Sharpies "seaworthy"? come on...

[peterchech]

I have Reuel Parker's book on Sharpies, which is an excellent read.

From his book and from what I have read and learned over the past few years, yes they can be relatively fast off the wind for what it is. Shallow draft, super simple to build, even good looking in my view. More than once I have considered building one (the 27 footer) and putting a modern rig on it, it would be a simple and unique boat and I'm sure fun to sail. I would probably ballast it with a thousand pounds or so of concrete or iron in the bilge, as Reuel suggests, though I imagine that would hurt its offwind performance quite a bit without really adding much stability (ideally ballast should be down low in a keel, not in the bilge).

But can you really call one of these boats "seaworthy"?

Sudden squalls and a mere 15 knots wind under spinnaker have knocked down the 25' keelboat I race on, with full crew, all experienced sailors. Boat pops right back up once the pressure is off. But a boat without a ballasted keel, especially a flat bottomed one like a sharpie, will NOT come back up from a 60-90 degree broach/knockdown.

I sail in relatively protected waters. Mostly New York Harbor, Sandy Hook Bay and the Sound. But it can get rough very suddenly. I hove-to once on my own 25' keelboat when a squall blew through, and with working jib and full main the rail was under for about 20 minutes until it blew through. Heaving-to on an unballasted boat isn't possible (try it on a dinghy) and doing so on a boat without a ballasted keel is I'm guessing not really a great idea...

Am I wrong? If I were to pour 1000 pounds or more of concrete ballast on the bottom of the boat as suggested by the Sharpie book, would that really be enough to stiffen up a narrow Sharpie?

I wouldn't expect one to be completely self-righting until 120 degrees like a proper keelboat, but would this at least allow it to come up from a broach or knock-down? Are there boats like this that exist and are actually sailed, or people on this forum with real experience on one of these boats? (not a 12' flatiron skiff or even a 18' florida type sharpie, I mean something that would be used in LI sound or similar)

[Breakaway]

Seaworthiness encompasses more than just a design. It includes the vessel's maintenance, build quality, details, and most importantly, the experience, temperment,and current condition of her crew.

Kevin

[Sayla]

......Are there boats like this that exist and are actually sailed, or people on this forum with real experience on one of these boats? (not a 12' flatiron skiff or even a 18' florida type sharpie, I mean something that would be used in LI sound or similar)

Check out the stability graph for a Cape Henry, as per the web page - not a sharpie per se but a shoal draft V nonetheless
I often wonder what the stats on a Haiku would actually be

[gilberj]

I sail a modified Sharpie....A Herreshoff Meadowlark....Heavily Ballasted bout 45% of displacement. Whimbrel would definitely come back from a knockdown. My calculations indicate it should right itself from almost 140 degrees if I can keep the water out (my cockpit is self draining and all hatches would need to be secured). I did not include the righting force of the buoyancy of the masts in the calculations.
Look at the advertised charactaristics of the Roger Marshal Presto 30....similar angles.
Look at the account of the Norwalk Island Sharpie crossing the Bass Strait in a storm. http://www.nisboats.com/pdfs/Charlie...Strait%201.pdf
http://www.nisboats.com/pdfs/Charlie...assStrait2.pdf

Look at Munroes Presto, or Egret.
Mr. Parker is an experienced designer/builder/sailor

All the big Open 50 -60- 70's used in ocean racing are very shallow hulls.....


Traditional sharpies had a reputation of being surprisingly able. There is a limit to what you can do with an unballasted boat. Most simple shallow box hulls will reach a capsize point somewhere before they reach 90 degrees (say 60 - 80 degrees)

To be seaworthy in the context you describe I think you need knockdown stability at least, say 120 degrees or so. Stability is derived from a combination of weight and volume. A sharpie can be designed to recover in those conditions and some already meet those requirements.

[Ian McColgin]

Many sharpies have no more ability to come back from a knockdown than catboats or Wianno Seniors. Usually those that don't combine mighty near no ballast with lot's of open space for water to get into the hull once the rail is under. But there's a wholly different sort of sharpie that's perfectly seaworthy for long-shore voyaging, like a straight hop from Long Island Sound to Newfoundland.

