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Thread: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Traditional designs incorporate years of experience and practical considerations. The Precision 16 shares almost nothing with a traditional sharpie, draft and length/beam relationship maybe and nothing else, with it's high aspect rig, round bottom, weight distribution, etc.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    uh, a 27' sharpie has a beam of what, 8'?

    My question is whether traditional-type sharpies with internal ballast can recover from a knockdown.
    The answer is yes....a shallow bilged hull, sharpie or other mono can be made self righting using either ballast or volume or a combination of both and recover from a knockdown. Can some idiot die because they do not know or understand their safety margins....yes to that as well. It is not possible to make a fool-proof boat....there are enough fools out there who will try to prove that.

    My ballasted modified sharpie will recover from a knockdown, with a substantial margin........... and no I have not tried it, but I have done the calculations.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    uh, a 27' sharpie has a beam of what, 8'?

    A 27' catamaran has a beam of maybe 18'?

    Broaches and knockdowns are VERY common on monohulls, and not just racers. Not getting water into an open companionway (downflooding) in a broach is a trait of nearly all keelboats, it is to be expected. My question is whether traditional-type sharpies with internal ballast can recover from a knockdown. Not whether they can or should cross oceans. Somebody did the transpac once in a Montgomery 17. So what? Somebody died in the Chesapeake a few years ago when a Precision 16, very similar in concept, capsized and sunk (instead of self-righting) after blowing the mainsheet too late in a gust.

    It seems to me that some degree of self righting is just common sense for a monohull, and this is the "design" forum so what better place to discuss such issues?
    Well, there are sharpies and there are sharpies. A high-sided Egret with plenty of ballast will recover from a much larger angle than a New Haven sharpie. The typical rig allows the sail to go all the way out at any angle to the wind, which means it can be depowered pretty much completely. The Precision 16 has a large jib which is typically cleated, not a good rig for a small centerboarder, because if you let only the main out, the jib will pull the boat away from the wind.

    The type has well-known limitations, and as Commodore Munroe developed the type for seaworthyness he moved away from what we usually think of as a sharpie. Presto was, however, apparently quite seaworthy.


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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    John, where'd that picture come from? Its one of the best Munroe boat pics I've ever seen.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I don't like sharpies at all any more, Peter, despite having built quite a few of them in the past. It's not just the broach/knockdown thing either, it's the terrible, unpleasant motion, the pounding, the slapping, the excessive heel, and the awful way the chine can dig in and throw you around in chop and crossing eddylines that I am not willing to put up with anymore. You can do so much better with only a little more time and effort in building a more sophisticated hull shape. Don't believe the marketing hype the sharpie design merchants are spreading--if sharpies actually worked as well as they claimed, everyone would be building and using these inexpensive and easy-to-build shapes instead of the more complicated types. But you just don't see many around for more than one reason.

    I think sharpies are at their best in their natural environment, which is shallow, relatively protected, warm-water estuaries. This is where the super shoal draft is useful and appropriate. There are other shapes which have evolved to suit other locations better. There's lotsa pretty boats native to Long Island Sound that you could build. . .why not take a trip to the boat collection at Mystic Seaport and pick one indigenous to your local sailing area?
    Welll said, we dont have sharpies sailing here for those reasons. They are unsuitable in exposed conditions, end of story. and as for the NIS that sailed Bass straight, skilful sailors, picking weather and a degree of luck. When I see fleets of NIS 26's cruising Bass straight in winter Ill be in the queue to buy one (If I can put up with slap slap and no headroom!)
    whatever rocks your boat

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Welll said, we dont have sharpies sailing here for those reasons. They are unsuitable in exposed conditions, end of story. and as for the NIS that sailed Bass straight, skilful sailors, picking weather and a degree of luck. When I see fleets of NIS 26's cruising Bass straight in winter Ill be in the queue to buy one (If I can put up with slap slap and no headroom!)
    I understand James position on this, though I'd like to know more details about his progression through sharpies....
    I don't get this global-distain on all sharpies or I presume shallow bilged boats.
    It is clear that some on this thread and on others here on this forum that there have been many accounts of perfectly adequately seaworthy shallow bilged boats and sharpies. The mini 6.50's are doing passage races, and fall into this sort of boat. Whether a boat has a flat bottom or nearly flat bottom is not really a huge issue....the water still has to go under it and around it.
    The comment about cruising the Bass Strait in winter is also a little off. As mentioned above and elsewhere in this forum a major factor in seaworthiness for small boats is the competence of the crew. What idiot would purposely sail into winter storms in coastal areas just for pleasure? I sail in the winter ( yes our winters are stormy), but I choose my weather. The NIS boats have caught it yes, I have as well once or twice. You do not go looking for it if you are smart. Offshore obviously you cannot hide and have to weather the blow as well as you can.

