually notice them in service, beyond the sluggish maneuoverability, which is probably more due to the long lines and fairly small rudder as much as the chines.

    I agree about living in Florida.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    So back to definitions....
    Sharpie, Flatty, Skiff, Bateaux, Dory, Pirogue.....
    Modified, Nonpareil.....or perhaps a double adjective like dory-skiff.....
    What do you think????

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    aren't these Open 60's just big keel sharpies?

    here's one being certified to come up from an inversion test:



    Bruce Schwab built and completed the Vendee challenge in one that he built out of plywood:

    Last edited by Paul Pless; 04-25-2013 at 07:00 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    well, you're stretching. But you're not the first to do so.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    Cheers

    Whimbrel is a LFH Meadowlark, pretty much as originally drawn. 33',x 8'1" x 1'6"...~8000lbs+ displacement. There are a few minor differences. Whimbrel floats a couple of inches deeper than the design.

    Whimbrel seldom, almost never slaps or pounds, certainly no more frequently than any of the other (keel) boats I have had.

    With ~45% of the total displacement as ballast, mostly outside. Whimbrel is not tender by any measure. Actually she almost too stiff. I will stand up as well or better than most comparable keelboats around me in a blow. I have carried full sail to windward in a clear force 7 near gale 27 - 32 knots. We would get a gust and she would heal over, rail under, accelerate and bring the rail up again, hitting well over 7 knots, possibly over 8 knots for extended moments.

    I normally reef somewhere like force 5, winds <20 Knots, not because we are over pressed, but because by reefing I sail a little straighter and go just as fast. Just easier all round.

    Going to windward....in any decent wind we can tack through 90 degrees (point 45 degrees) but in truth it is not the most efficient angle for going to windward. The good angle is more like pointing 50 degrees. She is without question the easiest boat I have ever sailed to work to windward I have ever sailed. I often do coastal passages to windward. When there is a sea running she does not pitch and lunge like many traditional keel boats, the long strait lines keep the motion pretty stready.
    Going to windward....in light airs, is disappointing. If the boat speed is less than about 2.5 knots the leeboards stall. Having minimal area relatively they need boat speed to generate lift, much like an aeroplane taking off needs to get enough speed before it will lift off. With the leeboards in a stall we slow down significantly. The only solution is to bear off and get a little more speed.

    Reaching and running she is very steady. She does not roll. Whimbrel can sail hands-free on any course, including broad reaching or on a dead run, with the sails wing and wing. Slight adjustment in the mizzen sheet accommodates surprisingly subtle course changes. I have sailed down a narrow channel 100M wide with sail sheet adjustment only.

    Whimbrel is generally fast. I will pass most similar sized boats on any point of sail, in any reasonable wind. I once made a beam reaching passage 32 miles in about 20-25 knots gusting with an average speed of 7.5 knots, top speed achieved for a few seconds 10.7 knots in a near plane. I have made a number of windward passages with average boat speed ~6 knots.

    Downsides????obviously light wind performance, particularly trying to get to windward. Maneuverability...she is ponderous to turn, will accaisionally not get through a tack. This is also a problem working under power, say for docking. You need the leeboards down to prevent the wind blowing you sideways, and you need boat speed. I used to dock my keel boats under sail regularly, not Whimbrel.......Its not an issue for me but ~4.5 feet of headroom in the cabin can be a downside.

    I have never had the rudder out of the water except when I took it off for repair.
    Overall, with her advantages of draft, she sounds like an extremely fine boat. Well done Mr Herreshoff!

    I impressed that she's stiff and she sounds well balanced and can reef late. Fast too!

    Do you think boats with twin offset centreboards arranged like Haiku would be better or worse than your bilge board arrangement overall?

    Ed

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    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Overall, with her advantages of draft, she sounds like an extremely fine boat. Well done Mr Herreshoff!

    I impressed that she's stiff and she sounds well balanced and can reef late. Fast too!

    Do you think boats with twin offset centreboards arranged like Haiku would be better or worse than your bilge board arrangement overall?