I have not seen stability curves for any of Parker's boats but I've studied the plans as available on the internet and also looked at the stabiity of other sharpie types ranging from the Presto to Pete Culler's to LFH's Meadow Lark and such. As LFH points out, the type does not really have ultimate stability and it will not come back from mast deep in the water. However, they can be sailed very hard. Since these boats have excellent watertight integrity - small cockpits, centered hatches and such - you can dare to sail rail at the water and if caught by a gust that drags a spreader in the water you'll come back.

In ocean storms, it's not the wind alone that puts the boat over. It's the wind coupled with extreme seas. Against those, the sharpie type is in trouble. For ocean crossings you need a boat that can withstand unexpected weather. For a thousand miles or so not more than a couple hundred miles off-shore, you can pick your weather and be acceptably safe.

G'luck

[James McMullen]

I don't like sharpies at all any more, Peter, despite having built quite a few of them in the past. It's not just the broach/knockdown thing either, it's the terrible, unpleasant motion, the pounding, the slapping, the excessive heel, and the awful way the chine can dig in and throw you around in chop and crossing eddylines that I am not willing to put up with anymore. You can do so much better with only a little more time and effort in building a more sophisticated hull shape. Don't believe the marketing hype the sharpie design merchants are spreading--if sharpies actually worked as well as they claimed, everyone would be building and using these inexpensive and easy-to-build shapes instead of the more complicated types. But you just don't see many around for more than one reason.

I think sharpies are at their best in their natural environment, which is shallow, relatively protected, warm-water estuaries. This is where the super shoal draft is useful and appropriate. There are other shapes which have evolved to suit other locations better. There's lotsa pretty boats native to Long Island Sound that you could build. . .why not take a trip to the boat collection at Mystic Seaport and pick one indigenous to your local sailing area?

[kenjamin]

This is from Wikipedia:

"Commodore Monroe designed Egret in 1886 and had her built on Staten Island and delivered to Key West.
Egret was unique in that she had higher, flaring sides than the typical sharpie and was double-ended. This meant more stability as she was loaded and the ability to run before a following sea without waves breaking over the stern. These attributes contributed to behavior that led the Commodore to call the Egret a "sharpie-lifeboat"."

I've only seen one photograph of the original Egret and I wish I could find it again but I remember it looking very seaworthy in lumpy seas with its reserve buoyancy, decking, low cabin, small cockpit and double endedness. A big part of the mystique of that famous sharpie was the tales of it's ability told by it's owner, helmsman, and designer, Captain Ralph Munroe. Evidently he sailed the boat quite a lot in all kinds of conditions delivering mail and other stuff down in Biscayne Bay near Miami so he accumulated a great deal of experience with the boat and was quite pleased with it's performance. When you think about it, so much of seaworthiness is between the ears of the skipper – especially his or her intimate experience with a boat and knowing what the limits are of that particular design. So you have to wonder how much of Egret's seaworthiness was inherent in the design and how much of it was due to a skipper who knew his boat very well and had first hand knowledge of what he could accomplish with the boat in all kinds of conditions.

I agree with James in that sharpies are especially appropriate for Florida because of the shallow waters, extensive beaches and abundant backwater estuaries. I just wanted to mention that not all sharpies are created equal. Captain Ralph Munroe designed the Egret to be especially seaworthy, he was a very knowledgeable designer and knew exactly what he wanted in a boat for his South Florida waters and had a ton of experience sailing it, so he knew first hand what the boat could accomplish. All this to say knowing your boat well can be a huge part of seaworthiness.

[Woxbox]

There's lotsa pretty boats native to Long Island Sound that you could build. . .why not take a trip to the boat collection at Mystic Seaport and pick one indigenous to your local sailing area?

But James, the sharpie is a Long Island Sound original. Mystic says so itself. "Sharpies originated on the Connecticut shore of Long Island Sound as a refinement responsive to both changing needs and advancing technology."

[James McMullen]

Really? I was thinking of boats more like catboats and Friendship sloops and Herreshoff's and stuff--but then I'm not an east coast guy, so I have only a passing familiarity with which stuff is from exactly where. Nevertheless, I still hate sharpies with a vengeance and would never build or own one ever again.

