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Thread: A celebration of small schooners

  1. #1
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    Default A celebration of small schooners

    Anyone know this boat, I met the owner in the Bahamas and later saw the boat in Man O War. Dinghied around it a couple of times, but got no response. He told me it was a Pete Culler design and he built her in NH.She's the only one of that design built.

    Photo stolen from the web


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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Don't know her, but like her. On the other hand they need to peak up or a bit of topping lift to take that crease out.

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Appears to have a very small sail plan for a schooner. One of the appeals to me of schooners is the ability to carry a very large amount sail, that is easily handled and can be reefed down to small working sails well inboard.


    <and what's up with Gareth admiring a culler design?>
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Probably the reason that she is the only boat built to that design is that she is too small to be rigged as a schooner!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    I'm not sure she's too small to be a schooner, but most of the spars seem too short, and the coach roof looks like a cut down shipping container. If Pete Culler designed her, I suspect some liberties were taken during construction.
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    The smallest schooner listed in 'Pete Culler on Wooden Boats' is 28'. The comment reads 'A real toy boat.' - Tom

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    I love schooners and have skippered a heck of a lot of them. A hull thirty feet in length is just touching on the bottom edge of the rig being impractical unless you want to impress some one with all the masts and sails you can display. There is a minimum hull length that restricts practical performance of certain rigs and, the schooner is one of them. While a length of 28' is great for a sloop. Rig it as a schooner and it will not perform as well as a sloop of the same hull design and of the same length. In truth, a schooner needs more stabiltiy of hull form in order to support her rig than does a sloop. There in lies the delema. A short fat hull just isn't all that comfortable to sail. Off the wind it will, most likely, be acceptable. But when going to weather, the schooner rig will slow her down and she will not point as high as the sloop will. She will be slow in stays and a bitch to bring about in a blow! And, when at anchor, the windage of the rig will put more strain on her ground tackle than the sloop wil. Often the weight aloft will also cause her to roll in a less than comfortable manner. I find that thirty six feet on deck is a comfortable length that I am happy with for a schooner rig if I were to build one for myself. Here there is enough room below for practical off shore cruising and enough space on deck for handeling sails in an uncrowded manner. A schooner of this size begins to become more practical than a sloop as the sail plan is now broken into more easily handled areas. The boat is still not too large to be handled by one or two people and is large enough to afford some protection for the crew if the hull is designed to be of an easy motion. Nothing is more miserable than to be bounced about in a tiny cork of a boat that is set up with a rig that is more for show than go.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I love schooners and have skippered a heck of a lot of them. A hull thirty feet in length is just touching on the bottom edge of the rig being impractical unless you want to impress some one with all the masts and sails you can display. There is a minimum hull length that restricts practical performance of certain rigs and, the schooner is one of them. While a length of 28' is great for a sloop. Rig it as a schooner and it will not perform as well as a sloop of the same hull design and of the same length. In truth, a schooner needs more stabiltiy of hull form in order to support her rig than does a sloop. There in lies the delema. A short fat hull just isn't all that comfortable to sail. Off the wind it will, most likely, be acceptable. But when going to weather, the schooner rig will slow her down and she will not point as high as the sloop will. She will be slow in stays and a bitch to bring about in a blow! And, when at anchor, the windage of the rig will put more strain on her ground tackle than the sloop wil. Often the weight aloft will also cause her to roll in a less than comfortable manner. I find that thirty six feet on deck is a comfortable length that I am happy with for a schooner rig if I were to build one for myself. Here there is enough room below for practical off shore cruising and enough space on deck for handeling sails in an uncrowded manner. A schooner of this size begins to become more practical than a sloop as the sail plan is now broken into more easily handled areas. The boat is still not too large to be handled by one or two people and is large enough to afford some protection for the crew if the hull is designed to be of an easy motion. Nothing is more miserable than to be bounced about in a tiny cork of a boat that is set up with a rig that is more for show than go.
    Jay
    I'm sure you know what you're talking about, Jay, but a small schooner can sure be a lot of fun. I posted last year about converting a derelict Privateer 26 hull into a schooner rig. I made fir masts and spars, and replaced the deck with yellow pine and red cedar. The waterline is 21' and the total sparred length is 34'. The beam is 8'. She sails very well, and I am used to sailing sloops. After I worked out the gaff rigging, and got the wrinkles out of the sail; I can go upwind efficiently, and have no problems at all tacking in any amount of wind. I can easily singlehand this little schooner. I've even flown the fisherman and topsail singlehanded. In heavier winds, I use the main, fore, and jumbo. All are self tacking, and a joy to sail.