    Ed
    Functionally twin CB's would be better I think for sailing. A little less drag and not requiring as much handling when tacking. The twin CB's will definitely take up more room in the cabin. I'd probably not use twin CB's, keep the leeboards. The biggest advantage is the strength of the whole structure. Once in a winter storm Whimbrel broke loose from the mooring and went ashore on shelving rock, pounding in the surf for over an hour before she was pulled off. There was no damage beyond some paint lost on the bottom. If she had had one or two board penetrations, I think the weakness in the structure would have finished her. She is very strong.
    The leeboards are not really a problem......shortly before tacking you drop the windward board, and after changing tacks you can heave up the other, new windward board when you are ready....there is no time critical elements to this. When short taking I leave them both down. This is less of a problem than say tacking a big jib/genoa, or handling running backstays.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Centerboard cases can be strong, adding a box structure with some depth to it.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Gilberj,

    Thanks. Reading about Meadowlark, LFH says the slight round and submerged chine should prevent slapping, and the use of bilge boards was to allow uninterrupted frames "to be strong enough for any sort of stranding". It sounds like he got that right. Interestingly, he says he made her draw 1.5 ft not 1ft, simply to provide adequate depth to turn a prop.

    Gilberj, how is your Whimbrel's bottom constructed, is it as plan? How has that construction faired over time since she was built?

    (To others without the book, Sensible Cruising Designs, she has a slightly rounded, shallow V bottom to a single chine, and Herrehoff went for short gaffs too.)

    On another note, looking at this model of Oughtred's Haiku by DavidF, her twin offset centreboards are incorporated into the sides of her interior furniture forward. Looking aft the centrecases are open? into the cockpit. Does the cockpit self drain through the open top?







    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 04-26-2013 at 05:12 AM.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Oughtred's Haiku makes an interesting study in boat design choises.

    Board cases certainly take up accomodaton room, cleverly handled in this design, and weaken the boat, which matters not at all in such a small light boat where it's easy to engineer adequage structure.

    It would be interesting to know for sure, but it looks as if Haiku was meant to work to weather with both boards down. With such a high foil they should not interfere with each other the way poorly designed twin keels do. And that's as needs be since you really can't get a board up when on a beat or tight reach since the water pressure will bind the board against the trunk.

    Two good reasons for going with bilge boards in this model come down to:

    - Less practical intrusion of the trunks than a single necessarily bigger trunk to hold a board of adequate area to be a single;

    - Allows for narrow vertical foils, since leeboards would point in too much in this hull and leeboards can't be conveniently rigged to point straight down without a lot of complex engineering of the hinges.

    Leeboards have the advantages of taking up no space inside, of allowing for a very strong hull (why do you think those dutch barges have lee boards rather than center or bilge boards?) and really are easy in short-tacking since the unused weather board can be allowed to 'broken wing' to little detriment in speed.

    As with the choise of boxers or briefs, it depends.

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    The two boards here appear small in area. I think I'd make them symetrical, so I could use them together in light airs. The rocker will allow handier maneuovering. Is she ballasted???I'd expect so she has a relatively narrow bottom. I have a particular interest in these Egret variations, and Haiku is certainly a favourite.
    Whimbrels bottom is constructed pretty much as designed. LFH specified I think 1 7/8" planking on the bottom, certainly that is how Whimbrel is planked with red cedar rather than the long leaf yellow pine or other eastern wood. The cedar is not as heavy as an eastern wood would be, but it does have a resiliance that almost definitely contributed to there being no damage when she drove ashore. The frames inside are~ 2"x2.5" section oak, a true fair arch from chine to chine, right across the bottom, spaced I think 2 ft. Between the arched frames and the heavy planking this is one very strong bottom. LFH designed a external lead keel in sections, stretching over about 20 feet of length ( I do not have the book here to reference). Whimbrel has a steel welded box filled with (something??) This steel box is about 2" deep amidships and about 15" or 18" wide, wide enough to sit comfortably when on the hard. When she went aground in the storm she mainly bounced on this steel box keel, but was also tossed onto both bilges and chines as well. Whimbrel has some inside ballast, I am not sure how much as I have never removed it, I'll guess about 700lbs which is under the forward cabin, for trim presumably. Whimbrel floats with a couple of extra inches of trim over the design, ie on the designed waterline at the stem and about 3" deeper aft. I'll guess the total ballast is a little more than the design.

    In "Mudlarks Ghosts", Ian Scott suggested the Meadowlark would be better having a chine log. I understand his point, but I certainly have no issues with any part of the bottom or the chines. From May to early October I MAY have to pump the bilge once or twice. Over the winter it is perhaps once a month for pumping ( the float switch on the electric pump is shut off (allows me to know exactly what is happening).

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Thanks Gilberj.

    LFH's Meadowlark design and construction appears well proven with Whimbrel.