[Craic]

...I wouldn't expect one to be completely self-righting until 120 degrees like a proper keelboat, but would this at least allow it to come up from a broach or knock-down? Are there boats like this that exist and are actually sailed, or people on this forum with real experience on one of these boats? (not a 12' flatiron skiff or even a 18' florida type sharpie, I mean something that would be used in LI sound or similar)

Such boats actually exist and are sailed, in Europe. I sail a shallow draught boat which is self-righting like a proper keelboat, and I sail that on the open Atlantic coast as well as in the Venice Lagoon and any water between. But it is no Sharpie.

[gilberj]

As LFH points out, the type does not really have ultimate stability and it will not come back from mast deep in the water.
G'luck

I strongly doubt LFH ever calculated stability. In The Common Sense he does not include a chapter on yacht stability. He makes mildly disparaging comments about metacenters in the chapter about 'Choosing a Cruisier', coincidentally referring to an imaginary Meadowlark. The point is Whimbrel a Herreshoff Meadowlark will come back from a mast in the water knockdown....easily. LFH did stability by ensuring there was a lot of ballast. I doubt he really knew what this design was capable of.
I get James point about pounding. I think Mr. Bolgers sharpies all had considerable rocker, to solve other problems, but suffered from pounding and slapping because the bow was out of the water. The Meadowlark seldom pounds and seldom very hard....the bow is immersed. On the other hand she maneuvers sluggishly, you win some and you loose some.
Few boats sailing offshore these days have ultimate stability......self righting from 180 degree roll over. ISO Stix numbers for sea class "A" for offshore yachts starts at something like 130 degrees.
Seaworthiness means .......is the boat suitable for its intended voyage ????......Is the crew competent?????
Seaworthiness includes for all vessels.......1. Watertight integrity, 2. Adequate stability, 3. general fitness including structure, equipment, maintenance, and outfitting. For sailing yachts you can add weatherliness.

Sharpies can be designed and built to be seaworthy, by any measure.....You may.. as James McM not like sharpies....thats ok...no-one is forcing a sharpie on him....and I appreciate his experience with the type. With Sharpies I have very little experience other than Whimbrel. But there again I have pretty extensive experience on three different LFH designed boats, and some on a handful of others. I trust his sense of rightness in his designs.
In truth I'd consider most traditional sharpies as suitable for estuaries and near-near coastal waters.

[wtarzia]

Isn't the key to "Long-Island-Sound-worthiness" reefing down (and hopefully a half hour before you really need to)? It gets pretty choppy near-shore on LIS, does it not? And the sharpies evolved there. I spent only 5 days on one (a 23 footer in the Texas 200 event); we sailed 50% under-rigged (one 75 sf balanced lug) in a pretty constant 10-20 mph breeze, mostly broad and beam reach, often Long Island Sound choppy. Never came close to a problem. Tacked up a couple of channels, pounded like hell, hosed with spray, and bones vibrated a bit -- that could get annoying if you had to do it all day, but for this week I much appreciated the sharpie. Ours had a lot of water-tight chambers, which should be a miminum for a such a boat IMO.

Though not hull-formed like a dory with extreme depth and flare, would a ballast of oysters have been a stability-design consideration during this evolution?

Now, a sharpie with a skinny hull and an outrigger is a damned good sharpie and a vast improvement. -- Wade

[Breakaway]

In Long Island Sound, since the prevailing summer wind is SW--towards Connecticut-while the prevailing wind in winter is NW, away from. Also conditions in western LIS are vastly calmer/less open than in eastern LIS.

Kevin

[CapnJ2ds]

Phil Bolger noted that his Advanced Sharpie recovered reassuringly from knockdowns. I would assume that this was due to her high freeboard giving her proportionately greater depth (DEPTH, not draught) which gave her internal ballast a longer lever to work with.

[DGentry]

A friend of mine sailed his large Bruce Kirby designed sharpie (a precursor to the Norwalk Island Sharpies) across the Gulf of Mexico a few times . . . .
These, like some of the Bolger sharpies, have relatively high freeboard.

[capefox]

How does a multi-chine (Argie 15) do versus sharpie such as a Goat Island Skiff in terms of seaworthiness.