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    If you are happy with your boat then, that is all that one needs to say.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Mutton chop you say?.......

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrleft8 View Post
    Mutton chop you say?.......
    maybe you meant muffin top
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I love schooners and have skippered a heck of a lot of them. A hull thirty feet in length is just touching on the bottom edge of the rig being impractical unless you want to impress some one with all the masts and sails you can display. There is a minimum hull length that restricts practical performance of certain rigs and, the schooner is one of them. While a length of 28' is great for a sloop. Rig it as a schooner and it will not perform as well as a sloop of the same hull design and of the same length. In truth, a schooner needs more stabiltiy of hull form in order to support her rig than does a sloop. There in lies the delema. A short fat hull just isn't all that comfortable to sail. Off the wind it will, most likely, be acceptable. But when going to weather, the schooner rig will slow her down and she will not point as high as the sloop will. She will be slow in stays and a bitch to bring about in a blow! And, when at anchor, the windage of the rig will put more strain on her ground tackle than the sloop wil. Often the weight aloft will also cause her to roll in a less than comfortable manner. I find that thirty six feet on deck is a comfortable length that I am happy with for a schooner rig if I were to build one for myself. Here there is enough room below for practical off shore cruising and enough space on deck for handeling sails in an uncrowded manner. A schooner of this size begins to become more practical than a sloop as the sail plan is now broken into more easily handled areas. The boat is still not too large to be handled by one or two people and is large enough to afford some protection for the crew if the hull is designed to be of an easy motion. Nothing is more miserable than to be bounced about in a tiny cork of a boat that is set up with a rig that is more for show than go.
    Jay
    Well said Jay. I've seen and sailed a number of sweet little schooners, but they've all just been too small to take advantage of a schooner rig and not big enough to overcome their disadvantages. My personal preference is closer to 40' for a short schooner.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Rat, My favorite all round schooner is the Alden "Wandurlure II" that is 38' on deck. The schooner that stole my heart but I will never need to own is the 83' Alden designed "Serena". I was part of the crew that built her new foremast prior to her run in the Transpac back when she Belonged to Ken Demuse . "Red Witch" has her mast trimmings as her rub rails.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 04-13-2013 at 07:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    My favorite schooner is Kelpie. She is just the sweetest sailing boat I ever spent any time on. Serena was a wonder. More of my favorite boats have come from Alden than any other designer. I hear that she's languishing up in the Bay. The first schooner I ever saw live and in person was Goodwill. That was a serious WOW moment. Minutes later, Kelpie was the second schooner I ever saw. My first impression of Kelpie was nothing more than a wall of green as I almost rammed her amidships with my Sabot.

    In my mind, the word schooner says BIG. A 35' sloop is a good sized boat. A 35' schooner is cute, diminutive. The perfect size for a schooner - 65' - coincidentally, the length of Kelpie.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    "Kelpie" is on her way to a new home in Europe, according to the grape vine.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Kelpie has been in her new home, Merry Olde England, for a number of months. She is undergoing a major refit after her trip through the Ditch, and across the Pond. She is getting a new teak deck to replace her fir deck. Her diesel has been replaced, moved forward, and deeper in the water. Her new engine position will dictate major changes to her interior back aft. Kelpie's rig will be restored to her original sailplan from the original drawing supplied by Ernie Minnie.