    Haiku has 771 kg lead under her bottom. Her designed displacement is 1950kg and she's designed for 2 adults and two small children. Iain seems to works on about 80kg adult, so I'd say 250kg for people and some equipment maybe 300kg total? If so she's maybe 1650kg or so of boat? LOA 30' 0", Beam: 7' 9 ", Draft 1', & Sail area 337.00 sqft. She's smaller and lighter than Meadowlark, with a rockered but flat bottom, as apposed to Meadowlarks curved/ shallow V aforded by her longitudinal planking.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 04-26-2013 at 12:11 PM.

  16. #86
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    I built a NIS23, as my first boat no less. Other than my awful build quality, the main drawback was that the cabin design was terrible, bisected by a huge CB trunk and nowhere to sit comfortably. Now my "big boat" is a Bolger Dovekie & unlike hard chine boats it doesn't have all the ill manners that James describes.

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    I've built Stambaugh's Windward 28 - modified hard-chined sharpie - 1200lbs bilge ballast. Although I'm still learning to sail her (she's more competent than I am) - I can say that she does not pound. Her bow remains in the water - and from the few times I've seen her thru moderate waves, she just slices straight thru them - actually doesn't seem to notice them.

    Gilberj - thanks for posting your thoughts on Wimbrel - I suspect mine to be similar - we'll see, as I further learn to sail her and test some rigging adjustments/aids.
    TZ
    "One can say with certainty that he is not with us at present. It is worth adding, however, that he himself did not always understand what time ought to be considered the present." - Laurus, Eugene Vodolazkin.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by TomZ View Post
    I've built Stambaugh's Windward 28 - modified hard-chined sharpie - 1200lbs bilge ballast. Although I'm still learning to sail her (she's more competent than I am) - I can say that she does not pound. Her bow remains in the water - and from the few times I've seen her thru moderate waves, she just slices straight thru them - actually doesn't seem to notice them.
    I have sailed the Meadowlark frequently in seas to 1.5 metres, and twice in seas approaching 3 metres. When close to the wind, occaisionally (perhaps every 10 or 20 minutes) a wave will slap the healed bottom forward, sending a little shudder through the boat. This is the only time I experience this. I now tend, as I said above to reef earlier now and get slapped less often by sailing with less heal, while still going about as fast. At anchor, including weathering a gale in a less than perfectly protected harbour, I have not experienced slapping or pounding it at all.

    I do not have a lot of experience in sharpies in general and cannot speak for others. I don't think the shallow draft is a particular advantage in the waters I sail in. I had been looking at this design for probably 45 years before a good example became available to me at a price I could afford. The rest as they say is history. I have no regrets.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Seems we are discussing many different things, a meadowlark with a curved bottom is not a really a sharpie in my mind, shallow draft and hard chined yes. Size also has a lot to do with performance, we have sailing scows that crossed the Tasman, but we are talking heavy displacement and perhaps you could stretch it to say that the flat bottom means a sharpie, but not really! Thin water areas tend to produce what I would refer to as a sharpie. I am sure there are flat bottom designs that are the exception to the rule, but generally the more complex to build rounder bilge hull shapes sail and handle better size for size, have more room and also cost more!
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Seems we are discussing many different things, a meadowlark with a curved bottom is not a really a sharpie in my mind, shallow draft and hard chined yes.
    I tend to agree, I usually refer to her as a 'modified sharpie' My comments are in response to queries, and is certainly relevent to the OP question. A standard traditional sharpie might be considered seaworthy, but may require some qualifiers, such as competent crew, perhaps partially or fully loaded, and what-not.
    I also tend to agree with the argument about a more developed shape, probably out performing she simple box shape. Your comment about cost is a major consideration. In my case Whimbrel was a fraction of the price for me to purchase relatively to an H28 to a similar standard available at the same time.

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    I have never been out of sight of land so I don't know. But I bought Haiku's plans and I built the model shown above to test some of these questions. I'm no scientist so I don't know how to really make the comparison between a scaled working model and the big one on big water. What I noticed is that the worst slapping was when the model was hobby horsing. But, on the right angle of attack, the boat was incredibly level. I took a video.
    the short version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XLmSYw6Q5E
    the long version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7cKXQNBG6s

    Before I bought the plans I called Iain and asked him some of these questions. He said the boat would go to Hawaii. Which is a pretty strong recommendation.

