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Thread: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

  1. #1
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    Default Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Hi all,

    I'm about to purchase the Buzzards Bay 18 plans from MIT, anyone know if the construction plans will contain details around the components of the boat (materials, sizes, etc). I've heard that the plans tend to be minimal and should be accompanied by Herreshoff scantlings, but MIT are unable to provide these. Any ideas on where these are available?

    I was also looking for any information around the techniques used in building Herreshoff boats, are there any resources out there that will help me?

    Thanks in advance,

    Callum

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Wait for the plans. Scantlings are liable to be specified. Not unusual.

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Artisan Boatworks built Uncas with edge glued planking over oak:
    http://boatinglocal.com/reviews/revi...ds-bay-18.html
    http://www.artisanboatworks.com/wp-c...daysailers.pdf

    The large picture book "Herreshoff of Bristol" has workshop photos and some description of planking technique for a few models but I can't remember if the 18 was included.
    Last edited by Hugh Conway; 03-12-2013 at 09:59 PM.

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    I've got some really interesting information from the Uncas build and documents. Me being me though was wondering if there was any specific instructional texts out there.

    Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    If my memory serves me well, Halsey Herreshoff gave a paper at an early Chesapeake Sailing Yacht Symposium in which he discussed the Herreshoff Rules.

    I also think that the earlier editions of Skene's presented information on them.

    I believe that someone has commented sometime back that the Herreshoff Rules tended to give lighter scantlings than the Nevins rules , but this could be attributed to the availability and use of the very highest quality of wood ,and the very high standards of workmanship at the Herreshoff yard.

    Karl

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    So the rules themselves exist in a text somewhere?

    I'd like to think my standards will be up to the Herreshoff yard, but theory is always easier than practice But I do like the idea of building to the original designer's specifications, hence looking for more details on the Herreshoff Scantlings....even if it may be doubling up to what's in the plans from MIT.

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    The Skene's I was referring to is a bible to yacht designers; full title is: Skene's Elements of Yacht Design. The copy I was referring to that has both the Nevins and Herreshoff rules is a 1962 edition.

    My comments about standards of workmanship were not pointed at you, but to explain the reasons for difference between Herrshoff and Nevins. Having said that, it is unlikely that you will be able to acquire timber of the quality that Herreshoff did, and workmanship I am referring to is more than highly precise fits ; it goes to long experience and a deep knowledge of woodenboatbuilding practices as reflected in millions of details which few have today - or had then, for that matter. Not to put too fine a point on it, I suspect an experienced worker at the Herreshoff yard could build a yacht with very few detailed drawings using only the key dimensions of a few parts like keel, frames and planking, and the rest was in his head, eyes, and hands. This may explain why the plans you are considering , as you say,"tend to be minimal".

    Karl



    Karl

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    Thanks karl, I will try and track down a copy of skene's book. Sounds like a useful reference to have on the shelf in the workshop!

    You're spot on...I'm hoping to pick the brains of local builders too as although I have good enough techniques to follow detailed plans, its the experience of building 1000s of boats to an exceptional quality that I lack.

    So I'll get the book, buy the plans, seek advice from builders and hopefully the net result will be a boat that passes, at a distance, as a classic yacht from a bygone era.

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    I think there is scantling info comparing Nevins, Herreshoff and Lloyds in the back of Larry Pardey's The Hull book. Gives an over view. Older US scantlings assume White Oak for example in the US rather than European Oak as Lloyds might, so location and timber selection/ availability/ expectation makes an influence to be aware of comparing US and UK scantlings. Best book on traditional hull construction available, Larry doesn't like the boxed keel for locating the rib ends, thinking the pockets encourage rot in the keel, as somethings have been learn't over time in the last 100 years from observation on how boats last. Paul Gartside still does it this way though...

    Ed

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    isn't this a bit like trying to re produce a Shelby Cobra?

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Thanks Ed, will take a look at those books too (Pardey's/Gartside).

    Wizbang, the Shelby Cobra is a beautiful car, but alas cannot sail around the harbour in one with the kids

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Ah, Gartside isn't a book...although it looks like he would be a million times more useful than any text out there! Will take a look at the Pardey's.

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Most Herreshoff designs as far as I'm aware, are built by steam bending ribs properly with a strap over mold edges, then planked while upside down. You can get an overview of this, on a much smaller scale, if you buy and build the Herreshoff Columbia tender. The book is just £5 or so, but contains details and construction walk through of that great dinghy.

    The book, Sensible Cruising Designs, also has details of construction of Rozinante and many fittings which might prove useful.

    Ed

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Glad you mentioned sensible cruising designs as I've got a copy on order. Did think about starting with something small, so the Columbia will be worth looking into. Thanks again Ed.