I'm a novice sailor. My wife and I took some basic lessons and read a book. Then we took our 10-ft sailing dinghy out on some large dams in the Rocky Mountain region a half dozen times during the summer and fall. Weather is very unpredictable and wind can be very variable. We ran into some pretty stiff winds and three to five foot waves with whitecaps on one occasion. Luckily we haven't capsized yet. Because the ten-footer is too small now for our family, I'm building a multi-chine Argie 15 instead of a Goat Island Skiff, because I was told that the former does better in rough water than the sharpie style Storer GIS. The GIS is such a simple, elegant design, I was sad to hear it wasn't suited to our needs.

[gilberj]

Multi-chine is better in some respects over a single chine. Basically the single chine flat bottom has a sharp corner (the chine) which interferes with the water (drag, eddies, catching an edge) more than the more gentle corner usually found on a multi-chine boat. Sort of hard chine vs soft chine....There are so many variables that to simply say that this boat is better than that boat because it is multi-chine or round bottom in not quite right....too simple.

[Landrith]

Doesn't the cheap reliable availability of weather and navigation make the faster lighter boat more seaworthy than the heavy built cruiser of the past? i.e. Mini Trasat's (a close relative of the shallow hulled sharpie) are more seaworthy than Bank's for ocean crossing?

[Ian McColgin]

capefox, the capeability and seaworthyness issues you face with small (not even 1/2 ton)open boats are very different from the issues of a 10+ ton sailing vessel. The total capacity of the Argie 15 will likely be better for your family and she can likely handle tougher weather than the Goat Island Skiff but that difference is not really related to the sharpie v. other shapes.

[marujo.sortudo]

No personal experience to add here, but I was reading The Good Little Ship by Vincent Gilpin the other day. He has nothing but praise for how able Commodore Monroe's sharpie-type designs were. I'd love to hear experiences folks have with boats of this type.

[gilberj]

I'd have to agree with Ian here....In the smaller sizes there are no profound differences between a decent sharpie skiff and a decent sailing dinghy multi-chine or round bottom.
If you are thinking seaworthy of sheltered and partially sheltered waters and a boat for a family, I'd have to recommend strongly a boat which has buoyancy/flotation and the ability to self rescue. This will if anything give you and the family confidence. I'd also recommend you try that self rescue out in relatively safe and hopefully warm water. The Argie 15 looks good for this.

[peterchech]

Few boats sailing offshore these days have ultimate stability......self righting from 180 degree roll over. ISO Stix numbers for sea class "A" for offshore yachts starts at something like 130 degrees.
Seaworthiness means .......is the boat suitable for its intended voyage ????......Is the crew competent?????
Seaworthiness includes for all vessels.......1. Watertight integrity, 2. Adequate stability, 3. general fitness including structure, equipment, maintenance, and outfitting. For sailing yachts you can add weatherliness.

Yup. I think most keelboats have an AVS of around 120, from catalinas to mini-650's, and that is generally accepted as the minimum. Of course even some boats with this AVS might have downflooding issues in a bad broach (j/24's are famous for this) so that's definitely another consideration.

As far as sharpies go, I am NOT talking about offshore sailing here, or about the benefits/drawbacks of sharpies either. I think James is right about them personally, but that doesn't mean they can't be nice/fun in warm calm shallow waters check this out:


Even James would have fun on that!

BUT... since I don't live near the florida keys, coastal conditions in most places mean that such a boat is probably unsafe on most of the days I would really want to go sailing, ie when the breeze is up.

Sure the skipper is part of the mix, but if a boat can't recover from a partial knockdown, how can it be safe? Sheets get jammed, sudden squalls blow in, many sailors like to throw up a spinnaker downwind, etc, and at least partial knockdowns happen to everybody who sails enough.

The NIS designs are very good looking, but sort of get away from the whole sharpie concept in my mind. James has a point, if you are going through the trouble of building such a beautiful boat, why not go the extra yard and go round bilge or at least multi chine? You can still have shallow draft... The good thing about sharpies was that you could slap one together quickly and cheaply, which is what appeals to me about the traditional ones in Reuel Parker's book.