    I have a small sharpie (Hylan's Chesapeake) and I only have slapping problems on mountain-rimmed lakes where the wind creates crazy chop. On the ocean away from turbulent winds, there was no real problem.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidF View Post
    But I bought Haiku's plans and I built the model shown above to test some of these questions. I'm no scientist so I don't know how to really make the comparison between a scaled working model and the big one on big water. What I noticed is that the worst slapping was when the model was hobby horsing. But, on the right angle of attack, the boat was incredibly level. I took a video.
    Nice Model....How did you do the ballasting for the model??

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    I tried two ways. Lead on the sole and lead on the keel. The lead on the keel improved the righting movement in gusts (surprise!). If the wind never pushed the gunnel down under, ballast on the sole was fine. With the removable cabin top, water leaked in when the gunnel dipped. I also got frustrated with the maths so the scantlings aren't to code so this model says nothing about weight distribution. The hull form, however, says happy sailing.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Great video.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    +1 on the great video but you should really fire that sailmaker. What a horrible set on the sails! Hope you know I'm just kidding. Enjoyed the video very much. Thanks, Kenjamin

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    It is really hard to get a 4 corner sail to set when it comes from a flat sheet of material. I have tried several times on several models and was never really satisfied. I tended to fall back on 3 corner sails with no roach. They don't set a whole lot better but look better at least.
    The alternative would be going more complex and expensive.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    The two boards here appear small in area. I think I'd make them symetrical, so I could use them together in light airs. The rocker will allow handier maneuovering. Is she ballasted???I'd expect so she has a relatively narrow bottom. I have a particular interest in these Egret variations, and Haiku is certainly a favourite.
    Whimbrels bottom is constructed pretty much as designed. LFH specified I think 1 7/8" planking on the bottom, certainly that is how Whimbrel is planked with red cedar rather than the long leaf yellow pine or other eastern wood. The cedar is not as heavy as an eastern wood would be, but it does have a resiliance that almost definitely contributed to there being no damage when she drove ashore. The frames inside are~ 2"x2.5" section oak, a true fair arch from chine to chine, right across the bottom, spaced I think 2 ft. Between the arched frames and the heavy planking this is one very strong bottom. LFH designed a external lead keel in sections, stretching over about 20 feet of length ( I do not have the book here to reference). Whimbrel has a steel welded box filled with (something??) This steel box is about 2" deep amidships and about 15" or 18" wide, wide enough to sit comfortably when on the hard. When she went aground in the storm she mainly bounced on this steel box keel, but was also tossed onto both bilges and chines as well. Whimbrel has some inside ballast, I am not sure how much as I have never removed it, I'll guess about 700lbs which is under the forward cabin, for trim presumably. Whimbrel floats with a couple of extra inches of trim over the design, ie on the designed waterline at the stem and about 3" deeper aft. I'll guess the total ballast is a little more than the design.

    In "Mudlarks Ghosts", Ian Scott suggested the Meadowlark would be better having a chine log. I understand his point, but I certainly have no issues with any part of the bottom or the chines. From May to early October I MAY have to pump the bilge once or twice. Over the winter it is perhaps once a month for pumping ( the float switch on the electric pump is shut off (allows me to know exactly what is happening).
    I've been reading along and thought I'd throw out an observation. One is that the take up on cedar is far far greater than the take up on Yellow pine. So the weight is misleading once the boat is pickled sufficiently to prevent leaks in a traditional planked hull. Personally were I to build a sharpie it would be in ply, just for this reason.

    cheers and very interesting thread

    cheers

    PS
    to bad there's not a power sharpie thread, specifically one that discussed box keels VS traditional. Kinda like Raul Parkers designs but with some modification.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Good point about the sponge effect.....Your point about building with ply is totally valid for a trailer boat but not for a boat that live 265 in the water. The extra weight is an advantage to stability and strength (swelled planks pressing together to make a stronger unit). Your ply bottom would not have survived the stranding that Whimbrel did.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    I've worked with ply a lot and your right, cedar is far more flexible and would likely not splinter the way ply might under those conditions. Cedar is remarkably resilient stuff.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    I think 1 3/4" or 1 7/8" cedar on oak frames in an arch will be substantially stronger than say 3/4" or 1" ply on straight frames, though a substantial layer of glass will help. Assuming the plan is to not drive ashore in a storm and torture test the structure.... the ply bottom will not be as heavy either, which was certainly a big reason why it was designed in this way. Nevertheless I have thought about redesigning the Meadowlark for ply construction. Despite LFH's distain for the material ( he did design a few boats for ply construction ( H 14 includes a reference as one possible choice and Sailski is planked with ply) Meadowlark seems a good fit with relatively small modification to the shape. Certainly Allen Vaitses built a slew of them with I presume ply and glass. I might consider fat head sails rather than the short gaffs.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    I can't let this thread continue without posting one of the prettiest sharpie/yacht designs ever. Probably impractical on a lot of levels, but she sure is a pretty boat. This pic after a bit of neglect before being auctioned.