    Kelpie's new owner is no stranger to schooners. Her slip mate will be Tom Perkins old Mariette. The decision would be an easy one for me, but can you imagine standing on the dock in the morning, trying to choose which of your classic schooners to take sailing today? He'll have to go some to beat "Captain Eddie Weinberg" who once had 4 big schooners tied to his dock. I wonder who's next.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    What are some of the reasons for the perception that small schooners don't work out? Is it just because the rig is more complicated than a sloop? If that is the case, then size would not matter, until the sloop was so large that it becomes difficult to handle the sails. I believe in the old saying that " the satisfaction one gets from sailing is directly proportional to the number of strings you get to pull". For me, the fact that a schooner has more than 1 mast, and a variety of different sail combinations makes it more pleasurable to sail. So what if it doesn't point as high as a sloop? I may be wrong, but I don't think a 65 foot schooner points as well as a good 65 foot sloop either. So, does size really with a schooner rig? Not for me. My sailing is all about having fun, but even if I had to get somewhere on time, I would still take my little schooner over the same size sloop.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by okawbow View Post
    What are some of the reasons for the perception that small schooners don't work out? Is it just because the rig is more complicated than a sloop? If that is the case, then size would not matter, until the sloop was so large that it becomes difficult to handle the sails. I believe in the old saying that " the satisfaction one gets from sailing is directly proportional to the number of strings you get to pull". For me, the fact that a schooner has more than 1 mast, and a variety of different sail combinations makes it more pleasurable to sail. So what if it doesn't point as high as a sloop? I may be wrong, but I don't think a 65 foot schooner points as well as a good 65 foot sloop either. So, does size really with a schooner rig? Not for me. My sailing is all about having fun, but even if I had to get somewhere on time, I would still take my little schooner over the same size sloop.
    Jay covered a few good reasons back in post #7. Don't get me wrong Okawbow, I don't believe that small schooners don't work; they just don't work as well.

    I used to work for "Captain Eddie Weinberg" when he owned a fleet of classic schooners. He also had a 4th boat that we didn't consider to be part of the fleet. It was a schooner rigged Rhodes 33 that we took out occasionally when we weren't chartering or working on the boats. It was cute, it was fun, but compared to a stock R33, it couldn't sail its way out of its own wake. The interior of the boat was almost useless; there was no way to design a decent layout around a couple of sticks that were right in the middle of everything.

    One of the major pluses of a schooner is that lots of little sails mean you can sail with fewer hands and less muscle. This makes less of a difference on a 40 foot sloop where the biggest headsail can be handled by a large teenage girl. One of the major minuses of a schooner is the extra windage that comes with the rig; this is less critical on a large heavy boat than it is on a small one.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that unless what you want is a small schooner, you might be better off with a different rig on your small boat. That classic design of Thomas Gilmer's looks great as a schooner. I applaud you for going that way. Sailing is a lot more fun with more strings to pull, no matter how big you are!
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by SchoonerRat View Post
    you might be better off with a different rig on your small boat.
    Better off than what? I think statements about how schooners don't work under a certain size are rubbish. Yes, of course there are badly designed schooners of all sizes that can't sail out of their own way. But there are plenty of badly designed sloops (more actually) that can't sail worth a damm either. Taking the "better off" route to the extreme, we'd all be sailing carbon fibre whatsits......I am thankful for small schooners, Murry Petersen's Susan, Van Dine's Tancook and Gloucester, and Garden's Toadstool for example.....
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    I am thankful for small schooners. . .
    me too

    Fame

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Hawk is about the smallest well designed schooner I can think of....... Today we'd throw out the big diesel, re-arrange the ballast a bit and put two batteries under the seats just forward of the mainmast. A 6HP etec electric motor will fit under the sole aft and she's set for harbour sailing.



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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    I can see both viewpoints here. I think they should be bigger to reflect the reason for them... broken up sail area, but I always had such a desire to own Jersey Lily ......

    while looking for her I rediscovered this one

    Clarionet is 'the Chappelle schooner' but I think he added freeboard


    and this one

    .....this is New world but she had a mini version built as a prototype tester... Great hope.