    I totally get that you do not like this sort of boat, that is OK, You are quite right sharpies and shallow boats often do not have the same headroom comfort. In truth ( we can do the math if you wish) a valid argument cannot be supported in fact suggesting these boats are fundamentally unsafe. That is of course unless you systematically remove all the remedial way a designer or builder might employ to improve safety. Of course we could do that for keel-boat designs I guess as well.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Welll said, we dont have sharpies sailing here for those reasons. They are unsuitable in exposed conditions, end of story. and as for the NIS that sailed Bass straight, skilful sailors, picking weather and a degree of luck. When I see fleets of NIS 26's cruising Bass straight in winter Ill be in the queue to buy one (If I can put up with slap slap and no headroom!)
    Doesn't sound like you have much experience with sharpies.

    The excessive heel is a characteristic atypical of sharpies, although it may be typical of certain Bolger sharpies. The slapping is a problem in light air and left over powerboat wakes. The sharpies I've sailed, which tend to be the more traditional shapes, don't have a problem with the chine digging in and throwing me around in a chop. Again, it may have to do with the type of sharpie you are sailing. Bolger liked to put the chine logs on the outside, which might give the boats a very different set of characteristics. He also liked to give his sharpies overhanging flat bottoms that would tend to slap more than traditional sharpies do.

    Sharpies have their place in the world. A New Haven sharpie would be terrible in fiberglass, because of its flat surfaces, which may be why the type is less common than it was when wooden boats were common.

    In the area where James and I sail, the water tends to be deep, so there's not a big advantage to a boat that can sail in shallow water and sit upright when the tide leaves it sitting on the hard. I can certainly understand why James doesn't like them, his style of sailing involves going into any available maelstrom to fight it out. For those who prefer to avoid the maelstrom, the drawbacks are fewer.

    I see no reason to sail a sharpie in Bass Strait. It's not what they are intended for. On the other hand, a Colin Archer type would not do well in the thin water where sharpies excel.

  9. #44

    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    merritt.

    There seems to be a practice now to call any flat bottomed boat a sharpie, which I find incorrect, at least historically. I'm not sure there is any consensus as to what constitutes a sharpie. For me, sharpies are at least based upon the slender eighteenth century oyster boats. Ralph Munro's Egret, my favorite of the type, is generally regarded as a hybrid sharpie/dory.

    The principle attractions of the type are simple, inexpensive construction, and they are easily beached. From what I can gather, sharpies were considered very seaworthy in skilled hands. They were known for being very nimble boats that could avoid being battered by large waves. This demanded constant attention from the helmsman and could be exhausting after a few hours. This is why they were considered seaworthy in coastal waters but were not used for long, blue water passages. I think a larger cruising version of Egret might fare better as an offshore boat. It seems that the seaworthiness of the sharpie was due as much to the seamanship of the skipper as it was to the boat.

    Just my two cents worth. - John

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    . . .I can certainly understand why James doesn't like them, his style of sailing involves going into any available maelstrom to fight it out.
    Ha ha! This is a pretty good description, actually. I kinda got desensitized from the ridiculous amount of whitewater I paddled during my misspent youth.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Ha ha! This is a pretty good description, actually. I kinda got desensitized from the ridiculous amount of whitewater I paddled during my misspent youth.
    And I've never heard of a whitewater sharpie!

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Well, there are sharpies and there are sharpies. A high-sided Egret with plenty of ballast will recover from a much larger angle than a New Haven sharpie. The typical rig allows the sail to go all the way out at any angle to the wind, which means it can be depowered pretty much completely. The Precision 16 has a large jib which is typically cleated, not a good rig for a small centerboarder, because if you let only the main out, the jib will pull the boat away from the wind.

    The type has well-known limitations, and as Commodore Munroe developed the type for seaworthyness he moved away from what we usually think of as a sharpie. Presto was, however, apparently quite seaworthy.

    that is beautiful!!!
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
    that is beautiful!!!
    but not closely related to the original New Haven sharpies. Check out the body plan:


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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    A look at the Presto 30 by Roger Martin......http://www.boats.com/boat-content/20...to-30-sharpie/ including a stability curve.
    Last edited by gilberj; 04-23-2013 at 10:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    ...and as for the NIS that sailed Bass straight, skilful sailors, picking weather and a degree of luck. When I see fleets of NIS 26's cruising Bass straight in winter Ill be in the queue to buy one (If I can put up with slap slap and no headroom!)
    Thus my link to the guy crossing the Atlantic (above). You dont get to "pick" weather when you're already in the middle of an ocean. When s*** hit the fan, he raised the lee boards and was impressed with the boat's safety.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    I've been reading this thread with interest as I wrote the story about NIS sharpies for Small Boats 2012. The NIS sharpies range from 18ft to 31 ft. During my research I learned that Bruce Kirby, the designer of the NIS range, commissioned an independent marine consulting firm, Aerohydro, of Southewest Harbour, Maine to analyse the righting moment of the 31 footer. They calculated that the 31 could roll to 143 degrees and expect to come back upright. A point of no return of 110 degrees is considered good for a small cruising boat. 143 degrees is remarkable.