    From Boatbuilding, page 56, Plate 2. Lines of a 36-Foot Modified Sharpie



    Agreed, this boat is just beautiful. I'm thinking a couple linear actuators and a pop top would make it more enjoyable on an extended trip.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    ........

    I'm always attracted to Haiku. I see alot of striaght lines on the molds, under that pretty sheer, which would be a sinch with my tracksaw. Also Just one plank per side! etc. I can see that this type for the weight gives you alot of length and quick building. The old timers were making use of wide American wood boards available then, now with plywood we have that option easy again.

    I like the ultra shallow draft, apart from cruising, it makes mooring and trailering easier. There's a bar at Christchurch which would give a longer window. Also somewhere with reefs, the ultra shallow draft gets you over a coral ledge at high tide, I'm assuming. .................

    I like all this, and the review in Watercraft of Haiku, commented that she sailed well but there was little detail. The video and pictures of Iain's Haiku model, look very attractive. She's also stayless which helps trailing etc.

    So, could anybody who has sailed one similar, comment on how they feel and perform? I realise the draft and 'simplicity' of constructional arrangement might mean some compromise, but funny things happen with boats with length and weight, and its not at all entirely predictable. These boats evolved in the sea not on a computer, so I'd be inclined to think they work. What they might loose in depth, might be gained in length...

    I'd have to say a 1.5 ton 30ft Sharpie of the Haiku/ Egret type needs comparing to a shorter 22ft 'normal' boat of similar weight/ cost of materials and construction time.

    Has anybody sailed one, who can comment to us that haven't, how they feel and act, comparing to something shorter of the same weight and material/ building time but more normal/ typical, in say bay conditions Force 3? Ed
    The coral ledges (crests / crowns) I've played around on allow for more than ultra-shallow draft, and generally accomodate the daggerboard on my Mirror, at high tide - I figure that up to 2' and some care easily does the job, even 2'6" - but cruising over lagoon coral or resting on the sand and getting out without a tender is quite a good reason for me to be thinking Haiku - I've had my eyes on Haiku for a while as well - and am especially taken by that comment about "go to Hawaii" - for real? Some surety on that might even sell me on it for a bed & breakfast cruiser - prefer to lose the stays though

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidF View Post
    I have never been out of sight of land so I don't know. But I bought Haiku's plans and I built the model shown above to test some of these questions. I'm no scientist so I don't know how to really make the comparison between a scaled working model and the big one on big water. What I noticed is that the worst slapping was when the model was hobby horsing. But, on the right angle of attack, the boat was incredibly level. I took a video.
    the short version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XLmSYw6Q5E
    the long version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7cKXQNBG6s

    Before I bought the plans I called Iain and asked him some of these questions. He said the boat would go to Hawaii. Which is a pretty strong recommendation.

    I have a small sharpie (Hylan's Chesapeake) and I only have slapping problems on mountain-rimmed lakes where the wind creates crazy chop. On the ocean away from turbulent winds, there was no real problem.
    Without any experience of sharpie sailing I would have thought that it acted like a V bottom unless sailing flat, and that a V bottom would slap more aside from when sailing flat.

    Did you ask Iain about the stays?
    Last edited by Sayla; 05-02-2013 at 02:39 AM.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    It was a while ago that we spoke but I think I recall he was disappointed in the changes made in the Haiku that appeared in Watercraft, including the rig.
    (edited to add: the boat in the article had stays but the drawn boat does not. The feeling, I recall, was the stays were an unnecessary complication and the bendy mast is part of staying upright.)
    Last edited by DavidF; 05-02-2013 at 04:37 PM.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    ran across this photo while searching an old archive, thought to add it here. . .



    The "Nettie", an expedition boat on the Truckee River, western Nevada, in 1867. (Timothy O'Sullivan/National Archives and Records Administration)
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Thanks..... looks somewhat Bolger-ish I think. It seem to me this photo was posted on the Forum before.....

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