Plus I can't see what kind of ballast the NIS boats have, because the website is not very detailed. I'm guessing it's internal in the bilge?

I just wonder, with significant ballast recommended by reuel parker, what angle could a traditional type sharpie recover from assuming no downflooding... what would its AVS be more or less? I feel like the hard chine would give up early and drastically...

As for the Monroe Egret, I recall one that was in WB magazine a few years ago, built in scandinavia, which was forced to add significant ballast into its keel in order to be certified in Europe, for the very reason that as-designed it did not have enough stability. And the idea that double enders are inherently more seaworthy than transomed boats has long ago been refuted. They are beautiful and they are seaworthy in their own way, but there is not something magical about a double ender that makes it safer than any other hull type.

[gilberj]

I do not know about ballasting in the NIS boats. They have made remarkable voyages. I also do not know about ballasting an Egret. The Presto was certainly ballasted, as is the Meadowlark. Having sailed the Meadowlark for about 4 years now I have been pleasantly surprised at just how much ability there is.
Whimbrel is the easiest boat to handle in a blow ( numerous time in winds force 6+ and several times in winds force 8-9 in near coastal waters) of any smallish boat (<60 feet) I have sailed. We stand up as well as most keel boats, better than some. I can work to windward in those winds where my old cutters (full keel types, English gaffer and 30 foot Colin Archer style)) would have done it but not without bitching. Off the wind in those conditions she is steady where they would be rolling at least somewhat.....oooohh and she is fast to.....

[TR]

I would suggest anyone seriously interested in this subject read Reuel Parker's article in Professional Boatbuilder #139 (Oct/Nov 2012), "A Studied Lack of Depth". He examines 8 shoal draft hulls and discusses the stability characteristics of each boat (All his own designs I believe), with stability curves presented for some. While I take issue with many of his findings due to methodology and lack of detail, the general outcome is far more positive than most of the comments in this thread (so far).

[peterchech]

I would suggest anyone seriously interested in this subject read Reuel Parker's article in Professional Boatbuilder #139 (Oct/Nov 2012), "A Studied Lack of Depth". He examines 8 shoal draft hulls and discusses the stability characteristics of each boat (All his own designs I believe), with stability curves presented for some. While I take issue with many of his findings due to methodology and lack of detail, the general outcome is far more positive than most of the comments in this thread (so far).

I'm sure he is not biased?

Do u have a link to the article?

[Ian McColgin]

The article is in the magazine indicated. As with WoodenBoat, it's available for purchase on line or in paper. It's not free for the click.

[Paul Pless]

I don't like sharpies at all any more, Peter, despite having built quite a few of them in the past. It's not just the broach/knockdown thing either, it's the terrible, unpleasant motion, the pounding, the slapping, the excessive heel, and the awful way the chine can dig in and throw you around in chop and crossing eddylines that I am not willing to put up with anymore.

I'd be interested in knowing what the largest 'sharpie' is that James has built and that James has sailed extensively. It seems to me that there is quite a lot of difference between a light plywood epoxy eighteen foot skiff that someone may be calling a sharpie on their set of plans and the twenty five foot and up rather heavier constructed solid wood narrow flat bottom boats that I traditionally consider to be a sharpie. Has James really built a bunch of them in the past, or was he building skiffs? And, is there or isn't there a difference?

[Thad]

This thread like a few others on the forum seems premised on the idea that safety at sea (or any place else) is totally definable and needs legislative enforcement. As noted in other threads dories (decked over) have made North Atlantic crossings. Though I know of no such crossings in small size sharpies I also know that seaworthiness has much to do with seamanship. As noted above, many "seaworthy" boats have foundered while we know many boats with questionable stability factors have had long and far faring careers. So, what and whom is this thread railing at, as that seems to be the tone. I find this inappropriate and disagreeable, being accusatory rather than aimed at discussion. That discussion has ensued is a tribute to the participants.

[Thad]

Good question Paul.

[TR]

This thread like a few others on the forum seems premised on the idea that safety at sea (or any place else) is totally definable and needs legislative enforcement. As noted in other threads dories (decked over) have made North Atlantic crossings. Though I know of no such crossings in small size sharpies I also know that seaworthiness has much to do with seamanship. As noted above, many "seaworthy" boats have foundered while we know many boats with questionable stability factors have had long and far faring careers. So, what and whom is this thread railing at, as that seems to be the tone. I find this inappropriate and disagreeable, being accusatory rather than aimed at discussion. That discussion has ensued is a tribute to the participants.