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    The Columbia is lapstrake/ clinker planked as penned, but if you wanted to experience carvel build, the Joel White homage, the Catspaw, would be a worth a look. Don't know if its penned for frames over molds before planking (Herreshoff's preference, or they are seamed in after (most other peoples method). The Herreshoff method ensures the boat is the correct shape - as they designed some very special boats - and having it steamed in with a strap to compress it retains full strength in the rib, some of which is lost if simply bent in later. Joel was heavily Herreshoff influenced.

    On a smaller scale, The Joel White Haven is built framed over molds then planked carvel, in 'true' Herreshoff fashion, as it was inpart Joel's homage to the Herreshoff 12.5 itself. You can buy a book called Building the Haven as well as Building the Catspaw, which shows it in good detail, as well as some of the Herreshoff fittings for seeing how it was/ is best done, but on a smaller scale. There is a website for the Haven builders, plus the keel can be easily ordered off the shelf, as well as many blocks and fittings true to the Herreshoff 12.5. We saw a Haven launched, it was beautiful, fast and manouverable, a perfect family daysailer and easily trailered and looked after. The design is sold by Woodenboat. Full size pattens I think, so no lofting. Its size and centreboard makes it manageable to build, pay for and maintain in the off season for a Joel White/ Herreshoff fix. Gaff or marconi.

    Chuck Paine has a lovely Pisces 21 design, his homage to Herreshoff, which might also suit, as well as the smaller Redwing.

    http://www.chuckpaine.com/pdf/21PISCES21.pdf

    Just looked in sensible cruising designs and the lines and offsets of the buzzards bay 14, a scaled up 12.5 are there. Joel white also penned a similar bigger rarer Haven, called, the Flatfish class. The are more details of that one in the Joel white book of designs: Joel white, designer, builder, sailor.

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 03-14-2013 at 04:25 AM.

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    Some great info and food for thought there ed. Thank you.

    I just heard back from mit and it seems the plans are pretty detailed. There are 21 different plans available for the bb18, a materials list and 53 pages of offsets!!

    So going to get them ordered and as I'm in no rush, mull over them for a year or so while collecting as much other info as I can.

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Is a GT-19300 like a Shelby Cobra?? ;>
    “So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    If you don't have it already, you may want to consider looking at "The elements of boat strength" by Gerr. Different scantlings are provided based on the build method.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    Is a GT-19300 like a Shelby Cobra?? ;>
    Haha, if only!

    Sent from my Shelby Cobra using Tapatalk 2

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Quote Originally Posted by eflanders View Post
    If you don't have it already, you may want to consider looking at "The elements of boat strength" by Gerr. Different scantlings are provided based on the build method.
    Have seen that book around....currently on order after reading your post, thanks! Another addition to the bookshelf and hopefully my understanding.

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Skene's up to and including the 1981 printing includes Herreshoff's Rules for Wooden Yachts by Nat Herreshoff (1927). Really one of the best source's for construction detail per Herreshoff Manufacturing is WoodenBoat Magazine. See the extensive article on building a Alerion replica in #138, also the Herreshoff method pieces in #33, 45, and 100......
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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    Lloyd's rules are also reliable. Herreshoff fastenings specs are close to them. Bear in mind that both Nathaniel and L. Francis Herreshoff were well aware of the flexation of hulls at sea and designed their scantlings to work in harmony with this factor taken in to consideration. If a hull is too heavily planked in relation to frame scantlings the boat will suffer frame problems. By the same token, if the hull is too heavily framed it will suffer planking problems. The same holds true of fastenings. All components of a wooden hull must be orchestrated to work in harmony with one and other as well as the sea it sails in.
    Jay

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    Thanks, I've had the digital back catalogue of WB on order now for a couple of days. So once I get that in plus the other books mentioned I'll be set for.....a million and one new questions!

    Thanks all for your input and will digest it all for a few weeks, especially when the plans arrive.

    Just thinking about it, does 53 pages of off-sets sound right for 1 boat? That sounds like the details of the whole herreshoff fleet! Ah well wasn't too expensive and may help for herreshoff boat number 2

    I'm also looking to have the design modified to allow for an engine and swap the centre board for a deeper keel. Think Alex from Artisan did exactly that.

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    Default Re: Herreshoff scantlings and building tecniques

    My roommate has plans and offsets for the BB-15. (I'm a bad influence on him.) If I remember right each station has its own page in the offsets. Doesn't explain the 53, but it gets you closer. He ended up with a pretty thick packet too. If you know what you are doing all the information is there to build the boat, but it is not a good first boat. It deserves a certain delicate touch that is best practiced a bit before trying to replicate it. Not sure if you have built many boats before or not. I told him the same thing and now he's building a Hvalsoe 16 to work up to it. The BB-15 is coming up next.

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