    The sharpies have fairly wide side decks combined with a high, crowned cabintop, so if the boat is knocked down the house supplies considerable floatation. The enclosed coaming seat backs add buoyancy. Kirby noted that the self righting characteristics apply to all
    the NIS range but the smaller boats are more affected by crew distribution.

    I spoke personally to the owner of the 23 footer which was mentioned by Mad Scientist. He was knocked flat with the masts in the water. The hatch was open but he affirmed that no water came below.

    That said you probably wouldn't choose a sharpie to go ocean voyaging, but the NIS ones at least seem to be pretty seaworthy.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    those dutch barges, .
    I sailed a dutch barge type across the Atlantic.

    These are her lines


    Ours did not have the bowsprit or roller furling





    Actually a West bound Atlantic crossing is fairly benign.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    I think the NIS 31 is an ultimate sharpie. It still retains much of the flavour of the original in shape and shoal water ability and yet has potential offshore,should you have the desire. I like the 30ft double ended sharpie in Chappells boatbuilding, but if you want guarenteed self righting, i at least would go for weighted board or dagger to supplement inside ballast. I also thought "minoqua" Claphams Roslyn Yawl nonpareli sharpie would be an excellent choice in thin water.....one of which also crossed the Atlantic,but she does have outside ballast.
    EDIT: anyone have an photos of Munroes "Kingfish", other than the one picture in the sharpie book showing her running wing and wing??
    Last edited by skaraborgcraft; 04-24-2013 at 02:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    I sailed a dutch barge type across the Atlantic.

    These are her lines


    Ours did not have the bowsprit or roller furling





    Actually a West bound Atlantic crossing is fairly benign.
    Groote Beer took part in the Transpac and sailed back to California when Bob Johnson owned her.


  20. #55
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    EDIT: anyone have an photos of Munroes "Kingfish", other than the one picture in the sharpie book showing her running wing and wing??
    Check this out: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...4914359&type=1

    Looks like there are several photos of Egret and other Monroe sharpies I have not seen anywhere before. Also looks like there are more Monroe photos at the Univ. of Miami website.

  21. #56
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    http://merrick.library.miami.edu/cdm...sm0015/id/2366

    Scroll down to number 7 - King Fish from astern - I didn't know she had a round stern.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    ^^^^

    Great pictures, thank you.

    I thought Gollywobblers were a 130's invention, this is Sachem from 1888

    [img]

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...


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    Im not surprised by the round stern but more that she was not a cabin boat, not sure why i assumed that but sure i read somewhere she was used for cruising. Great find, thanks for posting.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    As a monhull person, I get intrigued by trimarans and sharpies. The trimarans for greater speed and shallow draft, the sharpies, for speed/ efficiency of construction, and shallow draft.

    I'm always attracted to Haiku. I see alot of striaght lines on the molds, under that pretty sheer, which would be a sinch with my tracksaw. Also Just one plank per side! etc. I can see that this type for the weight gives you alot of length and quick building. The old timers were making use of wide American wood boards available then, now with plywood we have that option easy again.

    I like the ultra shallow draft, apart from cruising, it makes mooring and trailering easier. There's a bar at Christchurch which would give a longer window. Also somewhere with reefs, the ultra shallow draft gets you over a coral ledge at high tide, I'm assuming. I see a much longer boat of the same weight and building time, which might have its advatantages to clawing back interior space, speed and motion comfort etc.

    I like all this, and the review in Watercraft of Haiku, commented that she sailed well but there was little detail. The video and pictures of Iain's Haiku model, look very attractive. She's also stayless which helps trailing etc.

    So, could anybody who has sailed one similar, comment on how they feel and perform? I realise the draft and 'simplicity' of constructional arrangement might mean some compromise, but funny things happen with boats with length and weight, and its not at all entirely predictable. These boats evolved in the sea not on a computer, so I'd be inclined to think they work. What they might loose in depth, might be gained in length...

    I'd have to say a 1.5 ton 30ft Sharpie of the Haiku/ Egret type needs comparing to a shorter 22ft 'normal' boat of similar weight/ cost of materials and construction time.