    Last edited by John B; 04-15-2013 at 05:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    So far as "Hawk" and Hale Field are concerned, I knew both Hale and "Hawk" very well. In fact his daughter Linda and I were also sailing partners and close friends as were the other members of his family.
    I also know that, aside from being cute, "Hawk" was a great dissapointment under sail as she was prone to hobby horsing in a chop due to her short waterline and short run. Hale and Linda nearly lost her while racing in Long Beach due to her inabilty to recover quickly from a knock down that nearly sank as a result of her instability under a press of sail. The boat was a prime example of everything I have already stated concerning small schooners. I does give me great pain to have to say this as, aside from being a good friend, Hale was a competent designer having created his larger schooner "Lively" and his fore runner of "Seraffyn", "Renegade of Newport" which he and Lyle Hess put their heads together to create.

    My advise to those who feel the need to own a schooner is still, build or buy one that is truly proven to be a proper, smart sailing and seaworthy design.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 04-15-2013 at 05:48 PM.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Can't find my Jersey Lily photos but I see she's for sale again in asia somewhere




    http://leemarine.com/boats_for_sale....cate=&de=90729

    sails really well ,that one.

    42 ft ? yeah right... don't you just love broker speak.

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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post

    sails really well ,that one.

    42 ft ? yeah right... don't you just love broker speak.
    With a 23' waterline.......
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    It's marina speak too.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    This talk of size vs sail plan is interesting.

    I wonder what the smallest practical size / design for a square rigged vessel would be? (just out of interest).

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by VladTepes View Post
    I wonder what the smallest practical size / design for a square rigged vessel would be? (just out of interest).
    The Norwegians used them on many small boats.

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Al Mason's take on the small schooner....The Mason 31', essentially a Mason 30 (Venture class) with counter stern. She's 31' LOA, 22'11" LWL, beam is 9'4", draft 4'8", displacement 10,400 pounds, sail area 426 sq ft, ballast 3570 and she was designed in 1959.

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Al Mason's take. . .
    Do you have a small schooner Tad?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    In 1962 Ted Brewer designed Ingenue, a 32' racing schooner for L.A. Wheeler. She was Ted's second custom sailboat design. She had quite a racing career; second in the 66 Chicago-Mackinac (of a 93 boat class), first to finish and first overall in the 66 Pensacola Race, First class D 67 Tri-state, first and second in two years of St. Petersberg-Naples, first class B 69 St. Petersberg-Mexcio, first in class 74 Mystic Schooner Race. She is 32'7.5" LOA, 27' LWL, 9'7" Beam, 5'5" draft, 645 sq. ft. sail, Displacement 13,600 pounds with 4000 in ballast.

    ___________________________________
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    cogge ketch Blackfish
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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    and, what's your opinion of Bolger's Saint Valery?

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Peter Van Dine designed (and subsequently built and sold) a pair of schooner rigged Tancook Whaler's starting in 1972-73. They were offered at 25'6" LOA or 35'4". The picture below is of the smaller version. These were production glass boats. Her waterline length is 20', beam 6'4", draft 2'10", sail area 301 sq. ft., Displacement 3660 pounds with 1600 pounds of ballast. As mentioned by Jay above, the danger of heavily ballasted open boats cannot be overemphasized....They Sink!

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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    In 1939 William Garden designed and built Gleam for himself. Believe it or not she was originally a centerboarder with spoon bow, short counter, and gaff main with fidded topmast (I have that drawing someplace). She was later lengthened with clipper bow and overhang aft, the centerboard was removed (after several knockdowns) and replaced with a ballast keel, and she was re-rigged with marconi main. She became 33' on deck, with a waterline of 23', beam 8'6", draft 4'0", sail area 450 sq. ft and ballast 7500 pounds.

    ___________________________________
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    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
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  35. #35
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    Default Re: Schooner Munteyn Top

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Do you have a small schooner Tad?
    Why yes, yes I do, thank you for asking...

    This is Big Saturnina, called big as she's a larger version of a previous smaller design. To be built of strip cedar over laminated Mahogany frames. She is 26'9" LOA, 20'10" on the waterline, beam is 8'10", draft 3'9", sail area 382 in the three lowers, displacement 8500 pounds with 4000 in ballast.



    ___________________________________
    Tad
    cogge ketch Blackfish
    cat ketch Ratty
    http://www.tadroberts.ca
    http://blog.tadroberts.ca/
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