Exactly......By the original post all multihulls may be judged unseaworthy because they cannot recover from a 90 degree knockdown.....

[Ian McColgin]

Actually, some oceangoing multis have been designed to recover from a 180. But that's another matter. Every sort of boat has its limits and seaworthiness means seaworthiness for a purpose. A boat that's wonderfully seaworthy for the stormy capes is not the most seaworthy thing for the Baltic. A boat that's seaworthy for carrying cargo down a canal, as we see on the thread with those dutch barges, is a different deal if unlanden and pressed hard for racing.

A proper stability study should be part of any design, and usually is not. At least in part that's because, especially before computers, it was very expensive to calculate. As with ships, if you understand the vessel's stability perameters, you can manage her safely. Even for off-shore you don't necessarily need or want perfect righting from 180, since even with some range of inverted stability the seas that dumped you will bring you back. But you need to know.

[gilberj]

Sharpies are not the best thing ever......While I can and do dry out on the tide when I want to, I cannot really sail in less than about 3 feet of water and prefer not to see the bottom unless I am planning to. At 8000 lbs I cannot push off if I touch accidentally in a bad place. I have about 4.5 feet of headroom on a 33 foot boat I cannot sleep 6. I have not had Whimbrel offshore in a gale of wind, with 6 to 8 metre seas. Being stiff she may give quite a vigorous ride, though I suspect it won't be substantially worse than other small vessels in those conditions.
Like all boats there are gains and losses. Seaworthiness is always relative to the intended voyage. Sharpies can meet that measure.
A few have mentioned crew competence....I suspect that may be slightly more critical with a light shallow body boat like a sharpie.

[Mad Scientist]

This thread like a few others on the forum seems premised on the idea that safety at sea (or any place else) is totally definable and needs legislative enforcement. As noted in other threads dories (decked over) have made North Atlantic crossings. Though I know of no such crossings in small size sharpies I also know that seaworthiness has much to do with seamanship. As noted above, many "seaworthy" boats have foundered while we know many boats with questionable stability factors have had long and far faring careers. So, what and whom is this thread railing at, as that seems to be the tone. I find this inappropriate and disagreeable, being accusatory rather than aimed at discussion. That discussion has ensued is a tribute to the participants.

The NIS was profiled in WB's 'Small Boats' 2012 edition. It was pointed out that a 23' version survived a knockdown in the Bass Strait, and not a drop of water went below, even though the main hatch was open. Can't see anything to criticize there! YMMV

Tom

[GaryK]

The chap who sailed a Bolger sharpie across the Atlantic (AS39) is interviewed here. He addresses a few negative misconceptions about shallow draft sharpies and found his to be extremely seaworthy.

The worst storm (a force ten with 40-50 foot seas so closely spaced that it was more akin to riding an elevator up and down and up again than sailing) was a recipe for a knockdown or capsize situation and if we had been in the boat I'm sitting on right now (CAL 34) I'm sure we would have been knocked down or worse rolled but on LM2 with our board up and two reefs in we never once had even a close call.

[peterchech]

Exactly......By the original post all multihulls may be judged unseaworthy because they cannot recover from a 90 degree knockdown.....

uh, a 27' sharpie has a beam of what, 8'?

A 27' catamaran has a beam of maybe 18'?

Broaches and knockdowns are VERY common on monohulls, and not just racers. Not getting water into an open companionway (downflooding) in a broach is a trait of nearly all keelboats, it is to be expected. My question is whether traditional-type sharpies with internal ballast can recover from a knockdown. Not whether they can or should cross oceans. Somebody did the transpac once in a Montgomery 17. So what? Somebody died in the Chesapeake a few years ago when a Precision 16, very similar in concept, capsized and sunk (instead of self-righting) after blowing the mainsheet too late in a gust.

It seems to me that some degree of self righting is just common sense for a monohull, and this is the "design" forum so what better place to discuss such issues?