    Has anybody sailed one, who can comment to us that havn't, how they feel and act, comparing to something shorter of the same weight and material/ building time but more normal/ typical, in say bay conditions Force 3?


    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 04-25-2013 at 04:55 AM.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    I can't let this thread continue without posting one of the prettiest sharpie/yacht designs ever. Probably impractical on a lot of levels, but she sure is a pretty boat. This pic after a bit of neglect before being auctioned.

    From Boatbuilding, page 56, Plate 2. Lines of a 36-Foot Modified Sharpie



    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    When a guy like Iain Oughtred takes the time to design a sharpie then you can only wonder if James is only convincing and not necessarily correct when it comes to them thar sharpies. Maybe it's because I fished out of a very able flat-bottomed skiff for twenty plus years, maybe it's because I'm a Floridian with sand bars everywhere, or maybe because I just like imagining the places I could go in this boat, but one thing's for sure – I've always liked Iain's Haiku. The masts on this one look a little too straight for my tastes and that guy should be shot for storing that oar thingie in front of the cabin windows, don't like the stays on this one, and that spray rail is downright ugly but all in all, sure would like to build one similar to it.


  28. #63
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    I think Southerners like skiffs and sharpies because of familiarity of use. I spent more time (in FL, GA, SC and TN) in a rowing skiff whne I was a boy than I did on a bicycle. I didn't really have much interest or patience for sailing, and used them for utility and rowing workouts--really just messing about, as the phrase goes--I can take one where no one should. Maybe we skiff afficianados were forced to learn to use them and developed skills over a steep learning curve. I have some of the finest wooden rowboats in the United States at my disposal in the South End Rowing Club, and they are truly wonderful. I use my Whisp about as much, maybe more. No variance in conditions. I also do not go out when it is 35 knots and gusting 60.

  29. #64
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    I want a Minocqua II myself. Looks like Chapelle changed the rig and the lines slightly for his 38. The Minocqua built by the guy out in CA got Clapham's stern all wrong I think.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Has anyone here ever sailed with one of those shallow balanced rudders seen on many traditional sharpies and the Clapham Nonpariel sharpies??? any comments?? I note the Ian Oughtred mounted the rudder on the sternpost on Haiku.

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    We have been discussing semantics a little here. What is a sharpie?? Is a ballasted, boat or a round bottom shallow bilged boat, or an arch bottom boat or a v bottom boat still a sharpie?? should the definition be narrow and specific (flat bottom and unballasted, with a length beam ratio of about 6 to1) or should SHARPIE include all of the above? Certainly a ballasted seagoing sharpie like Mr. Parkers "Ibis" is a very different boat from a little sharpie skiff.
    Would, for example the Hogfish series be considered a sharpie? http://chrismorejohn.blogspot.ca/200...h-maximus.html

    I tend to refer to my Meadowlark as a 'modified sharpie' This describes the origins while noting there have been considerable developement, from the point of origin.
    Last edited by gilberj; 04-25-2013 at 11:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Gliberj,

    When coasting along in your Meadowlark, does she slap unduly, does she feel especially tender in a gust more than you'd expect, does she make use of her long waterline for added speed over other similar weight shorter boat, how high does she point in reasonable conditions, how strong is the wind when you reef her, ever have the rudder out the water, and how does stable does she feel downwind on a run?

    Cheers

    Ed

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    Has anyone here ever sailed with one of those shallow balanced rudders seen on many traditional sharpies and the Clapham Nonpariel sharpies??? any comments?? I note the Ian Oughtred mounted the rudder on the sternpost on Haiku.
    I've sailed quite a bit with those rudders. They are not extremely effective, you'd only use them if you have to, but the original round-sterned New Haven type had to have a rudder that did not mount on the stern because it would interfere with the tongs, just as corners on the transom would.

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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    ust as corners on the transom would.
    Not picking on you, John. But I've read this in various places researching the origins of the sharpie and I would suggest a look at this thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Long-Island%29)

    In it there are images of dozens of tong boats, built and used by people you can still speak with today, complete with pictures of people tonging off of them, and not one of those boats has a round transom. Also, other boats used for tonging, the Yankee Skiff aka Staten Island Skiff, did not have a round transo,

    My guess, and that's all it is, about the old sharpie workboats round transom would be that it was a custom carried over by some builders from the round bilged boats they were used to building. In those boats, that type of stern reduced bouyancy aft, and thus reduced pitching.

    Kevin
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    Default Re: Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

    Isnt this almost the same as Minocqua?



    The sharpie book shows two keel profiles,one with outside ballast. From all accounts, a very good sailor. Seems to be the usual objection of having a large size boat with bugger all headroom.....i guess thats where the NIS 31 has a distinct advantage. Be a shame to spoil those lines to gain headroom.

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